Working from the speakers backwards

[sam_adams]

I like a fresh Canadian rye loaf. It goes so well in so many ways.

Rye is a good choice with any of the salted and cured meats.

 

[Doodski]

Rye is a good choice with any of the salted and cured meats.

Meat! GarwooowlZzzz. I like meat. I buy like a dozen slices of meat to nibble upon on the way home near every time I go shopping. It's a meal.

 

[-Matt-]

You’re looking for https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/index.html

Thanks for the link, that does indeed pull in data from more sources (although still quite limited for floorstanders).

If we just look at the numbers, the gulf in performance seems to be not as great as some would have you believe.

 

[mcdn]

Thanks for the link, that does indeed pull in data from more sources (although still quite limited for floorstanders).

If we just look at the numbers, the gulf in performance seems to be not as great as some would have you believe.

Well the DI for the 802N is pretty bad for the price, and it is rather bass shy (or mid forward) depending on how you draw the PIR line. The HDI3600 has a pretty wonky frequency response and some DI issues. The F226be is good on DI and FR, but a bit bass limited for the price ($7000/pair).

The F208 has the DI and PIR of the F226be, more bass than the HDI3600, and no other problems in vertical directivity, power handling or compression. It’s also less than $4000/pair. I listened to them at a local dealer last year. If I wasn’t so into weird speakers (see my sig) these are the ones I would buy.

 

[-Matt-]

I suspect that availability and cost are very different in the UK vs USA, and that this significantly changes the performance for the money equation. (Especially when looking at used speakers).

Local access to parts and service is also likely very different here.

This could be part of the explanation as to why B&W has historically been better received in the UK press (not that I trust a word that is printed in What HiFi etc now). And why we hear so often comments like 'I don't get it, these are hugely overpriced' from those based in America.


Looking at current used prices in the UK, Revel speakers are generally unobtanium! I can find a single pair of ex-display F228Be speakers for £8999.

I can only find the F208 mentioned above new, and they cost £5399 here. The F328Be cost £15995.

Looking for used B&W 802's (which, are still much rarer than lower B&W models here) there are several options for less than £6000. (I know, it isn't exactly fair to compare used and new prices, but we just don't seem to have many used Revel speakers on the market here).

(Like everything else, all of the prices seem massively inflated over the last few years).

For reference, here is a selection of new car prices!

 

[Mnyb]

Well the DI for the 802N is pretty bad for the price, and it is rather bass shy (or mid forward) depending on how you draw the PIR line. The HDI3600 has a pretty wonky frequency response and some DI issues. The F226be is good on DI and FR, but a bit bass limited for the price ($7000/pair).

The F208 has the DI and PIR of the F226be, more bass than the HDI3600, and no other problems in vertical directivity, power handling or compression. It’s also less than $4000/pair. I listened to them at a local dealer last year. If I wasn’t so into weird speakers (see my sig) these are the ones I would buy.

View attachment 236092

The non be modells seems to give much more bang for the buck ? Quite a markup for be , but custommer seems to buy them ? Pricing is quite an weird art form ?

Kef migth give you more for the money in EU countries? Bu that said in Sweden we have some revel dealers so they are expensive but not unubtainium .

 

[Sokel]

Which of these would you choose? It's a matter of taste and need. Maybe also the aesthetic, the looks.

Now that me and my room got to know each other a litlle better I would choose none of the two.
What I'm trying to say is that our friend has the opportunity to have "big sound".
What is "big sound" now...
Can't really describe it,it's about perception and it has to do with the room and the ability of the speakers to fill it properly.
Once you hear it you know it.
It doesn't come cheap though,I know so by exhausting every possible solution before turning to pros.

 

[Marc v E]

I suspect that availability and cost are very different in the UK vs USA, and that this significantly changes the performance for the money equation. (Especially when looking at used speakers).

Local access to parts and service is also likely very different here.

This could be part of the explanation as to why B&W has historically been better received in the UK press (not that I trust a word that is printed in What HiFi etc now). And why we hear so often comments like 'I don't get it, these are hugely overpriced' from those based in America.


Looking at current used prices in the UK, Revel speakers are generally unobtanium! I can find a single pair of ex-display F228Be speakers for £8999.

I can only find the F208 mentioned above new, and they cost £5399 here. The F328Be cost £15995.

Looking for used B&W 802's (which, are still much rarer than lower B&W models here) there are several options for less than £6000. (I know, it isn't exactly fair to compare used and new prices, but we just don't seem to have many used Revel speakers on the market here).

(Like everything else, all of the prices seem massively inflated over the last few years).

For reference, here is a selection of new car prices!
View attachment 236164

Agreed. It does depend on the place where you live. In Europe Genelec, Kii and other European brands are probably a better buy than in the US (where Revel is a better buy).

 

[mcdn]

I can only find the F208 mentioned above new, and they cost £5399 here. The F328Be cost £15995.

That seems about right given 20% VAT and a 1:1 pound/dollar rate

Go KEF for UK availability and quality engineering. The R11 might give the F208 a run for its money.

 

[DanielT]

Now that me and my room got to know each other a litlle better I would choose none of the two.
What I'm trying to say is that our friend has the opportunity to have "big sound".
What is "big sound" now...
Can't really describe it,it's about perception and it has to do with the room and the ability of the speakers to fill it properly.
Once you hear it you know it.
It doesn't come cheap though,I know so by exhausting every possible solution before turning to pros.

Different tastes and needs.

You have a point, if you haven't experienced something (really good), then you only compare it to the mediocre you've tried and are used to. Having said that, I don't think the speakers suggested in this thread are mediocre, on the contrary, but the principle itself. Also applies in general and not just HiFi.

An extreme, if we are talking large areas. A large indoor arena, then of course all the speakers suggested in this thread would only be a fart in the space (or rather a fart in that arena). Then a substantial BIG PA speakers/system are needed.So yes, the size of the listening room and absolute listening distance has a great importance for the choice of speakers, sound solution.

Examples of large PA speakers, PA solution:

Line array - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Costs quite a lot, of course:

GearSource

gearsource.com

BUT it can, perhaps, be a sensible solution for home HiFi as well. You will most likely then have to build them yourself as there are few line speakers for home HiFi for sale, as far as I know anyway. Advantage of line speakers reduce or eliminate floor and ceiling reflections. Reduces the need to fix the acoustics in the listening room.
Line speakers requires some EQ. You or anyone who is interested can read about that in ppataki's DIY thread:
(attached pictures are from that thread)

Murphy's Corner Line Array project

Another update: the 'sandwich' panels are done! As you can see in the below pictures, Green Glue has been applied between the panels (2x12mm birch plywood) There are some panels missing, they will be done a bit later The next phase will be to put together the back of the speaker, paint it (with...

audiosciencereview.com

What speakers do you use yourself?

 

[Holmz]

@DanielT Maybe the term, “Murphy’s law” does not translate to the old Norse and the Prose Edda?

 

[DanielT]

@DanielT Maybe the term, “Murphy’s law” does not translate to the old Norse and the Prose Edda?

He he. Probably not.

Also, I think ppataki is from Hungary or if it was Poland.

Edit:
In ppatski's profile, I missed that:
Location: Budapest

 

[Sokel]

Different tastes and needs.

You have a point, if you haven't experienced something (really good), then you only compare it to the mediocre you've tried and are used to. Having said that, I don't think the speakers suggested in this thread are mediocre, on the contrary, but the principle itself. Also applies in general and not just HiFi.

An extreme, if we are talking large areas. A large indoor arena, then of course all the speakers suggested in this thread would only be a fart in the space (or rather a fart in that arena). Then a substantial BIG PA speakers/system are needed.So yes, the size of the listening room and absolute listening distance has a great importance for the choice of speakers, sound solution.

Examples of large PA speakers, PA solution:

Line array - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Costs quite a lot, of course:
View attachment 236185

GearSource

gearsource.com

BUT it can, perhaps, be a sensible solution for home HiFi as well. You will most likely then have to build them yourself as there are few line speakers for home HiFi for sale, as far as I know anyway. Advantage of line speakers reduce or eliminate floor and ceiling reflections. Reduces the need to fix the acoustics in the listening room.
Line speakers requires some EQ. You or anyone who is interested can read about that in ppataki's DIY thread:
(attached pictures are from that thread)

Murphy's Corner Line Array project

Another update: the 'sandwich' panels are done! As you can see in the below pictures, Green Glue has been applied between the panels (2x12mm birch plywood) There are some panels missing, they will be done a bit later The next phase will be to put together the back of the speaker, paint it (with...

audiosciencereview.com

What speakers do you use yourself?

I wouldn't think of bad or good or right or wrong.
I'm sure there's a right way to approach it that most people would like.
What I do know is that even though there is a consensus in what most people like it's personal enough to dig a little more avoiding any possible bias (established ways,what you think you like,what other people think,etc).

I now own biggish 3 ways (about 160 lit),semi-actives.Better think of it as an installation really.

Edit:

That's the curve I try these days (before EQ to shave low end a little)
Seems a little bass-heavy but with the classical material I listen to sounds ok.

 

[DanielT]

I wouldn't think of bad or good or right or wrong.
I'm sure there's a right way to approach it that most people would like.
What I do know is that even though there is a consensus in what most people like it's personal enough to dig a little more avoiding any possible bias (established ways,what you think you like,what other people think,etc).

I now own biggish 3 ways (about 160 lit),semi-actives.Better think of it as an installation really.

Edit:

That's the curve I try these days (before EQ to shave low end a little)
Seems a little bass-heavy but with the classical material I listen to sounds ok.



