Working from the speakers backwards

[Triliza]

I'm partial to a a certain tonality, though I'd struggle to define it beyond 'warm'. I'll say this - the last time I tried putting together a stereo system by myself I went with Klipsch, entirely due to stupid reasons - marketing and the beautiful copper color of their woofers.

Well, turns out, I hate their sound. Bright, almost harsh treble - entirely the opposite of that I'm going for. I want prominent mids, silky vocals and more diffuse treble, low-hitting, powerful but not muddy bass. I don't want the whole stage to be dull or loose it's dynamic feel - viscosity like heavy cream, not honey.

I'm technically useless to describe it much beyond that, I'm afraid.
Thanks to all for their input on this - it's a joy to get more educated minds chewing on this problem with me.

Your description is way better then what I could come up with

Based on what you say and what I have read about them, I'd agree that the Revels would be your safest choice. As suggested above, you could experiment a bit with an UMIK and REW on your existing speakers, or if you are leaning more toward passive speakers, buy a MiniDSP Flex with Dirac first and see what it does to your existing speakers. If an opportunity comes arrange try to visit a shop to listen to the Revels and some active speakers if possible. By Black Friday you may have decide what you like, and a good deal may come your way to get want you want.

Whatever you decide, I'd suggest you buy something that you like from all aspects, actives may be great, but if you don't like how they look for example, better to look at something else.

 

[Waxx]

If i would start from scratch and want a clean sound i would probally also go for a more studio monitor type of speaker, and those are mostly active with build in eq. the KH420 would be on top of my list).

But then there is no budget for a dac/preamp and source anymore. But if you can safe a bit more, it's probally the best way to go. And with the KH420 you don't need subs (they go all the way down flat to 30Hz, low enough for music), just a preamp/dac device like the miniDSP Flex (with the dsp as added vallue) and a Rasberry Pi (or an other (mini-)pc) with Roon or JRiver as software as source and you're done.

review of the KH420: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/neumann-kh420-review-studio-monitor.33529/

 

[Mnyb]

Yeah the klipsch experience is kind of ruff for from neutral . I would say you have a quite normal taste in sound , It's klipsch that is the deviants here.

Beware when audition stuff in shops , bring your own tracks . So you wont fall for .

* typical audiophile tracks that always pleases.
* "show room sound" aka B&W and similar exagerated treble and and a bit of slam , very impressive and "detailed" for 5 minutes .

Yes imo "detail" is just more treble , but typical audiophiles are conditioned to thinks it's not but some other magic property , but if you measure you will simply find more treble sorry for the oversimplification it could be more "stuff" but as you discovered via Klipsch decent frequency response is the nr 1 factor

 

[Sokel]

I would let them, go and run something like the Genelec 8361, and simplify things quite a bit.

You mean Genelec 8361 plus W371 if the space is as big as we think.

 

[Sokel]

Do we want the raw simple truth?
I have a similar room in size,not so difficult thought and also measured,half treated and assisted by professionals.
Anything shorter than double 10" and 120 lit cabinets will sound missing stuff.
Is no cheap wanting to fill a room like this with good sound.
My advice?Save to go to 20-30K or go headphones.

 

[-Matt-]

We see the same recommendation coming up for Revel speakers all the time. I don't doubt that they are great, but this seems to be based on a very limited dataset. If you filter the review index to show only Tower Speakers that are recommended by Amir, you get only 6 items, and 4 of them are made by Revel.

I understand that large speakers are more difficult and expensive to transport and this explains why few of them get tested. (This also explains why the other default suggestion is for active monitors, since loads of these get tested and measure well).

If you change the search to show non-recommended Tower Speakers you get the following list...

Despite not even being mentioned on the list, and apparently not having been tested by ASR, Tower Speakers from brands such as B&W (which are far more readily available here in the U.K.) are constantly derided. Presumably on the basis of a poor review for one of their bookshelf designs on ASR, or on subjective reviews elsewhere.

For completeness, here are the Tower Speakers that get N/A for the recommended column...

These are mostly reviews posted by members which don't include the standard measurement set. (Note: The JBL HDI-3600 is tested by Amir and was partially recommended, so should really be on the first list).

I'm not sure if this is a failing of the review index (have other Tower Speakers been measured and just not been added to the list)?

Whilst the data is lacking could ASR perhaps link to any external sources of measurements in an easy to find place?

I'd love to see LOTS more measurements of Tower Speakers here. (I know someone is going to say send in yours - not so practical to ship across the Atlantic). IMHO, until we have more comparative reviews from different manufacturers the echo chamber of recommendations for Revel speakers, above all others, must be taken with a large pinch of salt.

 

[DanielT]

Do we want the raw simple truth?
I have a similar room in size,not so difficult thought and also measured,half treated and assisted by professionals.
Anything shorter than double 10" and 120 lit cabinets will sound missing stuff.
Is no cheap wanting to fill a room like this with good sound.
My advice?Save to go to 20-30K or go headphones.

Of course it can be so, BUT it depends on different factors, to name a few:
-How high a volume is involved when listening,
-SPL of the speakers
-Ability to play at a high volume without starting to sound badly distorted
-Listening distance
-Type of music (with a lot of dynamics?)
...and so on..

I read a thread DIY where it was discussed about the construction of a three-way speaker where everything from an 8 inch bass in each box to at least two pieces of 15 inch bass were presented as suggestions. Actually 8 inch bass in a three wave construction + DIY sub (of course there was discussion about how many subwoofers were suitable for that listening room) vs dual 15 inch basses in a three way construction without sub. There were more suggestions than the two solutions. You can of course build what you want as long as the wallet allows and the building skills, the equipment, the hobby time are there (plus theoretical knowledge, measuring equipment, etc... how good it will be is another matter).

What is right or wrong then? Actually nothing and everything . It depends on what kind of sound you want based on, among other things, what I mentioned above.

Edit:
Regarding the DIY thread. Double 15 inch bases, the thoughts, sketched plans, in the mentioned DIY thread reminded a lot of these:

SoundStage! Measurements - Cerwin Vega CLS-215 Loudspeakers (12/2007)

And the DIY with 8 inch bass element quite similar to these in design:

Wharfedale Linton 85th Anniversary speaker review & measurements by Erin's Audio Corner

It seems he really likes them: Parting / Random Thoughts As stated in the Foreword, this written review is purposely a cliff’s notes version. For details about the performance (objectively and subjectively) please watch the YouTube video. But a couple quick notes based on my listening and...

audiosciencereview.com

Which of these would you choose? It's a matter of taste and need. Maybe also the aesthetic, the looks.

 

[Mojo Warrior]

Drive or take Amtrak to SLC book a hotel room and listen to this line of speakers. Highly recommended and highly praised by professionals. Call ahead to set up an appointment.

Category: Full-Range Speakers

tektondesign.com

The 2 Ohm models are intriguing because many Class D amps handle low impedance well and provide more power. I purchased the Pendragons 8 years ago and have absolutely no regrets. They have many models within your budget and will fill a large room with sound.

 

[Blumlein 88]

We see the same recommendation coming up for Revel speakers all the time. I don't doubt that they are great, but this seems to be based on a very limited dataset. If you filter the review index to show only Tower Speakers that are recommended by Amir, you get only 6 items, and 4 of them are made by Revel.

View attachment 235975

I understand that large speakers are more difficult and expensive to transport and this explains why few of them get tested. (This also explains why the other default suggestion is for active monitors, since loads of these get tested and measure well).

If you change the search to show non-recommended Tower Speakers you get the following list...

View attachment 235977

Despite not even being mentioned on the list, and apparently not having been tested by ASR, Tower Speakers from brands such as B&W (which are far more readily available here in the U.K.) are constantly derided. Presumably on the basis of a poor review for one of their bookshelf designs on ASR, or on subjective reviews elsewhere.

For completeness, here are the Tower Speakers that get N/A for the recommended column...

View attachment 235976

These are mostly reviews posted by members which don't include the standard measurement set. (Note: The JBL HDI-3600 is tested by Amir and was partially recommended, so should really be on the first list).

I'm not sure if this is a failing of the review index (have other Tower Speakers been measured and just not been added to the list)?

Whilst the data is lacking could ASR perhaps link to any external sources of measurements in an easy to find place?

I'd love to see LOTS more measurements of Tower Speakers here. (I know someone is going to say send in yours - not so practical to ship across the Atlantic). IMHO, until we have more comparative reviews from different manufacturers the echo chamber of recommendations for Revel speakers, above all others, must be taken with a large pinch of salt.

I'd like more large speakers measured as well. Unless makers or owners send them to Amir not much that could be done. Plus some very large speakers wouldn't fit in place for the Klippel to measure. So other techniques are required.

Soundstage. net does anechoic measurements. They aren't equivalent to the Klippel measures, but are fairly comprehensive including off axis. Revels do exceptionally well versus other brands there as well.

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - Loudspeaker Measurements Listed

www.soundstagenetwork.com

As for B&W in particular, while I haven't heard them all, I've heard several and never heard one I thought much of in the end. They have been a darling of the press for as long as I can remember and I don't know why. I do think the Harman way of designing speakers has lots going for it. I was quite skeptical of it for a long time. One thing about them is while something else might be a little more wow in some rooms, they seem quite easy to get quite good sound quality from them wherever they are. I've heard Wilsons sound spectacularly good and problematic. Setup is quite a chore in the few models I've heard. My guess is the spinorama for them would be not all that great. I've done room correction for some speakers and it can really improve them, but it is better to start with something that needs little help.

Genelec and Neumann seem like safe choices as they also design for a Harman-like target. I'd suggest the OP get the Neumann KH420s except I'm not sure if they'd be enough in his large space. If so I think they'd be his best choice. They have some built in contouring and PEQ to adjust balance for his taste. I don't know if anyone would give him a trial period with them allowing a return with a reasonable re-stocking fee. Worth his time to travel and hear some I think.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Soundstage measures of the B&W 805 d4. Does this look like an accurate speaker? They do play loud and at very low distortion. I don't need to go listen to these.

 

[Peluvius]

Soundstage measures of the B&W 805 d4. Does this look like an accurate speaker? They do play loud and at very low distortion. I don't need to go listen to these.

When the 801 Nautilus was new I remember trying as hard as I could to like them. I just couldn't. I still don't really get why mastering studios went nuts for them but then I am not a mastering engineer....

 

[ryanosaur]

Does this look like an accurate speaker?

It looks like a garbage product they gave up trying to fix.
Of course, its way more complicated than that. What with the polite BBC inspired midrange depression, and clearly it has "detailed" highs.

When the 801 Nautilus was new I remember trying as hard as I could to like them. I just couldn't. I still don't really get why mastering studios went nuts for them but then I am not a mastering engineer....

Ultimately, I've heard people in the biz even admit that the higher end B&Ws leave them somewhat bewildered due to their performance. I get that they may sound good to some. So do Klipsch. Neither actually works (ok, they do work from the simple definition, but its more akin to one of my chefs walking by and seeing me prepping an item and he just says "that doesn't work" without further explanation). I know one guy that went from the Klipsch RP8000F to the JBL Studio 590s. He loved the Klipsch for HT, but admitted there was a huge difference in the way each Speaker performed and saw the JBLs as being much more accurate and natural sounding (especially with vocals and human speech). That Klipsch was one of their actual better efforts but still suffered around XO. *shrugs

End of the day, this is what I often refer to as the Dogma of Audiophilia. People like B&W because they are revered for some reason nobody can adequately explain. Is it expectation bias? Perhaps. I haven't heard the 800 series at all, but couldn't get behind the 600s or 700s at all, no matter how many people told me they were the best. But put the right ticket on an item and build up some brand recognition and a reputation... The rest is pretty academic at a base psychological level.

 

[Peluvius]

Ultimately, I've heard people in the biz even admit that the higher end B&Ws leave them somewhat bewildered due to their performance. I get that they may sound good to some. So do Klipsch. Neither actually works (ok, they do work from the simple definition, but its more akin to one of my chefs walking by and seeing me prepping an item and he just says "that doesn't work" without further explanation). I know one guy that went from the Klipsch RP8000F to the JBL Studio 590s. He loved the Klipsch for HT, but admitted there was a huge difference in the way each Speaker performed and saw the JBLs as being much more accurate and natural sounding (especially with vocals and human speech). That Klipsch was one of their actual better efforts but still suffered around XO. *shrugs

End of the day, this is what I often refer to as the Dogma of Audiophilia. People like B&W because they are revered for some reason nobody can adequately explain. Is it expectation bias? Perhaps. I haven't heard the 800 series at all, but couldn't get behind the 600s or 700s at all, no matter how many people told me they were the best. But put the right ticket on an item and build up some brand recognition and a reputation... The rest is pretty academic at a base psychological level.

