Working from the speakers backwards

[DanielT]

What I would say about the fairly large space is that it might favour wide dispersion speakers over narrow ones if the idea is to get an even sound in many spaces. Or conversely if the listening position is fixed it would work very well with narrow dispersion speakers, as sidewall reflections would be minimal.

So, @Tahoe, consider the way you'll use the speakers when deciding which to audition in your home first

Tip, some general discussion about dispersion here:

Select dispersion pattern

Which dispersion pattern had you chosen? If we play with the idea that you would use a waveguide. Choose vertical and horizontal dispersion and feel free to justify your choice. For inspiration here you can see different waveguides...

audiosciencereview.com

Edit:
There are many similar threads on ASR on the same topic, very interesting I think.

 

[sigbergaudio]

This is fairly big but not THAT big. 70-80m^2 with 3 meters from the speakers - I would be more concerned with getting managable acoustics than being able to fill the room with sound.

You should set aside some of the budget for room treatment.

 

[DanielT]

This is fairly big but not THAT big. 70-80m^2 with 3 meters from the speakers - I would be more concerned with getting managable acoustics than being able to fill the room with sound.

You should set aside some of the budget for room treatment.

I was a little enchanted by 200-300 m³, read a little too quickly. Got in my head that it was m^2 instead of m³, sorry.

70-80m^2 on the other hand, as you say, and three meters listening distance. It is clear that there are sensible home HiFi speakers that can fix that.

Tip:
This is easy to use:

Metric Conversion charts and calculators

www.metric-conversions.org

What I would say about the fairly large space is that it might favour wide dispersion speakers over narrow ones if the idea is to get an even sound in many spaces. Or conversely if the listening position is fixed it would work very well with narrow dispersion speakers, as sidewall reflections would be minimal.

So, @Tahoe, consider the way you'll use the speakers when deciding which to audition in your home first

Speaking of dispersion. The topic was really relevant at this year's event. You can watch that video even if you don't do DIY. Exciting speakers:

Here is a thread about that event, where some participating, DIYers, of the speakers in the video also comment on their constructions:
(plus some more videos from the event)

2022 Parts Express [Speaker Design Competition] - Over $300 Category

Fun, inspiring video. Good variety of different types of design principles and sizes of speakers.:) That passive crossover filter, a speaker in the video, doesn't look very cheap, so to speak::) I would have been curious to listen to those:

audiosciencereview.com

 

[LTig]

What do I know. Perhaps Genelec can give tips and advice on one of their models, which is cheaper than the Genelecs 8361a which gives money over to add a number of subwoofers? Hm..OP's budget and a listening room of 200-300 m³...well I don't know.

S360a comes to my mind.

 

[DanielT]

S360a comes to my mind.

As the Genelec rep says about the S360A, 2:00 into the video, I'll summarize what's being said:
SPL 118 dB one meter, down to 40 Hz then, which it is tuned to. If you bass manage it, say 80-90 Hz, you get another 3 dB.

If you want high SPL but no large speakers, this is a good alternative. Genelec has other models that can handle 118 dB SPL, but then they are about twice as big.

For those who like to play at high volume. If you like lots of bass just add subwoofers.

4-6 m listening distance then they really shine even if you can listen to them closer

_____
This is also mentioned in the video:

GLM Software - Genelec.com

Since 2006, GLM software has offered precise calibration and control of our SAM Monitoring systems to minimise unwanted room influences and improve workflow, helping your audio productions sound on-point, everywhere. More recently, GLM expanded to offer GRADE Room Acoustic Reports, further...

www.genelec.com

With that SPL level , the ability of S360A to play at high volume without sounding bad when you have a relatively long (for home HiFi long) listening distance. About what Genelec's representative mentions in the video.

If you buy the S360A, there will be money left over to buy two really capable subwoofers. It just has to be enough for the OP and his listening room. I have a hard time seeing anything else.

Beyond that, as mentioned by many in this threads. Fix with room acoustics and EQ if desired and needed. It could probably,with great probability,be a really good sound system, sound solution then.

Here more information:

At higher SPL, the distortion increases, of course. But still good performance, I think. I would have definitely added subwoofers to them.

