Working from the speakers backwards

[polmuaddib]

Also, I vote going active, since you are going to get more sound for the money.
If you can find some wireless options, that might be good, too. Less equipment, only speakers...

But if you like the esthetics of preamplifiers, dacs, power amps, cables, HIFI racks... go for it.
I am cursed with having love for those classic HIFI devices and passive speakers and I don't like the look of studio monitors for home.
You figure out what you like.
Many roads to a good sound.

 

[Holmz]

Also, I vote going active, since you are going to get more sound for the money.
If you can find some wireless options, that might be good, too. Less equipment, only speakers...

But if you like the esthetics of preamplifiers, dacs, power amps, cables, HIFI racks, TurnTables... go for it.
…

There is always a 1/2 way approach… as ^I edited in^.

And for paragraph 1… It is both “more sound”, and generally “better sound” for the money.

 

[Chrispy]

There is always a 1/2 way approach… as ^I edited in^.

And for paragraph 1… It is both “more sound”, and generally “better sound” for the money.

OTOH how many active speakers accommodate with a mm/mc RIAA section?

 

[NiagaraPete]

Okay, so I'm a Genelec fan boy but. If I were to have a budget of 10K, I'd look at the Neumann KH420 and the D&D 8c before I made any decision. I'd still probably go for the 8361 (700 watt bass) Vs 8351 (250 watt bass).

 

[Triliza]

All I want is warm, rich sound

I think you need to define in more detail what you mean by that. Do you simply mean great speakers, or do you imply you may like speakers with particular characteristics, bigger perceived soundstage, some kind of dip on the frequency response, horns (some people love their jbl's), or something else? A great part of what you already like will be defined by what you currently own, but that can change quickly as you'll adapt to whatever you decide to buy.

I have come also to believe that active speakers are the way to go for speakers, unless of course you enjoy what's involved with a passive system, and that is more than fine. The problem with actives is that they are expensive (not a problem with your budget) and you usually need to spend about a year on ASR (reading the reviews of 8361A or KH420 can change your definition of beauty) to accept the idea that you like how they look (especially for the Genelecs) and can live with them in your living room.

 

[Peluvius]

Okay, so I'm a Genelec fan boy but. If I were to have a budget of 10K, I'd look at the Neumann KH420 and the D&D 8c before I made any decision. I'd still probably go for the 8361 (700 watt bass) Vs 8351 (250 watt bass).

I would look at them, then buy the 8361 if I could find a pair for 10k A pair of those would set me back 18k here in Aus. A pair of the 8351s with a couple of subs would get you most of the way there with 6k to spare. Keeping in mind the OPs inability to audition speakers.

 

[NiagaraPete]

No

I would look at them, then buy the 8361 if I could find a pair for 10k A pair of those would set me back 18k here in Aus. A pair of the 8351s with a couple of subs would get you most of the way there with 6k to spare. Keeping in mind the OPs inability to audition speakers.

Weird but depending on dealer the 8361 is cheaper at 5k each.

 

[Tahoe]

I would normally say listen to speakers. Most speakers I've spent any real money on were after I heard some and wanted them. OTOH, my last purchase was a pair of F208's without hearing them first. I've been very happy with them. For the room size you have subs might be needed or desirable. Just how large is your room?

Actives are a good way to go, but maybe not for large speakers. Theoretically, they make better use of power, and would have power amps sized to make maximum use of drivers. In practice many of them seem to skimp too close to the edge on power in my opinion. I'd rather have a bit more amp than I need than not quite enough.

If you are going to buy sight unheard, I'd say F208s are one of your safer choices.

Plenty of good power amps are available that will suit. The next hardest part is probably a streamer you like.

It's... Large.

The room is 30'x26', with 10' ceilings that vault to 15'. The room is devided by a 14' wide fireplace with walkways on either side, separating the seating area into a 14'x30' space. The speakers will either be in front of the fireplace with limited clearance, or on the sides about 15' apart.

Lots of positive words on the genelecs... Could they handle a space this size with a sub or two tossed in?

 

[Doodski]

The room is devided by a 14' wide fireplace with walkways on either side, separating the seating area into a 14'x30' space. The speakers will either be in front of the fireplace with limited clearance, or on the sides about 15' apart.

That is not a good arrangement. The speakers should have a wall behind them or they will suffer in the bass region. Then the porting of the speaker comes into mind; is it front or rear ported? Perhaps a quick layout/drawing of the room is in order to determine if you are going in the wrong direction.

 

[Peluvius]

It's... Large.

