Speaker Upgrades - GR Research

[CDMC]

I am quite aware that biases and preconceived notions go both ways. I am also quite aware that Danny spews a lot of BS. His belief is that what he is hearing from "upgrading" (modifying) loudspeakers isn't a change in FR but from the materials used in the capacitors ("air" -- "soundstage" -- etc.). In order for really expensive capacitors to actually sound different, they'd have to add so much to the stray circuit elements that they would have to be a radical deviation from the ideal component. A "high end" capacitor is just like a "high end" cable. Do you want to talk values? Danny doesn't even believe in double blind listening tests... Personally, I cannot take him seriously. Just because he makes well designed loudspeakers that sound great does not mean that he cannot believe in pseudoscience. He does. As mentioned above, if screenshots are necessary, I will post them. In the meantime, I'd suggest you rewatch all of the videos he's featured in on New Record Day and actually listen to what he's saying.

I am not claiming that he doesn't believe in psuedoscience. What I am pointing out is that your statement that "He is 2hrs from me and I’ll actually be visiting so he can give me the run around... " strongly indicates that you have preconceived bias that brings into question the validity of any observations you may have. You have already decided that there will be no differences and will therefore likely hear none. This is no different than someone who goes with the expectation it will make a difference and hears one.

There is also the additional factor (at least in the case of the Klipsch mods) that he has changed the speaker's frequency response and phasing, both of which should be observable. Outside of blindly listening to two speakers with the same crossover values and only the type of components changed, it is impossible to know if the changes in the sound are from frequency response and phase changes or the component changes.

Given the foregoing, my question is: What do you expect to get from visiting Danny? Given your views, his views, and the inability to conduct any type of blind listening, the outcome is pretty certain: Both of you will spend time to reach the same conclusion you each already have, but with higher blood pressure and having lost a day of your life. For the subjectivists listeners, they will conclude what they already have: you are deaf (I am not saying that, just reciting what their argument will be) and Danny is doing great work. For the objectivists they will conclude that no conclusion can be made because of the preconceived biases and sighted tests. There is of course the possibility that you will hear a difference, but I think that is highly unlikely.

 

[Putter]

I am not claiming that he doesn't believe in psuedoscience. What I am pointing out is that your statement that "He is 2hrs from me and I’ll actually be visiting so he can give me the run around... " strongly indicates that you have preconceived bias that brings into question the validity of any observations you may have. You have already decided that there will be no differences and will therefore likely hear none. This is no different than someone who goes with the expectation it will make a difference and hears one.

There is also the additional factor (at least in the case of the Klipsch mods) that he has changed the speaker's frequency response and phasing, both of which should be observable. Outside of blindly listening to two speakers with the same crossover values and only the type of components changed, it is impossible to know if the changes in the sound are from frequency response and phase changes or the component changes.

Given the foregoing, my question is: What do you expect to get from visiting Danny? Given your views, his views, and the inability to conduct any type of blind listening, the outcome is pretty certain: Both of you will spend time to reach the same conclusion you each already have, but with higher blood pressure and having lost a day of your life.

While I don't doubt that your conclusion is correct (and the most probable outcome), it's not unreasonable to have a preconceived notion of what will be the result of a given test/experiment. That would be the hypothesis. What is important is the ability when the test gives a different result to be able to 'turn on a dime' and toss aside the preconception and look for a new hypothesis and find supporting data.

Or to quote Isaac Asimov The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I've found it!), but 'That's funny...'

 

[CDMC]

While I don't doubt that your conclusion is correct (and the most probable outcome), it's not unreasonable to have a preconceived notion of what will be the result of a given test/experiment. That would be the hypothesis. What is important is the ability when the test gives a different result to be able to 'turn on a dime' and toss aside the preconception and look for a new hypothesis and find supporting data.

Or to quote Isaac Asimov The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I've found it!), but 'That's funny...'