Amir:
"Genelec S360 Listening Tests
Due to heavy weight logistics, I had to listen to the S360 in our living room setting as you can see in the review picture above. This is a very live room/surrounding so different than my usual setup where there is for example a thick floor carpet. Still, performance was excellent with the single S360 capable of filling the entire room with authority. Bass is not super deep but what is there is very clean. I was only able to get the clipping light to blink once on a single track but could not detect any impairment."

Plus more info on them here, FR, dispersion and so on:

Genelec S360 Review (Studio Monitor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Genelec S360 (S360A) studio monitor. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $3995 each. It comes in both white and black. As you can see, it is quite a departure from other Genelec speakers with rectangular shape and non-coaxial drivers...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[sigbergaudio]

So the 118dB claim seems a bit suspect if Amir measured significant distortion at 106dB? I see their long term max output is rated to 112dB per pair. So that seems consistent with Amir's measurements (which I assume is one speaker).

 

[DanielT]

So the 118dB claim seems a bit suspect if Amir measured significant distortion at 106dB? I see their long term max output is rated to 112dB per pair. So that seems consistent with Amir's measurements (which I assume is one speaker).

Could it be exaggerating performance figures? Not the first time in that case:

Speaker Sensitivity: Advertised vs Measured

Speaker sensitivity is an important aspect that can sway potential buyers towards or away from a specific model or brand. Thus, it gives an incentive for manufacturers to fudge their numbers; this fudging can be accomplished via the frequency range, weighting, in-room estimates, etc. I decided...

audiosciencereview.com

Klipsch and their stated sensitivity VS reality is fairly well known, but that Genelec would exaggerate the SPL, hm.. Maybe it's the case that you can play at the SPL level even though it sounds too bad to listen to?

 

[Butter]

I was very glad to find this thread, as my new space will be 12,000 cu ft or 340 m3. And I don't have speakers selected yet. Fortunately, my MLP will be only 16 ft or 5m and I tend to listen at moderate volume maybe 75-85db with peaks I suppose to 95db I'm not sure. I have LS60's in my main living room, which is small, maybe 2500 ct ft or 70m3.
I will of course try my LS60's with and without subs in support, and see how they perform. But I think they would be underpowered for my larger room and listening distance.

My working theory is I should look for some options like say:

• An HT 3.2 setup with say Kef R11 Meta (I assume are in the works), a large matching Center channel and couple subs. This gives many cones of "displacement" and still a nice dispersion from the UniQ.
• Blade 2 metas
• I will also demo Dynaudio which I have some smaller ones in my other room and I like their sound.
• And maybe Paradigm, but so far I only like their Persona series which is pretty pricey and does not measure well.

Honestly, once I put my LS60's and older Dynaudios into the new space and run REW before and after EQ... then probably I will better understand what the room requires. Or what mistakes to avoid. Again, thanks for all the helpful comments in this thread. I learned a lot.

 

[Holmz]

…
… and I tend to listen at moderate volume maybe 75-85db with peaks I suppose to 95db I'm not sure.
…

The free NIOSH app works on iPhone and iPad.

 

[Balle Clorin]

How large is your room?
Listening distance at 10 f dictates some 60-70 cm² room at least if I get it right and the big height makes the volume even larger.
I think you will need bigger speakers.

Are your Room 8x8 cm?. He he.. By the way I listen at 10 feet in 25m2, not ideal but no problem , but I got Trinnov and another Revel

For som strange reason KEF speakers always underwelm me, just booring and no excitement , that includes R11 and Blade Meta. strange since I used to love the KEFs from the 80 and 90s, probably my ears are too old for neutral speakers.

 

[Sokel]

Are your Room 8x8 cm?

At least such a room would easy to treat
Thanks for the correction!

 

[srrxr71]

Unfortunately, they don't demo anything without me agreeing to a consultation. Not a very friendly way of doing business, but the only other dealer in my area only carries Paradigm, Sonus Faber, and Wilson speakers - which is limiting, particularly when none rank too highly on this forum's testing and I cant afford anything Wilson makes.

If the fee included trying up to 3 pairs in your own home it might be worth it. The lack of Revel though is a problem.

