Topping LA90 Review (Integrated Amplifier)

[Laserjock]

There is no issue with low impedance speakers. I just post measurements down to 2 ohm. Don't know why this rumor got created. Hardly any amplifier is rated below 4 ohm officially. But many work when used with music.

Maybe those concerned could actively cool them somehow.
Lots of easy options

Edit: Removed name

 

[Hifihedgehog]

I am out in the middle of the boonies with~1 Mbps, <1 bar LTE. and I miss this delightful news. AudioScienceReview publishes a historic review of the world's best speaker amplifier that runs for a mere $800. Naturally, its thread is exploding with pages of replies, never mind that readers' heads are exploding on every page of those replies. Is there a level 5 poll option for a panther with an exploding head because I think it is quite appropriate?

 

[MerlinGS]

in a blind preference test between a well calibrated NAD T758 or MartinLogan Forte (which is a Paradigm PW-AMP with better streaming support) and a “purist” magic SINAD signal chain with this amp, one should expect to lose money betting against the SINAD-fail AVR with Dirac Live or budget baby integrated with the latest Anthem Room Correction... however one ranks a super quiet low power low distortion power amp, as an integrated amp one can’t sensibly consider this one better than headless failure

[emphasis mine]

I generally enjoy your posts and your youtube speaker reviews, but the bolded statement is lazy and uninsightful.

Whether you (we) like it or not, it goes without question that most stereos (and I mean in excess of 95%) in use today do not use any form of DSP/RC, so for most users, your assessment is of little value (if not meaningless). Moreover, the vast majority of integrated amps do not include DSP (in fact, other than the 2 you mentioned, you could probably name the rest without much difficulty), so in the context of the marketplace, not having DSP cannot be used as a metric for grading an amp as a "headless failure."

The aforementioned statement notwithstanding, let's now consider the argument embedded in your statement. This amp is a failure because it does not allow for room correction. Again, lazy thinking. There are many ways in which a user can address RC while also using this amp:

1. Use a PC as a source (one can even use Dirac in this context)
2. Use a source that provides DSP
3. Pass the source through electronics that provide DSP prior to reaching the amp (I have a MiniDSP that provides Dirac for any HDMI source, this can easily be converted to analog and fed to the amp)
3. Use speakers that have integrated DSP for the bass
4. Alternatively, and for many users this is a preference, take steps to correct room issues instead of using DSP.

So, if the concern is the need for room correction, then there are numerous ways of addressing this.

So, is the LA90 a laudable design? Its performance metrics outside of power output clearly place it amongst the best there is. However, should the amp not be described as borderline useless because of its power output? Let's consider the many ways in which this amp has sufficient power:

1. As a desktop amp
2. Powering speakers with efficiency above 93db
3. Used in rooms sizes commonly found in houses in Europe, Japan, and many condos in expensive cities in NA
4. Most bedrooms
5. Etc.

Yes, the amp's power output does not reach the needs of many users in this forum (I doubt it even meets my office needs) and elsewhere, but that is not the measure of the amp's utility. As noted above, there are many contexts under which LA90 provides sufficient power, the fact that it does not meet a particular group of consumers' needs should not be construed as an indictment of the design or the amp (it was never meant for such users), it merely means those consumers needs are better addressed by other designs/amps.

 

[BoredErica]

@boXem | audio ?

Maybe those concerned could actively cool them somehow.
Lots of easy options

Imo, I don't want fans if possible due to noise and dust. I'm looking at passive power supply for my computer of all things.

As for power brick comments by others, I'm going to go against the grain here. I don't mind external power supply. And if it means I get 3db higher sinad or something, hell, I'll just hide the power brick like how I hide the amp in the first place. Paying large amounts of extra money for sinad I might not hear? Maybe not. But just having an external power brick for sinad I might not hear? Honestly, I'm okay with that.

 

[pma]

There is no issue with low impedance speakers. I just post measurements down to 2 ohm. Don't know why this rumor got created. Hardly any amplifier is rated below 4 ohm officially. But many work when used with music.

