Worst measuring loudspeaker?

[sigbergaudio]

Digression, but I wonder why they show the graph up to 60khz.

 

[thewas]

Digression, but I wonder why they show the graph up to 60khz.

Guess to show how high the first break up mode is pushed by the expensive tweeters.
Now the audibility of such is a very different topic...

 

[Purité Audio]

Hi-Fi News continue their crusade to only measure really awful loudspeakers, good to see them sticking by their guns, this week a Devore something or other £10k , FR isn’t too bad but … and they might have got away with it but for that pesky resonance.

DeVore Fidelity O/93 Loudspeaker Lab Report

Lab Report Sharing the same 28mm silk dome tweeter and similar 250mm pulp-coned bass/mid driver with the O/96 [HFN Apr '21] means there are parallels between this latter model and the lower sensitivity O/93. 'Lower' is not 'low', however, for DeVore still rates the O/93 at a high 93dB/1W/1m...

www.hifinews.com

Keith

 

[Dialectic]

Hi-Fi News continue their crusade to only measure really awful loudspeakers, good to see them sticking by their guns, this week a Devore something or other £10k , FR isn’t too bad but … and they might have got away with it but for that pesky resonance.

DeVore Fidelity O/93 Loudspeaker Lab Report

Lab Report Sharing the same 28mm silk dome tweeter and similar 250mm pulp-coned bass/mid driver with the O/96 [HFN Apr '21] means there are parallels between this latter model and the lower sensitivity O/93. 'Lower' is not 'low', however, for DeVore still rates the O/93 at a high 93dB/1W/1m...

www.hifinews.com

Keith

It's the horrendous resonance that makes these speakers sound like music.

 

[subframe]

It's the horrendous resonance that makes these speakers sound like music.

You’ve heard them?

 

[Dialectic]

You’ve heard them?

No, I haven't heard them, and I was being facetious.

But some speaker companies, such as DeVore and Audio Note UK, tout resonance in cabinets as a virtue that makes their speakers sound more like real musical instruments. That, of course, is silly.

I have heard Audio Note UK speakers, and they are not good.

 

[MattHooper]

No, I haven't heard them, and I was being facetious.

But some speaker companies, such as DeVore and Audio Note UK, tout resonance in cabinets as a virtue that makes their speakers sound more like real musical instruments. That, of course, is silly.

I have heard Audio Note UK speakers, and they are not good.

Devore doesn't really tout it's resonances. They are there, and certainly perhaps do color the sound, but they aren't in the "we like resonances" school per se.

I demoed a huge number of loudspeakers in the $5,000 to $15,000 range during my last speaker crusade and the Devore O/93s made the top of my list. They were one of the most enjoyable speakers I've listened to. One of the traits that stood out to me was the richness and sense of body. Take piano recordings. When many piano recordings are played on stereo systems I get this "detached keys floating in the air" impression. Like they've been detached from the actual body of the piano. As someone who grew up playing piano (we had four in the house at one point) and continued in to adulthood, this always annoyed me. Yet when I played certain piano tracks on the Devore O/96 or O/93, it was the first time I had the sense of piano keys striking a resonating body of the instrument. It transported me to that feeling of sitting down in front of the piano in a way no other speaker quite managed. That kind of stuff gets my attention. Others will look at the graphs and give them a pass...which I know is generally how it goes for most here. That's cool.

 

[thewas]

Yet when I played certain piano tracks on the Devore O/96 or O/93, it was the first time I had the sense of piano keys striking a resonating body of the instrument.

Possibly due to their lively cabinets

DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/93 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar: Measurements (from January 2019, Vol.42 No.1)

www.stereophile.com

DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements I used DRA Labs' MLSSA system and a calibrated DPA 4006 microphone to measure the DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96's frequency response in the farfield, and an Earthworks QTC-40 for the nearfield and spatially averaged room responses.

www.stereophile.com

The only problem is that such "effect generators" usually don't work equally well for other recordings and instruments.
Generally though I have seen worse measurements from many "high-end" loudspeakers, so if some people like their sound I wouldn't talk them out of them.

 

[Dialectic]

Devore doesn't really tout it's resonances.

On the contrary:

How about the wood speaker's enclosures vs other materials? Why do you prefer wooden chassis over other materials?

As above--materials have a sound, and likewise enclosure tuning techniques have a sound. I've never been a fan of massive over-damped cabinets, I find they need to be played loud to "wake up" and require a lot of amplifier power. All my designs are medium mass and employ careful tuning of panels rather than critical damping--and this imparts a livelier quality to the sound, energizing a listening room more like real instruments do. [. . .]