At the time I recall hearing surprisingly deep bass, no subwoofer. Subs were less common in 2000 and from a consumer perspective, you generally expected two speakers to do the job. My theory was that room acoustics played a more significant part in appreciating them, given the room impact under 300Hz.

 

[-Matt-]

Soundstage measures of the B&W 805 d4. Does this look like an accurate speaker? They do play loud and at very low distortion. I don't need to go listen to these.

Well first off, I wouldn't count the 805 as a Tower Speaker. (This is exactly what I was talking about - people judge the entire range based on a bad bookshelf).

The point, however, is not restricted to B&W, rather; I'm pointing out that the selection of ASR measured data for Tower Speakers is quite limited.

I don't mind if certain brands measure worse, I just think we would all benefit from having the context.

You linked some data from Stereophile, so is this the recommended source for speaker measurements? Is there a searchable index? Really wish we had a wider range of measurements from all brands here on ASR.

As someone UK based, potentially interested in purchasing used speakers... If I search ebay uk for Revel Speakers I get 9 results of actual speakers; I get literally hundreds of options for B&W. Furthermore, personally it matters to me what the speakers look like (I know this is practically heresy here, but I really like real wood finish, and dislike piano polish)!

Ideally I'd like to be able to look through the review index and shortlist the best performing speakers that have an acceptable appearance and are within budget. At the moment there just aren't any options listed that would work for me.

 

[DJNX]

Four pages after and things have not progressed since. My advice to the OP is the same:

1. Just go for the Revels, they are fine speakers.
2. Use part of the budget for a measurement mic ($100 usd), measure your room and then decide whether you want to tackle that part yourself or if it's too much bother and hire a professional instead.
3. Consider two high quality subwoofers (high output). That should, in combination with your towers, help fill the room nicely.

Points 2 & 3 are your only real worries, because with hypex amplifiers, you know you'll get something powerful enough without breaking the bank. Just get points 1 & 2 done; no need to waste time on those.

 

[mcdn]

…Whilst the data is lacking could ASR perhaps link to any external sources of measurements in an easy to find place?

I'd love to see LOTS more measurements of Tower Speakers here. (I know someone is going to say send in yours - not so practical to ship across the Atlantic). IMHO, until we have more comparative reviews from different manufacturers the echo chamber of recommendations for Revel speakers, above all others, must be taken with a large pinch of salt….

You’re looking for https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/index.html

 

[tw 2022]

Don't even consider for a second spending $3850 on a pair of speakers without listening to them first. Find a dealer, drive to a dealer, or buy/borrow a pair on appro.

I'd go one farther than that.. Don't consider spending that much money on speakers without listening to speakers in the $1500 to $2500 range... There are a whole buncha good options...

 

[Blumlein 88]

Well first off, I wouldn't count the 805 as a Tower Speaker. (This is exactly what I was talking about - people judge the entire range based on a bad bookshelf).

The point, however, is not restricted to B&W, rather; I'm pointing out that the selection of ASR measured data for Tower Seakers is quite limited.

I don't mind if certain brands measure worse, I just think we would all benefit from having the context.

You linked some data from Stereophile, so is this the recommended source for speaker measurements? Is there a searchable index? Really wish we had a wider range of measurements from all brands here on ASR.

As someone UK based, potentially interested in purchasing used speakers... If I search ebay uk for Revel Speakers I get 9 results of actual speakers; I get literally hundreds of options for B&W. Furthermore, personally it matters to me what the speakers look like (I know this is practically heresy here, but I really like real wood finish, and dislike piano polish)!

Ideally I'd like to be able to look through the review index and shortlist the best performing speakers that have an acceptable appearance and are within budget. At the moment there just aren't any options listed that would work for me.

I provided a link for Soundstage.net. they have measurements for many speakers including 4 more B and W which measures worse than the one I showed.

 

[sam_adams]

The few times I've tried pumpernickel, I spat it out.

Yeah, same here. It's sour and weirdO.

Heathens!

 

[Doodski]

Heathens!

I like a fresh Canadian rye loaf. It goes so well in so many ways.