The room is 30'x26', with 10' ceilings that vault to 15'. The room is devided by a 14' wide fireplace with walkways on either side, separating the seating area into a 14'x30' space. The speakers will either be in front of the fireplace with limited clearance, or on the sides about 15' apart.

Lots of positive words on the genelecs... Could they handle a space this size with a sub or two tossed in?

Not a simple answer. This link might help you get a feel for where to start: https://www.genelec.com/correct-monitors

 

[Holmz]

OTOH how many active speakers accommodate with a mm/mc RIAA section?

OK I forgot to add phono stage.

I would look at them, then buy the 8361 if I could find a pair for 10k A pair of those would set me back 18k here in Aus. A pair of the 8351s with a couple of subs would get you most of the way there with 6k to spare. Keeping in mind the OPs inability to audition speakers.

18k is not too bad considering GST and duty.

I don’t know where @Tahoe is at, but I would think that demoing and listening to speakers is not as much of a problem for them as it is for us.
(I was assuming central California.)

Unless one is “in the big smoke” like Sydney or Melbourne, and maybe Adelaide, Brissy or Perth, then there is a not a lot to find in Australia and one can be a long ways away from a demo.

And then back to auditioning… the last audition I did was at shop I have been going to off and on for ~30 years.
They played one set of speakers, and the next set (the more expensive ones) I saw that they cranked in a few extra dB on the preamp’s display.

So I was pretty sure that it was going to be difficult to make an easy decision. Luckily I was only window shopping and I exited with a couple of LPs as the usual dues to pay.

It's... Large.

The room is 30'x26', with 10' ceilings that vault to 15'. The room is devided by a 14' wide fireplace with walkways on either side, separating the seating area into a 14'x30' space. The speakers will either be in front of the fireplace with limited clearance, or on the sides about 15' apart.

Lots of positive words on the genelecs... Could they handle a space this size with a sub or two tossed in?

That is not a small room…
The only gennies I would consider are the 8361s and subs.

I am not sure on the Bucharts, D&D, Kii, Kef etc. There are a lot of good powered (*Active) speakers in the 3-10 k$ range.

Where abouts are you?
How hard would it be to travel to speakers?
I would want to be pretty convinced at $10k, but the Gennies seems to show up around 8k/pair used, and Sweetwater and BHphoto sell them for 5k/ea.

So one would not take to bad of a flogging in percentage.

 

[Tahoe]

I think you need to define in more detail what you mean by that. Do you simply mean great speakers, or do you imply you may like speakers with particular characteristics, bigger perceived soundstage, some kind of dip on the frequency response, horns (some people love their jbl's), or something else? A great part of what you already like will be defined by what you currently own, but that can change quickly as you'll adapt to whatever you decide to buy.

I have come also to believe that active speakers are the way to go for speakers, unless of course you enjoy what's involved with a passive system, and that is more than fine. The problem with actives is that they are expensive (not a problem with your budget) and you usually need to spend about a year on ASR (reading the reviews of 8361A or KH420 can change your definition of beauty) to accept the idea that you like how they look (especially for the Genelecs) and can live with them in your living room.

I'm partial to a a certain tonality, though I'd struggle to define it beyond 'warm'. I'll say this - the last time I tried putting together a stereo system by myself I went with Klipsch, entirely due to stupid reasons - marketing and the beautiful copper color of their woofers.

Well, turns out, I hate their sound. Bright, almost harsh treble - entirely the opposite of that I'm going for. I want prominent mids, silky vocals and more diffuse treble, low-hitting, powerful but not muddy bass. I don't want the whole stage to be dull or loose it's dynamic feel - viscosity like heavy cream, not honey.

I'm technically useless to describe it much beyond that, I'm afraid.
Thanks to all for their input on this - it's a joy to get more educated minds chewing on this problem with me.

 

[DanielT]

Speaking of large rooms and matching large speakers. Reviews and tests of large speakers are unfortunately relatively rare ASR. That despite the fact that it is one of the most common requests that Amir should test more of, bigger speakers that is. But it is completely understandable that this does not happen very often. Heavy, awkward to carry. Not fun for Amir's back.

 

[coonmanx]

Good thing I did not say Klipsch. How about some brand new Cerwin Vegas. Their top of the line speakers have either a 12" or a 15" woofer so bass will never be an issue.

Personally I have not heard these newer CV's. They are made in China now but still appear to be of decent quality. Not sure where you might be able to audition them at all.

 

[Holmz]

I'm partial to a a certain tonality, though I'd struggle to define it beyond 'warm'. I'll say this - the last time I tried putting together a stereo system by myself I went with Klipsch, entirely due to stupid reasons - marketing and the beautiful copper color of their woofers.

