Working from the speakers backwards

[Holmz]

… Those of us who have tried to answer your question seem mostly to think that the F208s, some subs, and maybe some EQ will serve you very well.
…

The rest think that actives are a potential solution…. and a listen is worthwhile.

 

[mcdn]

The rest think that actives are a potential solution…. and a listen is worthwhile.

Only the Dynaudio 59 or Kef LS60W have been suggested that fit in the poor chap’s budget, neither leaving much over for subs.

 

[MaxBuck]

Only the Dynaudio 59 or Kef LS60W have been suggested that fit in the poor chap’s budget, neither leaving much over for subs.

I don't think subs would be needed (or perhaps even desirable) with the LS60Ws. They seem to produce pretty prodigious bass.

 

[DanielT]

Here can be a guide from Genelec (which makes excellent active loudspeakers).

Room size, listening distance and SPL are taken into account when Genelec themselves make recommendations:

Correct Monitors - Genelec.com

A monitor, by definition, observes, checks, controls, warns or keeps a continuous record of something. An audio monitor, studio monitor or monitoring speaker is more than just a good-sounding loudspeaker. It is a device used in the process of recording, mixing or broadcasting audio in any...

www.genelec.com

 

[Sokel]

Here can be a guide from Genelec (which makes excellent active loudspeakers).

Room size, listening distance and SPL are taken into account when Genelec themselves make recommendations:
View attachment 236295

Correct Monitors - Genelec.com

A monitor, by definition, observes, checks, controls, warns or keeps a continuous record of something. An audio monitor, studio monitor or monitoring speaker is more than just a good-sounding loudspeaker. It is a device used in the process of recording, mixing or broadcasting audio in any...

www.genelec.com

Hmm,the above does not coincides with Amir's findings...
If we to take it to extremes for 3m distance (which our friend stated) and we choose 8361A,Genelec states that they can go 111dbSPL peak and 102dbSPL long term.
On the other hand Amir's measurement at 106dbSPL with 1m distance is this:

A different version maybe?

 

[Sokel]

..and if our friends room volume is what we think (about 200-300 m³ or more) the suggestions are far-far beyond his budget.

 

[DanielT]

..and if our friends room volume is what we think (about 200-300 m³ or more) the suggestions are far-far beyond his budget.

Filling a really big room with sound doesn't have to be expensive, but filling a really big room with good sound, on the other hand..

That's how it is, just accept it. Or as I think you said in a previous post, buy good headphones.

 

[mcdn]

I don't think subs would be needed (or perhaps even desirable) with the LS60Ws. They seem to produce pretty prodigious bass.

It's not the SPL that's the main concern, it's the distribution of excitement of room modes below the Schroeder frequency (~200-300Hz depending on room size), where the frequency response is dominated by the room, not the speaker. In any given room, if you place a single speaker or a stereo pair in it, it really doesn't matter what the speaker's frequency response is below 200Hz, as the room response deviates by +-10dB or more.

The only way to combat this is to add more bass sources. The research suggests 4 bass sources is good, and adding more doesn't help much after that. So two floorstanders and two subs does the trick. Obviously they have to be spread out a bit and here enters a bit of artistry, as subs run with a high crossover may be too localisable to be moved to ideal spots in the room. In practice it doesn't usually matter all that much where the subs are so long as they're not right next to the main speakers.

There's a whole other midbass problem with speakers pulled out from the wall and with bass drivers high up above the floor, causing front wall and floor cancellations. The Revel floorstanders do it right by putting the bass drivers low down to the floor, and of course so do almost all subwoofers. Speakers should generally be over a meter away from the front wall or right up close to it.

 

[Tahoe]

It's not the SPL that's the main concern, it's the distribution of excitement of room modes below the Schroeder frequency (~200-300Hz depending on room size), where the frequency response is dominated by the room, not the speaker. In any given room, if you place a single speaker or a stereo pair in it, it really doesn't matter what the speaker's frequency response is below 200Hz, as the room response deviates by +-10dB or more.

The only way to combat this is to add more bass sources. The research suggests 4 bass sources is good, and adding more doesn't help much after that. So two floorstanders and two subs does the trick. Obviously they have to be spread out a bit and here enters a bit of artistry, as subs run with a high crossover may be too localisable to be moved to ideal spots in the room. In practice it doesn't usually matter all that much where the subs are so long as they're not right next to the main speakers.