Absolutely. Good science requires keeping an open mind to to all possibilities and applying methodology that allows reputability and minimizes the effects of biases to affect the data. As most are aware, some of our greatest scientific advancements have come about when looking for one thing and observing or accidentally stumbling onto another (x-rays, microwave, vulcanized rubber, insulin).

 

[LDKTA]

I am not claiming that he doesn't believe in psuedoscience. What I am pointing out is that your statement that "He is 2hrs from me and I’ll actually be visiting so he can give me the run around... " strongly indicates that you have preconceived bias that brings into question the validity of any observations you may have. You have already decided that there will be no differences and will therefore likely hear none. This is no different than someone who goes with the expectation it will make a difference and hears one.

There is also the additional factor (at least in the case of the Klipsch mods) that he has changed the speaker's frequency response and phasing, both of which should be observable. Outside of blindly listening to two speakers with the same crossover values and only the type of components changed, it is impossible to know if the changes in the sound are from frequency response and phase changes or the component changes.

Given the foregoing, my question is: What do you expect to get from visiting Danny? Given your views, his views, and the inability to conduct any type of blind listening, the outcome is pretty certain: Both of you will spend time to reach the same conclusion you each already have, but with higher blood pressure and having lost a day of your life. For the subjectivists listeners, they will conclude what they already have: you are deaf (I am not saying that, just reciting what their argument will be) and Danny is doing great work. For the objectivists they will conclude that no conclusion can be made because of the preconceived biases and sighted tests. There is of course the possibility that you will hear a difference, but I think that is highly unlikely.

You aren’t wrong and while I may have a preconceived notion, being the open minded person that I am, I’m totally willing to accept the fact that he may be right. I did ask to conduct measurements with him before and after as well. I am honestly only going to listen to more of his loudspeakers... but getting him to agree to a controlled and unsighted listening test (for the both of us) would be great as well.

 

[CDMC]

You aren’t wrong and while I may have a preconceived notion, being the open minded person that I am, I’m totally willing to accept the fact that he may be right. I did ask to conduct measurements with him before and after as well. I am honestly only going to listen to more of his loudspeakers... but getting him to agree to a controlled and unsighted listening test (for the both of us) would be great as well.

That would be great if there was a way to do some unsighted. Hopefully both of you gain some insight out of it.

Just my own limited (and flawed) observations about quality resistors. My Magnepans use changeable resisters to pad down the high frequencies. I first tried the cheap 50 cent wirewound resistors and found them to just suck the life out of the top end. I ended up trying some Mills resistors (they are about $4-5 a piece) and for the same values found that they sounded more open. Obviously, there are a plethora of reasons this could occur, among which are 1) inaccuracies in the stated values, 2) my belief they are better, or 3) actual improvements in the sound. I lack the ability to do any blind testing on it, so I am sticking with #3 and calling my $10 spent a good upgrade.

 

[HammerSandwich]

Most likely explanation: your wirewound resistors had enough inductance to create an audible low-pass filter.

 

[CDMC]

Most likely explanation: your wirewound resistors had enough inductance to create an audible low-pass filter.

I like that explanation, logical and reasonable.

 

[Deleted member 2944]

The square, wirewound resistors that ship with Magnepans have inductance values of only about 1uH. So, with 4 ohm load, a cutoff frequency well up into the hundreds of kilohertz.
I can certainly believe you noticed an audible difference, but it wasn't because of inductance creating a significant low-pass filter.

Dave.

 

[beagleman]

I do not like that his "Upgrade" kits cost a lot, and tend to only use high priced crossover components, that he will not supply a schematic for.

I think he worries, most would take the schematic, buy the same exact or lower cost equal value crossover parts, and save Danny's Mark up on commonly available parts.

 

[escott82]

I like that he shows the crossover improvements with measurements. But I guess we'll have to take his word on it that the tube connectors are an improvement.

Do you think having magnetic parts in the signal path is good? Most binding posts I’ve tested have magnetic washers and nuts holding the posts inside. Clearing that up and basically having a passthrough design should improve quality of signal.

 

[trl]

To me at least, this is far from a snake oil salesman. He is selling a upgrade that makes a measurable and perceivable difference at a reasonable cost (you can cost the parts for yourself if you want to go round them up and buy them directly), he isn't claiming anything magical, and he is allowing people and opportunity to dabble in DIY. I think it is a great thing.

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=166535.0

Looks like @maty has a dedicated thread about this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...easurements-by-danny-richie.8840/#post-274765.

 

[amirm]

Do you think having magnetic parts in the signal path is good? Most binding posts I’ve tested have magnetic washers and nuts holding the posts inside. Clearing that up and basically having a passthrough design should improve quality of signal.

If the signal is improved, it should show up in a measurement. Is there such?

 

[escott82]

If the signal is improved, it should show up in a measurement. Is there such?

Not too sure. You’d have to buy both and test them. I’m sure your understanding of signal path is probably greater than mine. I can’t imagine passing the same signal through so many parts that don’t work well with audio would be great though. Just logically I can see how having a straight through connection would be much better than passing it through a thick bolt plus push on connectors and magnetic nuts and clips. I’d prefer to have passthrough all copper than mixing different materials together and trying to get highest quality out of that.
There’s probably other ways of doing it too they have quick disconnects that could be used to make similar kinds but never found all copper quick connects and I’ve been looking.

 

[beagleman]

Not too sure. You’d have to buy both and test them. I’m sure your understanding of signal path is probably greater than mine. I can’t imagine passing the same signal through so many parts that don’t work well with audio would be great though. Just logically I can see how having a straight through connection would be much better than passing it through a thick bolt plus push on connectors and magnetic nuts and clips. I’d prefer to have passthrough all copper than mixing different materials together and trying to get highest quality out of that.
There’s probably other ways of doing it too they have quick disconnects that could be used to make similar kinds but never found all copper quick connects and I’ve been looking.

Maybe that is his goal?
Some will simply buy them on "faith" or on his "name" and assume they are doing better, but have nothing concrete to back it up.
Even if they were not sure it made any difference, many people are unwilling to return things, just on principle, let alone those too embarrassed or simply not wanting to take the time and effort...?

 

[MrPeabody]

Do you think having magnetic parts in the signal path is good? Most binding posts I’ve tested have magnetic washers and nuts holding the posts inside. Clearing that up and basically having a passthrough design should improve quality of signal.

The question you asked someone isn't really a meaningful question. There are all manner of things that have the potential to negatively impact sound, if you look hard enough to find a reason why they might. The meaningful question is whether those magnet washers and nuts actually have an audible effect. It is wrong thinking to simply assume, on the grounds that it is plausible, that they do. You would need to have a good reason to think that they have an audible effect, before it would make sense to conclude that by removing them, the sound will improve.

 

[MrPeabody]

... Just logically I can see how having a straight through connection would be much better than passing it through a thick bolt plus push on connectors and magnetic nuts and clips. ....

"much better" in what specific sense? In order for it to have an audible on the sound, it needs to have an audible effect on the sound, and I don't think you've said anything to the effect that these things that you dislike have an audible effect on the sound. This is the fundamental question, that you are conveniently skipping over as though you believe that whenever it is plausible that something would have an audible effect on the sound, that that thing, whatever it is, will in fact have an audible effect on the sound. Lots of audiophiles think like this, and this is the reason why there is so much snake oil in audio. You are implicitly asserting that these things, the ferrous things, actually do affect the sound, but you have not shared with us the reason why you think this.

 

[escott82]

Maybe that is his goal?
Some will simply buy them on "faith" or on his "name" and assume they are doing better, but have nothing concrete to back it up.
Even if they were not sure it made any difference, many people are unwilling to return things, just on principle, let alone those too embarrassed or simply not wanting to take the time and effort...?

