Speaker Upgrades - GR Research

[MrPeabody]

Has anyone ever heard Danny Ritchie mention there is a fee associated with him evaluating a speaker sent to him? I have yet to hear of an evaluation fee. A speaker is measured and upgrade kit developed. From there it appears totally up to the speaker owner to buy the upgrade or not. Danny is likely not working for free, amortizing his evaluation time across X number of upgrade kits sold. Completely legit business model.

The before and after measurements are certainly in line with achieving as flat as possible FR with good horizontal and vertical FR. The after version would certainly fall in line with what Amir considers good measurements. Dennis Murphy has done the same thing, developing and selling upgrade kits for popular low priced speakers.

Seems like this whole discussion can be boiled down to Chevy vs Ford personal preference. Some prefer a Chevy and would never own a Ford, and vice versa. If you don't like products offered in the free marketplace, develop and sell your own better product.

I don't know what point you're making, or how it relates to previous comments in this thread.

Some of the things that people point out, that bother some people, is that most of the crossover "upgrades" to more expensive component parts, like upgrading the cheap resistors to more costly resistors, is a waste of money that people spend because Ritchie has them convinced that it will improve the sound quality of their speakers. Some of the component upgrades may actually be helpful, and wholesale replacement or true modifications to the crossover may be helpful in some cases, but on the whole, too much of it is just hooey. He also takes people's money in exchange for hyped power cables that don't actually do a single damned thing, and this also bothers some people. Defend him if you wish, but it is difficult to trust someone who does these things.

 

[amirm]

Has anyone ever heard Danny Ritchie mention there is a fee associated with him evaluating a speaker sent to him?

He seems to do the evaluation for free so that he can then sell the parts for the crossover. Seems like a crazy business model to me. It is time consuming to open, analyze and design a new crossover just to make parts margin. To the extend he can sell a lot of them I guess it works out for him but it is not a business model I would have thought of creating unless it was just a hobby.

 

[Deleted member 2944]

All I’m saying is going from a speaker cable that’s 14 gauge into a big bolt back into a speaker cable doesn’t sound optimal to me. Changing size and material sounds good to you? It just seems like common sense to me to not change size of signal for anything really. I’d prefer to keep everything the same size, same material if I had the choice. It’s ok if you think that running a speaker wire through a 4 gauge threaded bolt and nut and then back into a 14 gauge speaker wire with all different materials won’t change sound but to me it sounds odd why someone would choose that way besides convenience of parts.
I don’t have testing equipment. Not trying to get into a pissing match just trying to think logically about what’s really happening at the binding posts.

If you're thinking logically, then his expensive tube connector "solution" should be dismissed as well. (That's an electrical transition that needn't be there.)
The best way would be to have no panel connectors (at all) and continue your speaker wire straight into the cabinet for a direct connection to the crossover/speaker components.

Dave.

 

[77SunsetStrip]

This is the Speaker Upgrade - GR Research thread, is it not? How do cables relate to this thread? What is the point of being bothered by a legitimate business? Are you bothered by the marketing "hooey" employed by many speaker manufacturers? I hope you realize there are science based methods of manipulation refined over decades ingrained in the marketing profession.

Trying to establish simple accurate information about GR Research speaker upgrades is not a defense. Danny Ritchie believes in a certain level of quality, certainly not the most expensive. Quality is more costly. Is a $25,000 pair of speakers snake oil if they measure very similar to a $5,000 pair? Dollars to donuts the guy that spent $25,000 will tell you they sound spectacular. If you are happy with lower quality, less costly - go for it.

 

[Deleted member 2944]

He seems to do the evaluation for free so that he can then sell the parts for the crossover. Seems like a crazy business model to me. It is time consuming to open, analyze and design a new crossover just to make parts margin. To the extend he can sell a lot of them I guess it works out for him but it is not a business model I would have thought of creating unless it was just a hobby.

I see Danny's business model as (essentially) selling a belief system. That is not unusual in the audio(phile) industry. Many folks do it.
In some ways, your business model here at ASR has a similar premise.

Danny is an interesting character. I find myself irritated with him often, but I always pinch myself and remember there's numerous other folks in this crazy audio business selling products with far less value.

You have to keep perspective at all times........and the BS filter active at all times as well.

Dave.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Has anyone ever heard Danny Ritchie mention there is a fee associated with him evaluating a speaker sent to him? I have yet to hear of an evaluation fee. A speaker is measured and upgrade kit developed. From there it appears totally up to the speaker owner to buy the upgrade or not. Danny is likely not working for free, amortizing his evaluation time across X number of upgrade kits sold. Completely legit business model.

The before and after measurements are certainly in line with achieving as flat as possible FR with good horizontal and vertical FR. The after version would certainly fall in line with what Amir considers good measurements. Dennis Murphy has done the same thing, developing and selling upgrade kits for popular low priced speakers.

Seems like this whole discussion can be boiled down to Chevy vs Ford personal preference. Some prefer a Chevy and would never own a Ford, and vice versa. If you don't like products offered in the free marketplace, develop and sell your own better product.

I've certainly participated in the upgrade biz. But I have never tried to upsell people on terminals or crossover components. My "upgrades" are confined to better tweeters and revised crossover circuitry, all of which can be measured, and have been measured by Amir and others. You like sand cast resistors? OK with me. You want to use standard binding posts? Sounds good. 16 AWG zip cord inside? That will get the electrons where they need to go.

 

[pjug]

You Tube drives me nuts. It's low effort for the presenter and can be monitized easily, but it takes 20 times more time than reading. If anyone wants to summarize his mods, please do.

Thank you! My god I can't tell you how frustrating it is for me to watch lengthy intros on youtube how-to videos. I watch them anyway because you can find out how to do almost anything, but I really appreciate the ones that get straight to the point.

 

[amirm]

FYI I have a board with all of its upgrades versus a standard one. Have not had time to measure the difference but it will be coming!

 

[amirm]

My god I can't tell you how frustrating it is for me to watch lengthy intros on youtube how-to videos.

I am with you. I don't know why half of these guys think they are doing TV productions with these videos. I don't need a jingle and a bunch of other bits to watch a 10 minute video. Worst yet is to ask for donations, subscriptions, stuff they are selling before getting to the darn meat of the video.

 

[Sonny1]

I’m not a fan of the up-selling but Danny doesn’t charge for his time and has to make a living. The Tube-Connectors aren’t my thing but he doesn’t force anyone to buy them. His prices for the components he sells are reasonable. In the land of $10k power cords and magic crystals, his crossover upgrades are a bargain. And he provides measurements and is a long time proponent of flat frequency response. This hobby is littered with guys trying to make a quick bucks with phony, high $ “upgrades”. