Changes to reviews to improve credibility of this site to people who trust their ears over instrumentation measurements

[evanf]

In an anechoic chamber with normal ears, 96 db SINAD system distortion means the system is transparent when playing music with 96db peak levels. 96db is very very loud. The effective noise floor of my room and hearing combined is 7db, so 89db is the threshold for SINAD audibility. Driver distortion is -80db WITH GOLD BERYLLIUM YAMAHA DRIVERS!!!!! And every other speaker is worse, -60db is the minimus of my Yamaha NS1000M speakers in large room far away (mostly .2-.15% THD).

The phase intermodulation distortion (correctness of music harmonic arrival timing) needs to be considered to determine quality of imaging and soundstage

This site desperately needs relaxed, paper and pen noted long term listening preferably with friends helping out, prior to measurements in the reviews.

Also, there needs to be a music null tester with a level and phase matching ability, played into either a real speaker or an LCR speaker simulator. That is the only way to truly measure real music nonlinearities

94db continuous is also too much energy for speakers or headphones to be evaluated with, nevermind the insane 104db or 114db levels that Amir tests transducers at. My Yamaha NS1000M speakers cannot do 104db without serious distortion, but they are anything but sub par. This site would hate them if only looking at measurements

 

[Old_School_Brad]

I agree with your point on SINAD. A THD+N of 0.1% -equivalent to a SINAD of 60 dB -has been a long-standing standard for good reason. It's effectively transparent in nearly all real-world listening situations.

That said, in today’s measurement-obsessed landscape, any component scoring 60 dB SINAD tends to get treated like a pariah.

As for speaker distortion, I’m less convinced. Loudspeakers vary dramatically in design, materials, and intended use -not to mention how they interact with different rooms and listener preferences. It's hard to generalize.

 

[TheKoC]

This site desperately needs relaxed, paper and pen noted long term listening preferably with friends helping out, prior to measurements in the reviews.

No, this site needs no such thing. You are of course welcome to provide it yourself.

 

[DSJR]

Looking at the thread title, the ethos of this site as I understand it and the severe change in my hearing in recent years, all I can do is bang on about NOT trusting one's ears or perceptions *only* as these change from day to day and often hour to hour depending on mood at any given time.

IMD is tested here and the multi-tone test hopefully shows potential high frequency issues well. The thing is and having proved this to mysel, 99.99999% of 'subjective differences' in as near an A-B test as swapping wires around will allow, most of the perceived differences are actually level. get level the same and most of it disappears. One silly test I did preferred A over B because of this and later on after a break, I 'preferred' B over A. I gave up after that

 

[Mart68]

I lie awake at night worrying about my credibility with the 'Trust your ears' crowd.

Plenty of long term subjective listening reviews all over the internet. We were never short of them, but we were short of comprehensive measurements until this site started transmission.

Controlled listening tests for preference would be interesting but not really a practical proposition.

 

[AdrianusG]

No, this site needs no such thing. You are of course welcome to provide it yourself.

Okay, and then what?

Other people's listening experiences are just that! they mean nothing to me, i might be older or younger, so my hearing might be better or worse, but the room will be different (size ; damping materials and so on)

Sorry my reply is not for you , but for evanf of course

 

[AnalogSteph]

94db continuous is also too much energy for speakers or headphones to be evaluated with, nevermind the insane 104db or 114db levels that Amir tests transducers at.

The levels for headphones are merely that high because there would be precious little to report on otherwise in a lot of cases (you want to be testing the DUT rather than the limits of your test equipment). Besides, e.g. Sennheiser's distortion specs have been at 100 dB SPL 1 kHz absolutely forever, like at least the 1980s if not earlier.

From what I can tell, speaker testing levels of 86 and 96 dB @ 1 m are pretty standard for mid-sized speakers as well. (On the Euro side you might see as much detail as 80, 85, 90, 95 dB, but same general idea.) Complement those with 76/80 dB for smaller ones and 102 dB for ones that can take a beating if need be, and you've covered a lot of ground. I wish there was some multitone IMD or compression testing, but oh well.

 

[Audionaut]

This site desperately needs relaxed, paper and pen noted long term listening preferably with friends helping out, prior to measurements in the reviews.