 

[srrxr71]

Generaly agreed but here it seems that the space is large,the 10K budget will not be enough for the right Genelecs (given that the subs if exist will play their designated and not try to full mid-bass).

Yes absolutely and I learned this the hard way.

I hate to say it but even 8361 cannot be much more than 2m away for full impact.

Then I tried to escalate with subs ended up with 2x 7360 and was about to order a 7380. Wrong move. Trying to fix a mid bass issue with more subs.

 

[DanielT]

Regarding the listening distance to the speakers, a comment about this calculator I saw on another forum:

HiFi Loudspeaker Design

www.mh-audio.nl

"This with distance and sound pressure level in rooms is a very misunderstood area. In a normal listening room, the listener is placed in the so-called reverberation field, where the room contributions dominate over the direct sound contribution. This means that the listening distance has little significance for the sound pressure level at distances above about two meters.

Exactly how it all turns out depends on the speaker's directional index, the room's equivalent absorption area and to a lesser extent on the distance, but between the thumb and forefinger you can say that the sound pressure level in the listening position from a speaker in a reasonably normal setup roughly corresponds to the sound pressure level at one meter measured in free field . If you e.g. has a speaker with the voltage sensitivity 90 dB, 2.83 V, 1 m i.e. 1 W in 8 ohms, then you have about 100 dB in the listening position for 10 W in 8 ohms. With two speakers, the sound pressure level increases by approx. 3 dB."

faktiskt.io • Visa tråd - Den feta trevägaren (f18/f25/f32)

 

[srrxr71]

It's... Large.

The room is 30'x26', with 10' ceilings that vault to 15'. The room is devided by a 14' wide fireplace with walkways on either side, separating the seating area into a 14'x30' space. The speakers will either be in front of the fireplace with limited clearance, or on the sides about 15' apart.

Lots of positive words on the genelecs... Could they handle a space this size with a sub or two tossed in?

I’ve escalated the size of my system and still at the end of the day this is a single person hobby.

Meaning no matter what you do the sweet spot is for one person.

No matter how big your room is you will likely need a small triangle on one side of that room.

That is if you want satisfying distortion free levels.

Even monsters like the JBL M2 show a hint of dynamic compression (see Erin’s dynamic compression graph) at 102dBc at 1m.

Now try to sit 4m from that. You get 93dBc. In dBa terms it’s not much and already you are losing a dB in some band.

These are monsters at that.

For entertaining or for filling a room with sound just throwing in a bunch of Sonos is probably better.

Maybe JBL SRX835. But audiophile stuff with few exceptions is for one person.

The only way 2 people are accommodated is with one chair behind the other and 2 people may get to hear the sweet spot if the paths are not obstructed.

It’s hard to drop $10k+ on this system and knowing that for throwing parties or entertaining you need another system. You just do.

The whole point of Dutch and Dutch, Genelec, studio monitors in general is to provide one person the absolute best possible sound. At the expense of the all other positions.

These shoot out 30-45* cones of sound. These are not for parties. Someone standing outside that cone hears something very different.

People come here wanting to integrate HT, party, and audio into one system. It can be done but it will suboptimal for all of the uses. Jack of all trades master or none.

 

[Marc v E]

If I had such a large space to fill with sound, I would approach it differently. I would try to hire somebody to measure the acoustic properties of my listening space, someone like a professional studio acoustician or a professional studio builder and adjust the room according to his advice.

If you can fill an amfitheatre with sound just by talking on stage that tells me this problem is probably not solved by more speaker power but rather by being smart with acoustics.

One of the options I would consider is placing moveable panels in the middle of the room when listening. I've seen those a couple of times in studios or large open work areas. Or curtains that devide the room. Anyway, just my 2 cents. An acoustician probably knows a lot more than I do and will come with solutions.

 

[RCAguy]

Bigger speakers, or add subwoofers.

Subwoofers solve several problems, both LF performance and acoustics, being able to place them to better advantage that where the mains need to be. The premium 12in MonoPrice are quite good, and lower in distortion than many others for the price. Why distortion matters is in my paper "Subwoofer Camp at www.filmaker.com