There's a whole other midbass problem with speakers pulled out from the wall and with bass drivers high up above the floor, causing front wall and floor cancellations. The Revel floorstanders do it right by putting the bass drivers low down to the floor, and of course so do almost all subwoofers. Speakers should generally be over a meter away from the front wall or right up close to it.

Amazing the challenge that filling this room (around 200 cubic meters, on just the sitting side of the fireplace) presents.

I'm leaning towards the Genelecs 8361a, though I'm concerned the manufacturer's own documentation suggests I'm pushing the listening distance and room volume just past ideal ranges, and such a system will leave no room for a matching sub purchase.

The KEF LS60 is an interesting product, but I'm hesitant to try a speaker in such a small package. They claim the system is appropriate for rooms up to 200m3, but the cabinets are less than half the size of similar floor speakers, making me wary. The rest of the powered options don't seem to match my room size within my budget.

The Revels F208 look right on paper but (for whatever it's worth) I didn't love the tonality via Crutchfield's speaker compare (they only have the F206 available to sample, anyway).

I've reached out to a genelec dealer on the west coast and will see if I can demo the 8361s somehow - ultimately, I'll leave the decision to that. It'll take a special trip, but considering the cost of the system and sub limitations it seems almost mandatory. All I can hope is it'll translate well to my home after that.

 

[mcdn]

The Revels F208 look right on paper but (for whatever it's worth) I didn't love the tonality via Crutchfield's speaker compare (they only have the F206 available to sample, anyway).

Bloody hell, that’s bonkers. Amir can barely get both cups of one pair of headphones to measure the same on a dummy head. The idea that you can get any real idea of how a speaker will sound in your room using headphones on a random head is insane. I mean bless them for trying, but only broken speakers should sound appreciably different using this technique. It can’t possibly model your room’s bass modes, or the radiation pattern of the speakers in that room, or the reflections thereof.

 

[Triliza]

Amazing the challenge that filling this room (around 200 cubic meters, on just the sitting side of the fireplace) presents.

I'm leaning towards the Genelecs 8361a, though I'm concerned the manufacturer's own documentation suggests I'm pushing the listening distance and room volume just past ideal ranges, and such a system will leave no room for a matching sub purchase.

The KEF LS60 is an interesting product, but I'm hesitant to try a speaker in such a small package. They claim the system is appropriate for rooms up to 200m3, but the cabinets are less than half the size of similar floor speakers, making me wary. The rest of the powered options don't seem to match my room size within my budget.

The Revels F208 look right on paper but (for whatever it's worth) I didn't love the tonality via Crutchfield's speaker compare (they only have the F206 available to sample, anyway).

I've reached out to a genelec dealer on the west coast and will see if I can demo the 8361s somehow - ultimately, I'll leave the decision to that. It'll take a special trip, but considering the cost of the system and sub limitations it seems almost mandatory. All I can hope is it'll translate well to my home after that.

If you decide to get the Genelecs, after the bargaining is concluded, tell the dealer to throw for free the GLM set and he has a deal.

Let us know how it goes

 

[Tahoe]

Bloody hell, that’s bonkers. Amir can barely get both cups of one pair of headphones to measure the same on a dummy head. The idea that you can get any real idea of how a speaker will sound in your room using headphones on a random head is insane. I mean bless them for trying, but only broken speakers should sound appreciably different using this technique. It can’t possibly model your room’s bass modes, or the radiation pattern of the speakers in that room, or the reflections thereof.

Extremely suboptimal, I agree. But with no real opportunity to demo gear, I'm not sure what better solutions exist.

 

[Holmz]

…
The only way to combat this is to add more bass sources. The research suggests 4 bass sources is good, and adding more doesn't help much after that. So two floorstanders and two subs does the trick. Obviously they have to be spread out a bit and here enters a bit of artistry, as subs run with a high crossover may be too localisable to be moved to ideal spots in the room. In practice it doesn't usually matter all that much where the subs are so long as they're not right next to the main speakers.
…

Are bass traps still a thing?

Extremely suboptimal, I agree. But with no real opportunity to demo gear, I'm not sure what better solutions exist.

I am starting to get the picture that you cannot actually leave the house.
And you have not mention country or state to narrow down where dealers might be.

So it is looking like a paper and pencil way, to make the final choice.
I usually like listening and data… at least in theory.