That would be the triumph of subjectivism.
For my part, I am very glad that there is no such thing on this site, because the Internet and almost all audio magazines mainly offer just that - completely subjective listening impressions. ASR is finally a relaxed alternative that is mainly based on reliable and technically accurate measurements.

 

[RickS]

In an anechoic chamber with normal ears, 96 db SINAD system distortion means the system is transparent when playing music with 96db peak levels. 96db is very very loud. The effective noise floor of my room and hearing combined is 7db, so 89db is the threshold for SINAD audibility. Driver distortion is -80db WITH GOLD BERYLLIUM YAMAHA DRIVERS!!!!! And every other speaker is worse, -60db is the minimus of my Yamaha NS1000M speakers in large room far away (mostly .2-.15% THD).

The phase intermodulation distortion (correctness of music harmonic arrival timing) needs to be considered to determine quality of imaging and soundstage

This site desperately needs relaxed, paper and pen noted long term listening preferably with friends helping out, prior to measurements in the reviews.

Also, there needs to be a music null tester with a level and phase matching ability, played into either a real speaker or an LCR speaker simulator. That is the only way to truly measure real music nonlinearities

94db continuous is also too much energy for speakers or headphones to be evaluated with, nevermind the insane 104db or 114db levels that Amir tests transducers at. My Yamaha NS1000M speakers cannot do 104db without serious distortion, but they are anything but sub par. This site would hate them if only looking at measurements

Welcome to ASR!

Looks as though you are anxious to make changes here. Would help to introduce yourself and let us know what you like about ASR and why you joined.

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

My short response is the best thing this place can do is keep the distinction between "accurate" and "good in the sense that someone likes it" in mind. Many here prefer accurate, many others who do not hang out here do not prefer highly accurate. Good and bad only relate to accuracy for those who value accuracy.

That said, ASR does it's thing and I don't think changing that is a good idea. Don't dilute the brand.

Longer response?

I don't think the goal of ASR should be trying to convert people. That is the tone sometimes here, and it is very off putting when seen from other perspectives. I don't think that is the majority, but those types of comments do leap out when first reading content here.

I don't think credibility is an issue. Over time i have seen more and more qualitative reviewers use more and more references to measurements, and more respect given to ASR even when disagreeing with the approach. This place is used, and I assume a LOT.

Assuming there is a goal of making some types of audio enthusiasts more open to ASR content, I doubt measurement based reasoning is the way to go. But interpretation of measurements in terms of who might like a given bit of gear and who won't, maybe.

This speaker is flawed for those who seek a neutral presentation, with boosted bass and too much on the high end. Those who like to rock out, feel the slam of the bass, hear every part of the crash of the cymbals, this might be a good choice. But there will be issues playing above XXdb, given the cabinet resonances.

Or

This is a very neutral speaker, but given it takes well to EQ, those who prefer more base or more forward midrange will be able to make that happen and still get the quality of detail these speakers produce.

Something like that would give those who prefer non-neutral value. It might also, slowly over time, as they delve more deeply into ASR, change some minds.

As it stands, I would not say my mind was changed by ASR, rather ASR caused me to try to move towards more neutral gear and EQ, at a very low price and see if I liked more accuracy. I tested my preferences. Only after spending very little money on a couple of cheap amps and speakers did I decide that neutral was a good goal for me. At first it was "different but good". Then it became "better" to my ear. Then I went all in on gear. Which thanks to ASR, was surprisingly low in cost.

I am 100% certain the only time I have heard transparent source + neutral speakers + room control was when I made it happen in my room. I think that is true of many. ASR can come off as not only missionary, holding the ultimate truth, but also arguing people to buy into something they have not experienced. Something that many say is "sterile" or whatever. That's a hard sell. It is a much easier sell to focus on how measurements can help them get the sound THEY like with lower cost, and more reliably gear to gear and room to room.

 

[Astoneroad]

If science were left to only trust one's own eyes and ears... it would no longer be science... it would be faith. Does the OP suggest that we change the name of the forum to reflect this to Audio Faith Review? Hallelujah. (Bold for my favorite part... lol)

Now I've heard there was a secret chord
That David played, and it pleased the Lord
But you don't really care for music, do you?...