"much better" in what specific sense? In order for it to have an audible on the sound, it needs to have an audible effect on the sound, and I don't think you've said anything to the effect that these things that you dislike have an audible effect on the sound. This is the fundamental question, that you are conveniently skipping over as though you believe that whenever it is plausible that something would have an audible effect on the sound, that that thing, whatever it is, will in fact have an audible effect on the sound. Lots of audiophiles think like this, and this is the reason why there is so much snake oil in audio. You are implicitly asserting that these things, the ferrous things, actually do affect the sound, but you have not shared with us the reason why you think this.

All I’m saying is going from a speaker cable that’s 14 gauge into a big bolt back into a speaker cable doesn’t sound optimal to me. Changing size and material sounds good to you? It just seems like common sense to me to not change size of signal for anything really. I’d prefer to keep everything the same size, same material if I had the choice. It’s ok if you think that running a speaker wire through a 4 gauge threaded bolt and nut and then back into a 14 gauge speaker wire with all different materials won’t change sound but to me it sounds odd why someone would choose that way besides convenience of parts.
I don’t have testing equipment. Not trying to get into a pissing match just trying to think logically about what’s really happening at the binding posts.

 

[beagleman]

All I’m saying is going from a speaker cable that’s 14 gauge into a big bolt back into a speaker cable doesn’t sound optimal to me. Changing size and material sounds good to you? It just seems like common sense to me to not change size of signal for anything really. I’d prefer to keep everything the same size, same material if I had the choice. It’s ok if you think that running a speaker wire through a 4 gauge threaded bolt and nut and then back into a 14 gauge speaker wire with all different materials won’t change sound but to me it sounds odd why someone would choose that way besides convenience of parts.
I don’t have testing equipment. Not trying to get into a pissing match just trying to think logically about what’s really happening at the binding posts.

But you are forgetting the crossover components, caps, resistors and coils, let alone the voice coils in the drivers.

All those things are drastically different sized than that 14 gauge speaker cable.

I do not think his tweaks "hurt" anything for sure, but just feel there is no real gain either.

 

[MrPeabody]

All I’m saying is going from a speaker cable that’s 14 gauge into a big bolt back into a speaker cable doesn’t sound optimal to me. Changing size and material sounds good to you? It just seems like common sense to me to not change size of signal for anything really. I’d prefer to keep everything the same size, same material if I had the choice. It’s ok if you think that running a speaker wire through a 4 gauge threaded bolt and nut and then back into a 14 gauge speaker wire with all different materials won’t change sound but to me it sounds odd why someone would choose that way besides convenience of parts.
I don’t have testing equipment. Not trying to get into a pissing match just trying to think logically about what’s really happening at the binding posts.

I really don't follow your reasoning at all. Doing things for the sake of convenience is a perfectly good reason, and there isn't any reason to do otherwise except for when there is a reason to do otherwise. Is there a reason to do otherwise here? If there is, you haven't identified. All you've is said that you think that something bad is likely to happen when the signal transmission path has different kinds of materials, copper and iron. But you haven't anything substantive about why you think this is harmful to the signal. This is the crux of the matter. Since early today, or perhaps earlier, you've been saying in essence that you think the ferrous bits are harmful, but thus far you have not given any explanation for why you think this. This explanation should have been in the first post where you brought up the question. Whenever that post was, whatever the post # was, you should have explained, in that very post, your reasons for believing that the signal is harmed by those little ferrous pieces.

 

[77SunsetStrip]

Has anyone ever heard Danny Ritchie mention there is a fee associated with him evaluating a speaker sent to him? I have yet to hear of an evaluation fee. A speaker is measured and upgrade kit developed. From there it appears totally up to the speaker owner to buy the upgrade or not. Danny is likely not working for free, amortizing his evaluation time across X number of upgrade kits sold. Completely legit business model.

The before and after measurements are certainly in line with achieving as flat as possible FR with good horizontal and vertical FR. The after version would certainly fall in line with what Amir considers good measurements. Dennis Murphy has done the same thing, developing and selling upgrade kits for popular low priced speakers.

Seems like this whole discussion can be boiled down to Chevy vs Ford personal preference. Some prefer a Chevy and would never own a Ford, and vice versa. If you don't like products offered in the free marketplace, develop and sell your own better product.