Exclusive interview with John DeVore - DeVore Fidelity

Mono & Stereo High-End Audio Magazine: Magico - Nagra - Tidal Audio - Wilson Audio - MSB - Totaldac - Living Voice - Taiko Audio - Aries Cerat -Thrax

www.monoandstereo.com

 

[MattHooper]

On the contrary:

Exclusive interview with John DeVore - DeVore Fidelity

Mono & Stereo High-End Audio Magazine: Magico - Nagra - Tidal Audio - Wilson Audio - MSB - Totaldac - Living Voice - Taiko Audio - Aries Cerat -Thrax

www.monoandstereo.com

Ah, thanks!

I know the resonances are there, and that Devore knows it and is fine with it since the end result is what he wanted to hear. But I'd forgotten that he spoke that directly about the contribution of the resonances.

In any case...I guess he knows what he's doing then

And as I mentioned, I disagree with your conclusion that it is "silly" that resonance or coloration in a speaker design can make things sound more like real instruments.

If we are talking about the accurate or realistic reproduction of instruments, ideally of course there would be no necessary contribution from the speaker. It would be invisible. But that would presume first that what the speaker is being fed is perfectly representative of the real thing (e.g. the recording). But given the often lossy quality of recordings most recorded instruments will be lacking compared to the real thing in various ways. Among them, I find most instrument reproduction on consumer-sized speakers to be reductive and lacking the body and richness of the real thing.
A speaker that adds back in a sense of body, density and presence via cannily integrated resonances therefore can, in principle, recreate *some* of the characteristics of the real thing.

That's exactly what I found to be the case with the Devore speakers in many instances. That includes drums as well.

The only problem is that such "effect generators" usually don't work equally well for other recordings and instruments.

That's certainly the reasonable intuition. This idea that a subtle but audible coloration will only make X or Y sound good, but other things not so much.

But then...that's precisely the situation we are in with respect to recordings. If you have the most accurate system in the world, you are going to hear recordings of voices and various instruments sounding more natural on some tracks, less so on others. So...it's not like one gets out of this problem.

So it comes down to the individual and whether he/she finds the coloration makes a majority of what he listens to more enjoyable or not.

Personally I auditioned the Devore speakers numerous times and played everything from jazz, R&B, Symphonic, Pop, Electronica, Funk etc and I found the richness and presence on those speakers were enjoyable through all those recordings.

Most of the time I found the added richness was very well integrated, not obvious but just producing sounds that seemed a bit more real or enjoyable. However on other stuff, for instance a recording of Johnny Cash's voice, which my Thiels rendered very accurately, there was a bit of obvious added emphasis, a bit more chestiness to his voice. It was already a rich recording so it didn't need any more. On the other hand, I found other voices seemed to benefit from that added richness, giving the vocalists a more compelling corporeal presence. So, again...some vocals sound better, some worse, but that is also the case on an accurate system given the variation in recordings.

 

[Mart68]

Hi-Fi News continue their crusade to only measure really awful loudspeakers, good to see them sticking by their guns, this week a Devore something or other £10k , FR isn’t too bad but … and they might have got away with it but for that pesky resonance.

DeVore Fidelity O/93 Loudspeaker Lab Report

Lab Report Sharing the same 28mm silk dome tweeter and similar 250mm pulp-coned bass/mid driver with the O/96 [HFN Apr '21] means there are parallels between this latter model and the lower sensitivity O/93. 'Lower' is not 'low', however, for DeVore still rates the O/93 at a high 93dB/1W/1m...

www.hifinews.com

Keith

'Batman Emerges'. They sort of shifted him up the FR a bit compared to other Dark Knight inspired speakers, but he's there.

Ten grand too. At least they are an easy load, and sensitive. Save some money on the amplifier.

 

[GXAlan]

But some speaker companies, such as DeVore and Audio Note UK, tout resonance in cabinets as a virtue that makes their speakers sound more like real musical instruments. That, of course, is silly.

I will say that Onkyo makes the same comments.

But it actually measures nearly identically to the JBL 708P with restricted bass

Onkyo/Takamine D-TK10 vs JBL 708P

Onkyo D-TK10 “Vintage” Speaker Review (vs. JBL 708P) TLDR? They’re great. No they’re not really vintage but they are the last flagship speaker from the pre-bankrupt Onkyo. Eighteen years ago, Onkyo launched a statement pair of speakers, the D-TK10. Using an enclosure made by Takamine (the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[goldenears]

Ah, thanks!

I know the resonances are there, and that Devore knows it and is fine with it since the end result is what he wanted to hear. But I'd forgotten that he spoke that directly about the contribution of the resonances.

In any case...I guess he knows what he's doing then

And as I mentioned, I disagree with your conclusion that it is "silly" that resonance or coloration in a speaker design can make things sound more like real instruments.

If we are talking about the accurate or realistic reproduction of instruments, ideally of course there would be no necessary contribution from the speaker. It would be invisible. But that would presume first that what the speaker is being fed is perfectly representative of the real thing (e.g. the recording). But given the often lossy quality of recordings most recorded instruments will be lacking compared to the real thing in various ways. Among them, I find most instrument reproduction on consumer-sized speakers to be reductive and lacking the body and richness of the real thing.
A speaker that adds back in a sense of body, density and presence via cannily integrated resonances therefore can, in principle, recreate *some* of the characteristics of the real thing.

That's exactly what I found to be the case with the Devore speakers in many instances. That includes drums as well.




That's certainly the reasonable intuition. This idea that a subtle but audible coloration will only make X or Y sound good, but other things not so much.

But then...that's precisely the situation we are in with respect to recordings. If you have the most accurate system in the world, you are going to hear recordings of voices and various instruments sounding more natural on some tracks, less so on others. So...it's not like one gets out of this problem.

So it comes down to the individual and whether he/she finds the coloration makes a majority of what he listens to more enjoyable or not.

Personally I auditioned the Devore speakers numerous times and played everything from jazz, R&B, Symphonic, Pop, Electronica, Funk etc and I found the richness and presence on those speakers were enjoyable through all those recordings.

Most of the time I found the added richness was very well integrated, not obvious but just producing sounds that seemed a bit more real or enjoyable. However on other stuff, for instance a recording of Johnny Cash's voice, which my Thiels rendered very accurately, there was a bit of obvious added emphasis, a bit more chestiness to his voice. It was already a rich recording so it didn't need any more. On the other hand, I found other voices seemed to benefit from that added richness, giving the vocalists a more compelling corporeal presence. So, again...some vocals sound better, some worse, but that is also the case on an accurate system given the variation in recordings.

I like the way you explained that.

Given the choice of only a single set of speakers for the living room, I'd have to go with accurate however. Wish I had a listening room and enough cash for multiple sets of speakers, would be interesting.

 

[Purité Audio]

Those boys at Hi-Fi News have done it again, look at these:-


Only £20k seems almost reasonable.
Keith

 

[thewas]

Those boys at Hi-Fi News have done it again, look at these:-


Only £20k seems almost reasonable.
Keith

People, please post the source/links too, for above measurements

PS Audio aspen FR20 Loudspeaker Lab Report

Lab Report Is the FR20 a diminutive FR30 [HFN Jun '22]? In terms of the crossover points, ABR performance, distortion and impedance trend it is, while the physical separation of woofers and mid/treble drivers in the FR20 has more to do with PS Audio utilising the floor boundary reinforcement to...

www.hifinews.com

 

[MarkS]

"The instant impression is of a free-breathing sound, with weight and bags of detail, plus fine imaging with impressive width and depth."

 

[Mart68]

Those boys at Hi-Fi News have done it again, look at these:-


Only £20k seems almost reasonable.
Keith

what have PS Audio got against 3Khz? Some sort of vendetta? Does music sound better with that frequency removed?

 

[Purité Audio]

They much prefer 5kHz.
Keith

 

[fpitas]

what have PS Audio got against 3Khz? Some sort of vendetta? Does music sound better with that frequency removed?

3kHz sucks. Everybody knows that.

 

[mhardy6647]

3kHz sucks. Everybody knows that.

There's apparently some support for this notion.

Hi-Fi: What Does It Sound Like? | The Ivory Tower

Hi-Fi news, gear reviews, and interviews

parttimeaudiophile.com

1.2K-3.5K -- Is nearing the end of the midrange and creeping up on treble. Hi-fi gear that emphasizes or de-emphasizes this area will impart either a forwardness that may become aggressive or conversely have a very relaxed sounding nature. 3K is usually considered the center of where our ears measure as the most sensitive. Screaming infants and screechy car breaks OWN 3K.

The author is one Dave McNair, who apparently has some cred(?).

Home

www.davemcnairmastering.com

So -- that PS Audio loudspeaker should sound relaxed, just like Uncle Paul himself.