Good to see measurements into 2 ohm. Thank you.

BTW some amplifiers are rated officially into 2 ohm, like Accuphase e.g. They often double power into half load impedance. It is all about output stage design and SOA. Number of output transistor pairs.

 

[pma]

It is highly probable that LA90 uses regulated power supply with limited output current.

 

[voodooless]

BTW some amplifiers are rated officially into 2 ohm, like Accuphase e.g. They often double power into half load impedance.

They also “double down” when it comes to distortion, or rather “cube down”.. or worse. For instance this Krell Solo 575:

Or, while we’re at it, Accuphase M-2000:

Or this more recent $50k monster (Accustic Arts AMP V) that could not complete the 2 Ohm test while speced for 2 Ohm:

 

[pma]

They also “double down” when it comes to distortion, or rather “cube down”.. or worse. For instance this Krell Solo 575:

…. and they have 10 - 20 x higher output power than this little thing. Impossible to compare. Such distortions are inaudible, however clipping is instantly audible.

 

[Tks]

Have a look on audiophonics... They have a couple of images of the heat sinks and chadsis

Can you give me a link, I can't find it.

Higher gain should not give you more power, it just allow for lower amplitude sources to reach full power.

What would be a low amplitude source these days? Oh and what would be the benefit of high gain if my source isn't low amplitude? I'm simply used to seeing higher gain provide also higher output, so not seeing it leaves me wondering what's the point? And how would a source reach "full power", a source spits out whatever it can, why would an amp make it "reach full power". I'm a bit ignorant on this.

 

[solderdude]

Thanks for sharing!

Isn't this a bit of an odd result? Wouldn't you expect 2 ohm x 2 and 4 ohm x 1 power output to be roughly the same like we see when comparing 4 ohm x 2 to 8 ohm x 1? Any theory why instead we are seeing double the power when bridged in to 4 ohms?

Michael

Not really it shows the current limiter kicks in at 5A. (1 channel driven, 2 ohm)
At 20.5V max. output voltage one can calculate the amp is designed for 4 ohm (thus 8 ohm bridged)
It just doesn't go up in smoke when 2 ohm is applied.

As speakers are never 2 ohm over the entire audible range and music has a wide range of frequencies that may all exist at the same time it is not a big problem if the impedance dips at certain frequencies as the voltage level for those frequencies will never reach 20V only the combined voltage will do so. As not all frequencies will be in 2 ohm the output current limit even in 2 ohm will not be reached (using music).
Only on a measurement bench it will.

I would not recommend to use this amp in bridged mode with 4 ohm speakers though even though it does not blow up it is designed to be used with 8 ohm nominal (meaning higher and lower impedance dips/peaks are allowed).

The power supply can deliver 256W (continuous) and with about 75% efficiency for class A-B = 190W total available.
So 95W per channel (continuous) so power supply is the limiter it seems.

 

[jhaider]

[emphasis mine]

I generally enjoy your posts and your youtube speaker reviews, but the bolded statement is lazy and uninsightful.

You want lazy and uninsightful? Try praising YouTube videos that have never existed, and then conflating bass management (what I stated is a necessary condition for an integrated amp to be worth the name in the sentence you truncated then emphasized) and room correction.

As for the mere existence of other crap integrateds, sure I agree there are more of those than useful ones. So what? We should be pressing manufacturers to make better stuff. The Buchardt integrated is a great example. The first drafts were terrible, but they took criticism seriously and in the spirit of good faith from which it came. They ended up releasing an integrated with a fantastic feature set.

 

[voodooless]

…. and they have 10 - 20 x higher output power than this little thing.

They also cost me 20 - 50x as much… so there is that.

The 200w@4R in mono mode should be enough for most of people.

 

[Talisman]

I really don't get the point, this site is about measuring and testing new and used equipment. Also recommendations are given. But everybody has a different budget and different preferences.

I have fully explained my point of view with long and articulate answers, I will not repeat myself because I would go out of thread and it would lead nowhere.
I have expressed my concerns, for the rest I congratulate with topping for the engineering result but this particular product will not make me open my wallet, everyone will choose their priorities with their own money and the market will tell the truth in the end.

