• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously. We now measure and review equipment for free! Click here for details.

Speaker Upgrades - GR Research

TimW

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Aug 15, 2018
Messages
619
Likes
787
Location
Martha Lake, WA
#23
In other words he used first order electrical slopes and added a notch filter. This makes me wonder if undue stress is placed on either driver causing excess distortion. When I asked Dan he just said you can't measure distortion outside of an anechoic chamber and that distortion is just a marketing term anyway. The FR of the modified version definitely looks better and sounds more neutral in the demo though.
 

gene_stl

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 14, 2019
Messages
519
Likes
638
Location
St.Louis , Missouri , U.S.A.
#24
I hadn't noticed you could speed up you tooob. Thank you for the tip.

At the risk of starting a controversy, I have noticed certain analogies between speaker beliefs and amplifier and DAC beliefs.
For example although Olsen postulated and drew speaker box shapes in the 1930s I don't believe any of that edge diffraction effect is really audible.
If you make your cabinet reasonably well I don't believe you need Constrained Layer Damping though none of these things sound like bad ideas.
I think many of these things are measurable but probably not very audible especially considering masking and accommodation.
I am willing to be educated.

There is another guy in Denmark who sell over priced crossover improvement kits. I recently picked up a set of Yamaha NS1000 and found Troels Gravesen's crossover upgrade kits. From $421 Euro to 699 Euro not including schipping and VAT. It might cost slightly more than his low price kit
but it would be worth it to triamp them rather than horsing around with crossover upgrades.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm

He has lots of DIY speaker projects. I am greatly in favor of those who can manage them since the retail price of things today have lost all connection with reality and reason. (imho)
 

tomtoo

Major Contributor
Joined
Nov 20, 2019
Messages
1,178
Likes
1,127
Location
Germany
#25
In other words he used first order electrical slopes and added a notch filter. This makes me wonder if undue stress is placed on either driver causing excess distortion. When I asked Dan he just said you can't measure distortion outside of an anechoic chamber and that distortion is just a marketing term anyway. The FR of the modified version definitely looks better and sounds more neutral in the demo though.
Thats why i'am interested what the Audiophiliak say's now? It was his budget speaker and this was a heavy intervention. Thats realy intersting.
 

Johnb

Active Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2018
Messages
137
Likes
120
Location
San Francisco, CA
#26
I watched all of them but set speed to 1.5X in youtube. :) I had not heard of him before and enjoyed watching his videos. He is straightforward in his approach. Sad that he put his videos in New Record Day channel that is full of voodoo.
I used to follow the Madisound speaker designer's forum. GR Research had a very nice reputation as providing good value. Many of the amateur designers on that forum at some point turn it into a small home-based businesses - really labors of love and catering to the community, and sold for a minimal markup on parts. Of course, all this magic capacitor / inductor nonsense exists on the forum - not as marketing hype but people's belief, reinforced by gurus they look up to. Dennis Murphy was one of the standouts on the forum, and did his best to dispel the tweaked parts culture. He at the time donated all of his designs to the community. I think Dennis had a design with one of GR's woofers.
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
33,059
Likes
112,067
Location
Seattle Area
#27
Many of the amateur designers on that forum at some point turn it into a small home-based businesses - really labors of love and catering to the community, and sold for a minimal markup on parts. Of course, all this magic capacitor / inductor nonsense exists on the forum - not as marketing hype but people's belief, reinforced by gurus they look up to.
You remind me that I do want to test his hypothesis about better resistors and caps. I can easily measure their effects. Anyone want to suggest how we go about doing so? I suppose I could build two crossovers with bad and good parts and see what the difference is.
 

jtwrace

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
May 31, 2017
Messages
852
Likes
769
Location
Orlando, FL
#28
You remind me that I do want to test his hypothesis about better resistors and caps. I can easily measure their effects. Anyone want to suggest how we go about doing so? I suppose I could build two crossovers with bad and good parts and see what the difference is.
Just get Danny from GR to send you a speaker that has both which he has done many times
 

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
33,059
Likes
112,067
Location
Seattle Area
#29
Just get Danny from GR to send you a speaker that has both which he has done many times
Oh he has? If so, that is easy. I will pursue that when I get a chance to breathe.... :)
 

jtwrace

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
May 31, 2017
Messages
852
Likes
769
Location
Orlando, FL
#30

JohnBooty

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 24, 2018
Messages
490
Likes
1,041
Location
Philadelphia area
#31
The question becomes at what point, price or otherwise, are we assured that what we are getting is a quality built product. I fully agree that Dan is somewhat jumping on the chain of acclaim that Klipsch is enjoying with that model at the moment. Most of this has come from the usual mob of on line reviewers.
The speaker in its stock form is a quality product. :) That's why people like it. (Haven't heard it myself)

Klipsch has made compromises, of course, similar to any commercial speaker in this price range. Much in the way that something like a $30,000 car is chock full of compromises compared to a $90K car. But the $30K car but has no major compromises and is generally a pretty nice ride. (Bump that dollar figure up if we're talking SUVs, of course)

Klipsch and other commercial speaker vendors are pretty smart. They have a certain amount of money they can spend on parts and assembly for each unit and they are pretty good about spending it in the ways that reap the biggest benefits.

