Speaker Upgrades - GR Research

[Chrispy]

I'm sure Danny believes in his own shite.

 

[BN1]

I had not looked at this thread for two months but it came up again today with a new post, which was when I saw this ridiculous post. It is perfectly ridiculous. Fraud is committed whenever a false representation is made when selling a product. A false representation is made with power cords whenever the seller claims or even insinuates that the aftermarket power cord will improve sound quality. It is a false claim, therefore it is fraud. To look at it any other way is to pretend that it is more complex than it truly is. And as for fiction, my 1000% number is quite obviously a guesstimate, but even though it is only a guesstimate, it is in all likelihood a pretty good guesstimate because it is difficult to fathom how a damned power cord could cost more than about $30 to manufacture, and $300 is greater than $30 by 1000%. In fact, the manufacturing cost for a power made in certain Asian countries is probably not more than $10. So it isn't fiction, and you have no reason at all to call it fiction unless you have reliable data on the manufacturing cost of a power cable made in the places where such things are usually made. The whole power cord business is a RACKET, plain and simple, and everyone on the planet who isn't an idiot knows perfectly well that it is.

Fraud in the audio business ?!!! Hard to tell when someone declares that they hear something different than yourself. Of course there is blatant fraud in the marketing of many manufacturers, for example one leading speaker brand routinely overstates the sensitivity of their speakers when no objective 3rd party can reproduce the specs. Others claim impedance "nominals" when objective measurements say otherwise. More difficult to claim actual fraud when hearing varies so widely. Me ? I can't the difference between amps, speakers, room corrections, eq, etc, etc so I'm not in a position to judge about wires, connectors, & components so, fortunately, for me, it's just a hobby and I can choose where I spend my $$.

 

[beagleman]

Fraud in the audio business ?!!! Hard to tell when someone declares that they hear something different than yourself. Of course there is blatant fraud in the marketing of many manufacturers, for example one leading speaker brand routinely overstates the sensitivity of their speakers when no objective 3rd party can reproduce the specs. Others claim impedance "nominals" when objective measurements say otherwise. More difficult to claim actual fraud when hearing varies so widely. Me ? I can't the difference between amps, speakers, room corrections, eq, etc, etc so I'm not in a position to judge about wires, connectors, & components so, fortunately, for me, it's just a hobby and I can choose where I spend my $$.

Making big claims is the easy part.

In fact..MOST audio forums are full of blowhards that make all types of odd, silly and unsubstantiated claims, quite routinely.

They are the guys, that have zero to back up what they say, can not ever submit to blind testing, and always get angry and argue about how great thier hearing is, while never demonstrating anything, other than the ability to brag about big claims.

 

[77SunsetStrip]

I had not looked at this thread for two months but it came up again today with a new post, which was when I saw this ridiculous post. It is perfectly ridiculous. Fraud is committed whenever a false representation is made when selling a product. A false representation is made with power cords whenever the seller claims or even insinuates that the aftermarket power cord will improve sound quality. It is a false claim, therefore it is fraud. To look at it any other way is to pretend that it is more complex than it truly is. And as for fiction, my 1000% number is quite obviously a guesstimate, but even though it is only a guesstimate, it is in all likelihood a pretty good guesstimate because it is difficult to fathom how a damned power cord could cost more than about $30 to manufacture, and $300 is greater than $30 by 1000%. In fact, the manufacturing cost for a power made in certain Asian countries is probably not more than $10. So it isn't fiction, and you have no reason at all to call it fiction unless you have reliable data on the manufacturing cost of a power cable made in the places where such things are usually made. The whole power cord business is a RACKET, plain and simple, and everyone on the planet who isn't an idiot knows perfectly well that it is.

By Mr. Peabody's standards every marketing department for products from toothpaste to autos commit fraud on a daily basis. Spending on a HOBBY is up to the individual - period. Just like spending choices for anything else. There are thousands of products made in "certain Asian countries" with large markups much more important to daily life than power cables. Marketing hype and markup is a fact of life in every business. Charging what the market will bear is another business fact. The marketplace will ultimately decide who remains standing.

Managed a wiring harness and cable manufacturing facility for 20 years so know very well the realities of that market. Wild guesstimates by Mr. Peabody have no basis in fact and prove nothing related to fraud. Selective indignation fueled by Internet bravado related to cables or anything else in the audio HOBBY is ridiculous. You want to tilt and windmills, crusade for something that actually makes life better.

 

[Plcamp]

I have recently joined a few Facebook groups wherein yet another new cable company pops up with nice pictures.
So I responded each time (twice so far) with a question…

“Are you making any claim that your cable makes an audible difference when compared to a conventional cable of same length and gauge?”

To the credit of the one that responded so far, they replied with a message that their cables are as good as any and went no further.