 

[DanielT]

..and if our friends room volume is what we think (about 200-300 m³ or more) the suggestions are far-far beyond his budget.

In my eyes, given that size of the listening room, it smells like some type of PA solution, but of course then the problem, or the challenge, is that it should be a combination of capable SPL powerful speakers with "HiFi sound". It probably exists, but I'm not very familiar with it.

Seriously 200-300 m³ I don't know. It is an large listening room.

Don't just talk to Genelec dealers but also directly with the manufacturer. Genelec themselves say: "For more information, please contact Genelec"

What do I know. Perhaps Genelec can give tips and advice on one of their models, which is cheaper than the Genelecs 8361a which gives money over to add a number of subwoofers? Hm..OP's budget and a listening room of 200-300 m³...well I don't know.

Edit:
Maybe overkill with PA. A big listening room yes, but not arena-sized.

 

[mcdn]

Seriously 200-300 m³ I don't know. It is an unusually large listening room, extremely large.

It's really not "extremely large". My living room is 7x6x4=168m^3, and is very easily filled by a pair of LXminis and LXStudio subwoofers. Not THX reference level to be sure, but enough to make the neighbours complain and keep the kids happy in Marvel movies. Bass is what takes power, and throwing extra subwoofers into a room is pretty cheap relatively speaking.

Genelec's charts are for sustained listening at average levels over 100dB. That's bonkers loud.

 

[Sokel]

In my eyes, given that size of the listening room, it smells like some type of PA solution, but of course then the problem, or the challenge, is that it should be a combination of capable SPL powerful speakers with "HiFi sound". It probably exists, but I'm not very familiar with it.

Seriously 200-300 m³ I don't know. It is an large listening room.

Don't just talk to Genelec dealers but also directly with the manufacturer. Genelec themselves say: "For more information, please contact Genelec"

What do I know. Perhaps Genelec can give tips and advice on one of their models, which is cheaper than the Genelecs 8361a which gives money over to add a number of subwoofers? Hm..OP's budget and a listening room of 200-300 m³...well I don't know.

Don't be scared about the 200-300 m³,that's about 70 m² with a 3 meters ceiling.2-3 times an ordinary room.
Mine is a little bigger than this.There are solutions,just not out of the box.
A nice 3-way with subs near mains can do the trick if space allows it for example.

 

[mcdn]

Extremely suboptimal, I agree. But with no real opportunity to demo gear, I'm not sure what better solutions exist.

"Extremely suboptimal" isn't even the start of it. It's actively pernicious.

Anyway Crutchfield say their return shipping charge is about $75, so just order some speakers and return them if you don't like them.

 

[DanielT]

It's really not "extremely large". My living room is 7x6x4=168m^3, and is very easily filled by a pair of LXminis and LXStudio subwoofers. Not THX reference level to be sure, but enough to make the neighbours complain and keep the kids happy in Marvel movies. Bass is what takes power, and throwing extra subwoofers into a room is pretty cheap relatively speaking.

Genelec's charts are for sustained listening at average levels over 100dB. That's bonkers loud.

I noticed that and removed extreme in my post. Large listening room is probably better to say.

Also, this thing with the PA that I mentioned is not really needed. It was just a thought, which I hereby take back.

 

[mcdn]

I noticed that and removed extreme in my post. Large listening room is probably better to say.

Also, this thing with the PA that I mentioned is not really needed. It was just a thought, which I hereby take back.

What I would say about the fairly large space is that it might favour wide dispersion speakers over narrow ones if the idea is to get an even sound in many spaces. Or conversely if the listening position is fixed it would work very well with narrow dispersion speakers, as sidewall reflections would be minimal.

So, @Tahoe, consider the way you'll use the speakers when deciding which to audition in your home first

 

[DanielT]

Don't be scared about the 200-300 m³,that's about 70 m² with a 3 meters ceiling.2-3 times an ordinary room.
Mine is a little bigger than this.There are solutions,just not out of the box.
A nice 3-way with subs near mains can do the trick if space allows it for example.

Big but well it doesn't meet the challenges and PA solution that I suggested in my post #134. It was mostly a wild thought.

Add some subwoofers placed in suitable places together with some sensible speakers....? 10k ..You should come a long way with that in the form of good sound.

Room acoustics fixing (if not done) and EQ will really improve the sound.