Of course, what you're really asking is how much it costs for a speaker like this Klipsch that comes with all of the upgrades that Danny offers. No major compromises in the crossover, cabinet, etc.

Generally it seems to me that "no major compromises" 2-way bookshelf speakers tend to start at around $1,500. KEF LS50, Buchardt S400, etc. Maybe more like $750-1,000 if you're going with internet-direct sellers like Hsu, Ascend, etc.

If you're willing to dip into DIY kits, you can have a pair of bookshelf speakers with no major compromises for a few hundred bucks.
 
Last edited:

dreite

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Aug 10, 2018
Messages
676
Likes
832
Location
Bremerton, WA
#32
In other words he used first order electrical slopes and added a notch filter. This makes me wonder if undue stress is placed on either driver causing excess distortion. When I asked Dan he just said you can't measure distortion outside of an anechoic chamber and that distortion is just a marketing term anyway.
Yet another data point to add to my collection that tells me Danny Richie doesn't have a clue what he's talking about regards speaker system design.

Dave.
 

LDKTA

Active Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2019
Messages
173
Likes
204
#33
Danny Richie certainly believes in quite a bit of snake oil. From certain types of binding posts, “high-end” capacitors, “high-end” USB and speaker cables and so on. He is 2hrs from me and I’ll actually be visiting so he can give me the run around... Richie claims that if I do not hear differences between the same loudspeaker (that also measures exactly the same) using different grades of capacitors then I’d be deaf.

He has been banned from a major DIY group on Facebook for spreading falsehoods as well... We recently spoke about him modifying (not necessarily upgrading) loudspeakers and he couldn’t even acknowledge that all he does is essentially “revoice” the loudspeaker. He uses measurements to push a lot of the myths he believes in as well. He may know how to design a great sounding loudspeaker, (I’ve heard a pair at LSAF 2019 and they did indeed sound great but no better than a lot of what I’ve heard) but at the end of the day he’s a salesman (that tends to push pseudoscience).
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 31, 2019
Messages
12
Likes
10
#34
Danny Richie certainly believes in quite a bit of snake oil....He uses measurements to push a lot of the myths he believes in as well. He may know how to design a great sounding loudspeaker...but at the end of the day he’s a salesman (that tends to push pseudoscience).
You sound conflicted here. I hear “he uses measurements” and “he may know how to design a great sounding loudspeaker” so both positive statements, particularly because he’s using measurements which he supposedly uses to design great loudspeakers.

However you then claim he pushes myths and paeudoscience.

im having trouble reconciling measurement backed great sounding loudspeakers with myths and pseudoscience partly evidenced by the same measurements.

Can you please elaborate by citing a link between measurement and claimed “myth” (and why the claim ends up being myth, contrary to the backing of said measurements”?

I’m serious tho what you said makes not a lot of sense. But I would like to understand your position and evidence of why you feel that way.
 

CDMC

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2019
Messages
1,028
Likes
1,923
#35
Danny Richie certainly believes in quite a bit of snake oil. From certain types of binding posts, “high-end” capacitors, “high-end” USB and speaker cables and so on. He is 2hrs from me and I’ll actually be visiting so he can give me the run around... Richie claims that if I do not hear differences between the same loudspeaker (that also measures exactly the same) using different grades of capacitors then I’d be deaf.
How will your listening and not hearing a difference be any different than someone who believes cable risers make a difference hearing a change? Biases and preconceived notions run both ways.
 
Joined
Aug 31, 2019
Messages
12
Likes
10
#36
Oh he has? If so, that is easy. I will pursue that when I get a chance to breathe.... :)
Given the range of cost of items like inductors and capacitors, from what I’ve seen the big three Danny pushes (large gauge air core inductors vs “spaghetti “ iron core inductors, sonicap I and II caps and mills resistors vs super cheap stock stuff in most sub 10k speakers, makes sense to me. Slightly more dollars for a supposedly vastly improved component. I’ve seen what sonicap platinums and Mundorf silver oil caps cost....multiples of what sonicap I and II cost.