 

[MrPeabody]

By Mr. Peabody's standards every marketing department for products from toothpaste to autos commit fraud on a daily basis. Spending on a HOBBY is up to the individual - period. Just like spending choices for anything else. There are thousands of products made in "certain Asian countries" with large markups much more important to daily life than power cables. Marketing hype and markup is a fact of life in every business. Charging what the market will bear is another business fact. The marketplace will ultimately decide who remains standing.

Managed a wiring harness and cable manufacturing facility for 20 years so know very well the realities of that market. Wild guesstimates by Mr. Peabody have no basis in fact and prove nothing related to fraud. Selective indignation fueled by Internet bravado related to cables or anything else in the audio HOBBY is ridiculous. You want to tilt and windmills, crusade for something that actually makes life better.

Dude, you are the one who obviously wants to do the Don Quixote thing. Let us be perfectly honest and clear about this. Amir posted a video where he simply explained that the notion, of RF noise picked up in speaker cables, is a patently false notion expounded by Danny Richie for personal monetary gain. You were bothered by Amir's having done something so blatantly moral as this, so you donned your Quixote costume and you came swinging your allegorical sword at Amir. What Amir did with the video was in no way peculiar, and needs no explanation. What you did, though, was very peculiar, and does warrant an explanation. The explanation that is apparent is that you believe that someone who promotes bogus claims for personal gain commits no moral wrong whereas someone who perceives a moral wrong in this sort of thing and exposes the fraud is committing a moral wrong. In what you have now written here, you have made it even more apparent that this is how you look at things.

Your first statement in your post here, "By Mr. Peabody's standards every marketing department for products from toothpaste to autos commit fraud on a daily basis" is a false and ridiculous thing for you to have written. You have plainly revealed the inability to distinguish between advertising that isn't patently fraudulent and advertising that is patently fraudulent. You said in essence that the claim that speaker cables are affected by RF interference is not fundamentally different from the kinds of claims made routinely by toothpaste manufacturers and car manufacturers. It is not realistic or honest for you to assert that there is no fundamental difference between the ridiculous claim about speaker cables being affected by RF interference and the kinds of claims that toothpaste and car manufacturers make routinely. I'm old enough to remember watching the Kennedy-Nixon debate on television, and in all these many years, I have never once observed any advertisement from a car company or a toothpaste manufacturer that was even remotely like the claim that speaker cables are affected by RF interference, or the claim that power cables influence sound quality. Toothpaste does much what the manufacturers say that it does, and automobiles do much what the manufacturers say that they do. Claims routinely made by manufacturers of various kinds of cables, especially power cords of the type that Danny Richie sells at fantastic markup, are patently false. If you are not able to understand this and appreciate the fundamental difference, there probably isn't any way that I or anyone else could make you see it.

The statements that I had made, that you did not like, were fully consistent with truth and reality. You criticized those statements in a manner that was not honest. I have already explained that my 1000% markup statement is a crude guesstimate that is fully consistent with reality notwithstanding your baseless insistence that it isn't. And as for the correct use of the word "fraud", it is obvious that you do not understand what this word means. When people who sell power cords claim that they will improve sound quality, this is fraud. If you think you know of an argument to the contrary, I encourage you to keep it to yourself, because whatever that argument might be, it will amount to some silly contrivance and I will not have any difficulty in showing that it is a silly contrivance. If this bogus claim is made for power cords that sell for only a few tens of dollars, it is easy to look the other way, but it is fraud nonetheless. When this claim is made for power cords that sell for several hundreds of dollars, or more, then it is not easy to pretend not to notice the blatant commission of fraud.

 

[77SunsetStrip]

Mr. Peabody, thanks for replying just as I expected. Long rambling reply filled with un-related tangents and distortions. You are the one with no clue about proof of fraud, claiming your personal opinion to be a fact. Danny R sells at a fantastic markup? What nonsensical hyperbole. If you are this worked up by Danny R, can't imagine your level of rage about guys that sell $10K cables. Please, don't have a stroke over a HOBBY.

 

[valerianf]

Going back to the main thread (speaker upgrade) I discover that what Danny is doing is very close to my view of a speaker upgrade.

Since decades I am buying not too expensive speakers.
I listen to them as they are and after a few years (past the warranty), I open them and start to investigate the mods that I can do as an upgrade.
First level is re-reinforcement of the cabinet, better inside damping.
If needed I am changing some drivers.
Then I calculate and design a new crossover.
This process is time consuming but it is once during the life time of the speaker.
Nowadays using a computer shorter the crossover development time.

After this process I am enjoying a very unique speaker that is exactly performing as I want to.
Danny is providing a shorter path to a similar upgrade.
Remember, we are talking about a hobby.