 

[mk1nd]

Wattage Worshippers Worldwide,

a rather knowledgeable person in this video basically needs to shout "How much power do you need?!" at the 04:12 mark while listening to 87dB provided by one watt ...

This is no.doubt yet another Top(ping)-notch product

 

[bahamot]

@WolfX-700 tested 4ohm bridged mode:

 

[PeteL]

What would be a low amplitude source these days? Oh and what would be the benefit of high gain if my source isn't low amplitude? I'm simply used to seeing higher gain provide also higher output, so not seeing it leaves me wondering what's the point? And how would a source reach "full power", a source spits out whatever it can, why would an amp make it "reach full power". I'm a bit ignorant on this.

Hi Amplitude equal High voltage. I am a bit lazy to do the exact calculation right now but Basically, ball Park, this amp can get to clipping a 4V source at near 0 DBFS (Balanced DAC) on Low Gain and will be able to get to clipping a 2V (Unbalanced modern DAC) To clipping on hi gain setting. Pretty much everything else, the output of your TV, of your phone, of a radio tuner, most BT receivers, The jack on your laptop, etc.that has low output, you'll have Watts that you won't be able to use on either gain setting, meaning if you turn the volume wheel all the way up, your input signal do not reach clipping point. The formula for this would be: Input voltage to get to clipping=(SQRT (Max Power X Load Impedance))/(Gain converted in Ratio).

Most Amps have more like 29 dB of Gain, so higher than these two value. That means that you would have to turn down the volume a bit, at full amplitude, the amp would be clipped, but thats better than wasting Watts, or at least more "universal" It just mean you have to turn down the volume a bit because the last section of the Potentiometer course your signal is clipped.

edit: for a bit more rigour, I calculated on low gain. It can get to clipping 1.5V source into 4 ohms, so a less than the 2V I stated in my mental quick calculation. But still the general statement is right, many pieces of equipment wont give you that.

 

[notabenem]

...
60 W is plenty with eff speakers at a nice listening level ~75 dBAx
..

Why would I buy an amp with specs for 120dB SINAD and listen it at 75dbAx (avg... with peaks up to 95-100)? I would not be able to enjoy all that dynamic range and pureness, even though I have paid for it, now would I?

So let's assume for a second that I buy this amp with the intent of enjoying >115dB of clean sound. The sheer fact that LA90 can deliver that is amazing and it's a no contest with the rest. But I still need to hear it. So I need either a set of:
1. speakers with ~100dB or better to be used with this amp in unbridged mode (power range of 3-24W based on the charts)
2. speakers with ~95dB or better sensitivity to be used with this amp in bridged mode (power range up to 95W based on the charts)

Both speakers should be able to deliver extremely low distortion at 115dB, which I doubt, if there are any? Are they? Because if not, I can go with much cheaper amps. Or can I?

 

[Dave Tremblay]

But you must count for some roomgain and that fact that you also always use two loudspeakers , thats +10 dB or more in bass frequencies.

I believe those assumptions were already in the calculator I was quoting. Regardless, the point I was trying to make is that we need to talk more about headroom for dynamic content, not just average SPL levels. Depending on the music you listen to, that can be anywhere from 6dB to 20dB for mastered content.

 

[Nzama]

Can you give me a link, I can't find it.



What would be a low amplitude source these days? Oh and what would be the benefit of high gain if my source isn't low amplitude? I'm simply used to seeing higher gain provide also higher output, so not seeing it leaves me wondering what's the point? And how would a source reach "full power", a source spits out whatever it can, why would an amp make it "reach full power". I'm a bit ignorant on this.

 

[Peternz]

So what do you think about this 2 x 25 Watt at 8 Ohm $7.600 Pass Labs Class A amp then (https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/..._A_Integrated_Amplifier-Integrated_Amplifiers) ?

I think you would have to be insane to buy that. Pass Labs is audio jewelry and you are paying for a myth and a legend rather than the sound quality.