Secondly he is huge on point to point wiring vs going through a PCB. The idea being the fewer connections, materials, etc in the signal path the better. And that reasoning to me makes sense. For every relay, solder point, differing material, exposed pathway, there’s a chance for interference and noise.

Now as we’ve discussed....can differing “quality” components measure electrically different? Not sure. Does wiring point to point vs via a pcb measure differently either electrically or sonically?? Dunno.

Definitely room for some analysis!
 

DDF

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Dec 31, 2018
Messages
565
Likes
1,045
#37
You remind me that I do want to test his hypothesis about better resistors and caps. I can easily measure their effects. Anyone want to suggest how we go about doing so? I suppose I could build two crossovers with bad and good parts and see what the difference is.
I measure caps using mlssa which can model cap or inductor complex impedance vs frequency against a pure reactive component and express the outcome using a correlation function. Threw more than a couple caps away that were visually perfect but somehow damaged in a way you'd never see on a cap bridge and only started showing meaningful error above a few kHz. Keep an eye on higher frequency variances. Inductors (air core) always seem to be perfect even with sloppy homebrew windings.

My suggestion: make an xover where transfer function has high sensitivity to parameter variation (high order and underdamped), then measure its linearity and distortion vs frequency and level. Don't load it with drivers for linearity testing as you'd be measuring xfer function changes due to driver impedance changes with level, much more than any change of xover part value. Distortion can be measured into drivers but would risk smoking tweeters so again probably better to stick to synthetic driver loads made with components.

Probably not worth measuring iron core inductor distortion, quite a bit of public domain info is already available and it would mask any possible errors (if they exist) from high quality parts.
 

LDKTA

Active Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2019
Messages
173
Likes
204
#38
You sound conflicted here. I hear “he uses measurements” and “he may know how to design a great sounding loudspeaker” so both positive statements, particularly because he’s using measurements which he supposedly uses to design great loudspeakers.

However you then claim he pushes myths and paeudoscience.

im having trouble reconciling measurement backed great sounding loudspeakers with myths and pseudoscience partly evidenced by the same measurements.

Can you please elaborate by citing a link between measurement and claimed “myth” (and why the claim ends up being myth, contrary to the backing of said measurements”?

I’m serious tho what you said makes not a lot of sense. But I would like to understand your position and evidence of why you feel that way.
All you have to do is watch all of his videos and actually listen to him. However, if absolutely necessary, I will post screenshots.
 

LDKTA

Active Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2019
Messages
173
Likes
204
#39
How will your listening and not hearing a difference be any different than someone who believes cable risers make a difference hearing a change? Biases and preconceived notions run both ways.
I am quite aware that biases and preconceived notions go both ways. I am also quite aware that Danny spews a lot of BS. His belief is that what he is hearing from "upgrading" (modifying) loudspeakers isn't a change in FR but from the materials used in the capacitors ("air" -- "soundstage" -- etc.). In order for really expensive capacitors to actually sound different, they'd have to add so much to the stray circuit elements that they would have to be a radical deviation from the ideal component. A "high end" capacitor is just like a "high end" cable. Do you want to talk values? Danny doesn't even believe in double blind listening tests... Personally, I cannot take him seriously. Just because he makes well designed loudspeakers that sound great does not mean that he cannot believe in pseudoscience. He does. As mentioned above, if screenshots are necessary, I will post them. In the meantime, I'd suggest you rewatch all of the videos he's featured in on New Record Day and actually listen to what he's saying.
 

LDKTA

Active Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2019
Messages
173
Likes
204
#40
Given the range of cost of items like inductors and capacitors, from what I’ve seen the big three Danny pushes (large gauge air core inductors vs “spaghetti “ iron core inductors, sonicap I and II caps and mills resistors vs super cheap stock stuff in most sub 10k speakers, makes sense to me. Slightly more dollars for a supposedly vastly improved component. I’ve seen what sonicap platinums and Mundorf silver oil caps cost....multiples of what sonicap I and II cost.

Secondly he is huge on point to point wiring vs going through a PCB. The idea being the fewer connections, materials, etc in the signal path the better. And that reasoning to me makes sense. For every relay, solder point, differing material, exposed pathway, there’s a chance for interference and noise.

Now as we’ve discussed....can differing “quality” components measure electrically different? Not sure. Does wiring point to point vs via a pcb measure differently either electrically or sonically?? Dunno.

Definitely room for some analysis!
"Slightly more dollars for a supposedly vastly improved component."

I can understand the benefits of point to point wiring... does that make it a better option than a properly designed PCB?

Why couldn't differing quality components measure differently? This isn't always a good thing either... Your last question is rather vague.
 

Similar threads

Top Bottom