 

[MrPeabody]

Mr. Peabody, thanks for replying just as I expected. Long rambling reply filled with un-related tangents and distortions. You are the one with no clue about proof of fraud, claiming your personal opinion to be a fact. Danny R sells at a fantastic markup? What nonsensical hyperbole. If you are this worked up by Danny R, can't imagine your level of rage about guys that sell $10K cables. Please, don't have a stroke over a HOBBY.

I am not so much worked up by Danny Richie as I am worked up by you coming here and attacking me, Amir and others for doing nothing more than pointing out a simple truth: that when Richie claims that power cords influence sound quality and that speaker cables are subject to RF interference, he is lying.

 

[Standing in the rain]

How do you know it a upgrade ?

 

[77SunsetStrip]

I am not so much worked up by Danny Richie as I am worked up by you coming here and attacking me, Amir and others for doing nothing more than pointing out a simple truth: that when Richie claims that power cords influence sound quality and that speaker cables are subject to RF interference, he is lying.

Problem is, Mr. Peabody, your idea of simple truth is neither simple or the truth. Any unshielded wire is an antenna. That is an engineering fact known longer than you have been alive. Pause, breathe and absorb that truth.

Is RF going to be heard coming out of your speakers? NO.

Can RF infiltrate your electronics via a power cord or speaker wire? YES. RF has a nasty habit of finding a path. Another well know engineering truth.

Do well designed electronics provide RF suppression? YES, at least SHOULD.

Is RF suppression 100% effective in all audio electronics? NO, but in most home audio situations not a problem.

Should John Q. Public have the option to assume RF is not an issue? YES

Should John Q. Public have the option to NOT ass-u-me and purchase a product from ANY source that will reduce conducted RF/EMI/RFI to virtually zero? YES

 

[Plcamp]

Any unshielded wire is an antenna. That is an engineering fact known longer than you have been alive.

One problem with that statement is that the adjective “unshielded” can be removed, and the statement is still true. So it doesn’t actually say anything.

 

[beagleman]

I am not so much worked up by Danny Richie as I am worked up by you coming here and attacking me, Amir and others for doing nothing more than pointing out a simple truth: that when Richie claims that power cords influence sound quality and that speaker cables are subject to RF interference, he is lying.

I agree, but perhaps what he (richie) is doing is taking one truth and applying to a situation where it does not matter.

it is EXTREMELY easy to tell if a cable or conductor will degrade the sound. I mean he glosses over that and hints about things that do not directly impact the sound at all, but acts as if he believes they will.

 

[MrPeabody]

Problem is, Mr. Peabody, your idea of simple truth is neither simple or the truth. Any unshielded wire is an antenna. That is an engineering fact known longer than you have been alive. Pause, breathe and absorb that truth.

Is RF going to be heard coming out of your speakers? NO.

Can RF infiltrate your electronics via a power cord or speaker wire? YES. RF has a nasty habit of finding a path. Another well know engineering truth.

Do well designed electronics provide RF suppression? YES, at least SHOULD.

Is RF suppression 100% effective in all audio electronics? NO, but in most home audio situations not a problem.

Should John Q. Public have the option to assume RF is not an issue? YES

Should John Q. Public have the option to NOT ass-u-me and purchase a product from ANY source that will reduce conducted RF/EMI/RFI to virtually zero? YES

No, dude, the only real problem here is that you can't stand for other people to state simple, obvious truths in a perfectly matter-of-fact way. You have made this perfectly apparent.

Of your own free will you decided to make yourself the chief apologist for Danny Richie, someone who is strongly disliked by many people who participate here. People who dislike him do so for perfectly good reasons that are perfectly obvious. For just one of numerous reasons, he made a video where he endeavored to convince people who trust him that speaker cables are susceptible to RF interference and that this affects the sound you hear from your speakers. He would not have made this video if he did not think that many people would believe him and that this would stimulate them to buy speaker cables from him.

You have surely noticed by now that a major theme of this site is debunking audio myths and exposing audio fraud. This is manifestly a large part of what ASR is about, and given that you are obviously, strongly averse to this kind of activity, a question that begs asking is why you choose to do what you are doing. It seems very peculiar to me.

I find it annoying whenever someone who endeavors to make some claim is not willing to state the claim in a plain, straightforward manner. You are obviously trying to say, now, that power cords are susceptible to RF interference and that sound quality of an amplifier is affected by this phenomenon. (I'm focusing specifically on power cords because you said that RF interference isn't heard through a speaker.) Okay, so why don't you just say, in a plain and direct way, that power cords are susceptible to picking up RF interference and that when this happens the sound quality of the amplifier will be affected? What is the reason that you said this in the particular and very peculiar way in which you said it, instead of saying it in a plain, direct way?

I took a minute or two to search for audio power cables on AliBaba. I'm providing a link to the results that were returned. There are ten pages of results, and it looks like they are all for just one seller. The full listing for power cords is no doubt far greater than this. Of course the prices cover a good range, but the pertinent observation is that there are a very great many that cost (retail) less than 1/10 what Richie charges for his power cords. I have no doubt that you will now assert that these power cords are of lesser quality vs. the power cords that Richie sells, and that you will do this thing absent any genuine reason to think that it is true.

https://viborgaudio.aliexpress.com/store/group/HiFI-Power-cables/405877_210931458.html#!

 

[77SunsetStrip]

Wow,

No, dude, the only real problem here is that you can't stand for other people to state simple, obvious truths in a perfectly matter-of-fact way. You have made this perfectly apparent.

Of your own free will you decided to make yourself the chief apologist for Danny Richie, someone who is strongly disliked by many people who participate here. People who dislike him do so for perfectly good reasons that are perfectly obvious. For just one of numerous reasons, he made a video where he endeavored to convince people who trust him that speaker cables are susceptible to RF interference and that this affects the sound you hear from your speakers. He would not have made this video if he did not think that many people would believe him and that this would stimulate them to buy speaker cables from him.

You have surely noticed by now that a major theme of this site is debunking audio myths and exposing audio fraud. This is manifestly a large part of what ASR is about, and given that you are obviously, strongly averse to this kind of activity, a question that begs asking is why you choose to do what you are doing. It seems very peculiar to me.

I find it annoying whenever someone who endeavors to make some claim is not willing to state the claim in a plain, straightforward manner. You are obviously trying to say, now, that power cords are susceptible to RF interference and that sound quality of an amplifier is affected by this phenomenon. (I'm focusing specifically on power cords because you said that RF interference isn't heard through a speaker.) Okay, so why don't you just say, in a plain and direct way, that power cords are susceptible to picking up RF interference and that when this happens the sound quality of the amplifier will be affected? What is the reason that you said this in the particular and very peculiar way in which you said it, instead of saying it in a plain, direct way?

I took a minute or two to search for audio power cables on AliBaba. I'm providing a link to the results that were returned. There are ten pages of results, and it looks like they are all for just one seller. The full listing for power cords is no doubt far greater than this. Of course the prices cover a good range, but the pertinent observation is that there are a very great many that cost (retail) less than 1/10 what Richie charges for his power cords. I have no doubt that you will now assert that these power cords are of lesser quality vs. the power cords that Richie sells, and that you will do this thing absent any genuine reason to think that it is true.

https://viborgaudio.aliexpress.com/store/group/HiFI-Power-cables/405877_210931458.html#!

Not an apologist for anyone, only interested in facts.

Again, you avoid simple facts, jump to incorrect assumptions along with mind reading ability. Don't know how much simpler and direct to make things for you. One more time.

All cables/wire can pick up EMI/RFI(RF). Suppression exists in well designed electronics for a reason. Designers understand EMI/RFI(RF) can cause problems, ergo a bad thing to be avoided. Our environments are full of EMI/RFI(RF) noise pollution.

Pay attention, said this before. Additional noise pollution suppression measures do not have to be expensive. Here is additional clarification - Shielding, drain wire, twisted wire, and braided wire are proven to provide a higher level of noise rejection.

Repeating again. Most audio hobbyists will experience no issues. Others may want to go beyond the minimum. Their choice to select a proven noise rejection technique spending to their comfort level.

Wow, using AliBaba as an information source regarding quality and price is a total joke. My list of facts regarding RF have nothing to do with Danny R. or any other cable manufacturer. Conclusions you reach are a perfect example of your imagination or residence in an alternate reality.

Just an FYI. I have measured and eliminated RF and other noise pollution in electronics, including audio, that should not have been present. Direct experience with RF finding a path.

Once again, most audio equipment will not experience an issue. The actual Myth is that noise pollution will NEVER cause a problem and can be ignored.

 

[beagleman]

Me thinks the RF issue is a bit of a "red herring"

It is similar to saying a cable sounds better by being waterproof, so if they are installed underwater or if there is a flood, they will still work.

But it ignores the basic premise, that almost any cheap cable can pass the signal, and inserts some odd thing, that really does not matter and acts as if that thing is very important, AND somehow creates better sound, unrelated to the claim of the RF.

Confusing.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Wait, you mean I shouldn't have my speaker wire sitting in puddled water? Well, that sure changes things........

 

[PresbyByrd]

Wait, you mean I shouldn't have my speaker wire sitting in puddled water? Well, that sure changes things........

Yea, it enables that “liquid” sound…

 

[Peluvius]

Some of what DR puts out is worthwhile. I like the DIY approach which is quite sensible and practical in a lot of cases. If only he put some data and science behind his other propositions (ie. special cables) everyone would be happy. Offering a 30 day return is a pretty good middle ground though. Caveat Emptor?