Well, turns out, I hate their sound. Bright, almost harsh treble - entirely the opposite of that I'm going for. I want prominent mids, silky vocals and more diffuse treble, low-hitting, powerful but not muddy bass. I don't want the whole stage to be dull or loose it's dynamic feel - viscosity like heavy cream, not honey.

I'm technically useless to describe it much beyond that, I'm afraid.
Thanks to all for their input on this - it's a joy to get more educated minds chewing on this problem with me.

Well do you have anything in place as a stereo now?

One could get a UMIK and load REW and at least figure what the room is doing, and play around with different position for the speakers.
It would also allow one to get an idea on the frequency response (FR) of what you have, and then that helps to define what you like or dislike about the current set up.

There is certainly no dishonour in going a bit slow with a build that is costly and should be lasting decades…

Then if you had say a DAC with an EQ built in, one could futz around with the EQ and then show what they preferred in terms of sound (FR).

If that room has lots of glass, brick and a fireplace, it is likely that whatever speakers you go with, will end up being somewhat at the mercy of the room.
So figuring where they best go, and what room treatments (if any) are abided in a “Wife Acceptance Factor” (WAF) can be investigated.

Hence like Poseidon’s trident, there are a few directions of investigation to spear off towards, which can be done somewhat in any order.

 

[coonmanx]

Speaking of large rooms and matching large speakers. Reviews and tests of large speakers are unfortunately relatively rare ASR. That despite the fact that it is one of the most common requests that Amir should test more of, bigger speakers that is. But it is completely understandable that this does not happen very often. Heavy, awkward to carry. Not fun for Amir's back.

Definitely. And some brand new CV's would be at the top of that list. I just suggested them, even though I have not heard them. But I am curious...

 

[mcdn]

The F208 is an excellently engineered speaker with wide and even dispersion, low distortion and good power handling. It does have the warmish Revel house sound due to the choice of room response slope, and will respond well to any frequency response tweaking you might use.

given the size of your room, consider getting a couple of subwoofers to even out the bass response - this will also allow a bit of bass level tuning, and would be needed with any speakers, not just the revels.

so how about:

1. Revel F208 speakers ($3850)
2. Buckeye NC252MP ($579)
3. 2 x SVS PB-1000 Pro ($800 each)
4. MiniDSP SHD Studio Flex for room correction, input switching and basic streaming ($549) < edited to Flex, microphone also required for $75. The SHD Studio is digital outputs only.

The MiniDSP will let you tweak the response to taste, the subs will fill in the low end in your big space as well as evening out room modes, the Buckeye amp is a steal.

 

[Marc v E]

Select a few brands's speakers in your price range that measure well. Experience which you like the sound of. Definately listen to the Revels if you never heard them.

What I learned from listening sessions is that I needed to spend a huge amount of my budget on speakers to achieve what I want. That's why I would spend 80% of my money on speakers plus sub(s) and the rest on amp and streamer.

Btw: I could buy Genelec or B&O blind because I know how some of their speakers sound. And I know I prefer active speakers. And that minidsp for eq and sub(s) is indispensible.

I think I wouldn't buy a speaker without ever listening to them if it costs more than 1000 euros.
I would buy an amp just on specs, same for a dac but then based on user friendliness and specs. Just make sure one of your components is able to do eq.

 

[DanielT]

One more suggestion. These seem really good if you're thinking about passive speakers:
Dual eight-inch basses, good FR, good sensitivity.



$3200/pair (around that price)

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: Monitor Audio Silver 500 7G Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

Monitor Audio Silver 500 7g

Nice measurements today from Soundstage hifi…someone get Amir the 100 7g https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2685:nrc-measurements-monitor-audio-silver-500-7g-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153

audiosciencereview.com

 

[DanielT]

..
Neumann KH420
...

...or... KH 420 at 10k

They seem really good.

Read on another forum that the amplifier in KH 420 is based on:

https://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/tda7293.pdf

Relatively high distortion in the highest frequencies with that amp in KH 420 , but who hears 20kHz?

TDA7293:

A bit fascinating though. A normal amp test here on ASR and that amp would get a poor rating but the Neumann KH420 with that amp gets top marks.

Edit:
It just shows what many usually point out, i.e. enough power on the amplifier (so they are not driven into clipping), then super low distortion level (on the amplifier) is not super important. It is the speaker distortion itself, however, that is the challenge for manufacturers.
Plus inaudible or very low noise level, which can be a problem with active speakers, in any case with slightly cheaper "simpler" models.