Your faith was strong but you needed proof
You saw her bathing on the roof
Her beauty and the moonlight overthrew you
She tied you to a kitchen chair
She broke your throne, and she cut your hair
And from your lips she drew the Hallelujah

 

[Old_School_Brad]

Let's be a little nicer, especially to newcomers

Hello you all. While I consider our forum to be more friendly than many, it seems that we are quite harsh on new members who post things that go against our consensus view. There is no reason to pound on people hard when they say this and that sounds good to them. Let them have some time here...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Waxx]

I think, altough ASR does a lot right, there is always room for improvement. And the thing that the OP mentions is one, be more flexible in taste and explain what you can do with a certain speaker with a certain measured spec and what not. The measurements are good, there there is (for me at least) not a single doubt about, but the explenation is often very poor and too technical for many to understand what they can do with this speaker.

So it would be good if the reviewer (in most cases Amir) more speaks about what you can do with a speaker from the point of an uneducated listener, than speaking as an engineer to engineers like he mostly does. I understand that, but many don't. It's not what and how, but how you explain what and how that is an issue here.

And the fundamentalism of some here is also a problem in many discussions. It's like you can't discuss, it's already decided by an almighty ASR comité (in their mind) how they attack diverting opinions sometimes. While a true science should always be open to (rational) critics and different opinions that may disaprove your science (again, with logica and science as base). I'm not talking about the obvious snake oil dudes that come here to cause trouble, but about many other cases where someone asks a stupid question and is immediatly slaughtered by the crowd for that...

But at the end, ASR is a great place, much better than most audio fora. The only other one i visit these days is Diyaudio.com actually... And even the annoying things I mention above are very little compared to what is going on other places...

 

[Karmacoma]

Welcome to ASR!

Looks as though you are anxious to make changes here.

You made my day lol.

 

[mhardy6647]

Accuracy and What I like are* two different things.

Potentially an interesting topic**, but historically one that devolves really quickly into irreconcilable "tribalism", at least in the quasi-anonymity of the internet.
As a "tubes 'n' horns" guy, I am kind of empathetic, but I certainly recognize the limits of my experience as a predictor for anybody else's.
_______________
* ahem. "are" is probably too strong. "Could be" is probably a fairer assessment. We're deeply in the grey now.
** e.g., issues of psychoacoutics, or nature vs. nurture -- cf. the genetics behind folks who love the taste of cilantro vs. those who find its taste akin to that of soap. I love the stuff, FWIW.

 

[Pluto]

The phase intermodulation distortion (correctness of music harmonic arrival timing) needs to be considered to determine quality of imaging and soundstage

and your evidence for the above claim can be seen where, please?

 

[Crook]

Measurements are measurements.
Personal preferences are personal preferences.
No-one else can tell me how it will sound to me.
Herein lies the issue with subjectivity.

 

[Audionaut]

So it would be good if the reviewer (in most cases Amir) more speaks about what you can do with a speaker from the point of an uneducated listener, than speaking as an engineer to engineers like he mostly does. I understand that, but many don't. It's not what and how, but how you explain what and how that is an issue here.

But that's what he does with loudspeakers.
Completely atypical for him, but he gives a completely subjective impression of his listening when it comes to headphones and loudspeakers and also writes about what he thinks loudspeakers are suitable for.

 

[Waxx]

He does do it sometimes, but way to technical for the average crowd. That is a problem with a lot of engineers, they can't explain something in simple words that every non engineer can understand. Amir should (seens his career as high level manager in tech) be able to do that, but he does not do it enough and simple enough. He does make an effort, also with his video's on how to read measurements and those are appreciated. But it can be better, especially in the subjective paragraphe of his reviews.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

The effective noise floor of my room and hearing combined is 7db, so 89db is the threshold for SINAD audibility.

Welcome to ASR!

It might be helpful to consider that SINAD is a mix of Noise and Distortion. They behave very differently, though. We are largely immune to distortion (-60 may be enough). We are more sensitive to noise. But noise is complex stuff and sometimes we can hear content below the noise floor.

Room noise is particularly interesting. Most room noise is a very deep rumble that you simply are unaware of.