View attachment 236204

Maybe I should elaborate. Yes most people, even those who are not interested in HiFi, would dislike speakers with very uneven FR, and or hm an old crappy car stereo where the volume is turned up really high and it starts to distort so that your ears hurt after a few seconds. There is something that most people probably consider to be bad/wrong.Okay, it was extreme, but still.

On the other hand preceive as good/right.Many(most?)people seem to like this FR:
There were not many participants in that test but it has probably been replicated, with the same results, on several occasions, right? At least I can guess that this is the case.

Edit:
I see quite a big difference between trained and untrained listeners. Interesting, it might be a topic for a new thread (but surely there is one or more threads
already here on ASR that brings it up)?

 

[Holmz]

@DanielT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy's_law

 

[DanielT]

@DanielT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murphy's_law

I knew what Murphy's law was, but I didn't know this, from that Wikipedia link. Interesting:

Academic and scientific views​

According to Richard Dawkins, so-called laws like Murphy's law and Sod's law are nonsense because they require inanimate objects to have desires of their own, or else to react according to one's own desires. Dawkins points out that a certain class of events may occur all the time, but are only noticed when they become a nuisance. He gives as an example aircraft noise interfering with filming. Aircraft are in the sky all the time, but are only taken note of when they cause a problem. This is a form of confirmation bias whereby the investigator seeks out evidence to confirm his already formed ideas, but does not look for evidence that contradicts them.[20]

Similarly, David Hand, emeritus professor of mathematics and senior research investigator at Imperial College London, points out that the law of truly large numbers should lead one to expect the kind of events predicted by Murphy's law to occur occasionally. Selection bias will ensure that those ones are remembered and the many times Murphy's law was not true are forgotten.[21]

There have been persistent references to Murphy's law associating it with the laws of thermodynamics from early on (see the quotation from Anne Roe's book above).[15] In particular, Murphy's law is often cited as a form of the second law of thermodynamics (the law of entropy) because both are predicting a tendency to a more disorganised state.[22] Atanu Chatterjee investigated this idea by formally stating Murphy's law in mathematical terms. Chatterjee found that Murphy's law so stated could be disproved using the principle of least action.[23]

 

[Balle Clorin]

Don't even consider for a second spending $3850 on a pair of speakers without listening to them first. Find a dealer, drive to a dealer, or buy/borrow a pair on appro.

I agree, I have auditioned by listening in stores and demoroom a number of “ perfect “ measuring speakers like KEF Blade 2, R11, R5, Monitor audio 500 silver g2 , and I would not buy any of them . Kind of flat and unsatisfying boring sound . And I am a guy that hate Klipsch sound, my 25 years old Audio Physic Virgo 2 also measure kind of perfect but sound much nicer to me… You have to listen.
Lately I have been liking Marten Parker series and Audio physic Cardenas at crazy price levels, I wish I knew how they measure

 

[mcdn]

@Tahoe your thread seems to have been hijacked a bit. Those of us who have tried to answer your question seem mostly to think that the F208s, some subs, and maybe some EQ will serve you very well. Those who want you to audition speakers in person seem not to have understood the extreme room dependence of bass response, and the ease with which a speaker with smooth DI can have its sound tailored to taste with EQ. Any auditioning you do will be of the room the speakers are in more than the speakers themselives.

 

[DanielT]

.. . And I am a guy that hate Klipsch sound, my 25 years old Audio Physic Virgo 2 also measure kind of perfect but sound much nicer to me… You have to listen.

If you don't like the boost in the treble that the Klipsch can have, plus if you you like the boost, that extra umph in the bass, I understand if you like them.

"The response of the midrange unit and tweeter, shown to the right of fig.2, is astonishingly flat, with just a very slight rising trend noticeable. The sharp suckout just below 30kHz is an interference phenomenon due to the tweeter's "phase plate."

Averaged across a 30-degree horizontal window at the same distance, 50", on the tweeter axis, the speaker's response (fig.3) has a slight lack of energy in the upper midrange but again is very smooth and flat. There seems to be a broad hump in the lower midrange and upper bass in this curve, which was calculated by taking the complex sum—magnitude modified by phase—of the midrange unit, woofers, and port. While this correlates with MF finding the speaker to have a little extra midbass warmth—"maybe just too much of a good thing," he said—it does result in the Virgo having impressive low-frequency extension: this curve is down 6dB from the 1kHz reference level at 23Hz, despite the speaker fundamentally having an overdamped character."

Audio Physic Virgo loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 4: Measurements The Audio Physic Virgo is a reasonably hard load for an amplifier to drive, as shown by its plots of impedance magnitude and phase against frequency (fig.1). Not only does the impedance drop below 4 ohms for pretty much the entire midrange, but the phase angle is also...

www.stereophile.com

 

[Blumlein 88]

I've heard good KEF speakers. B and W never heard good ones at any price. It's not a value issue.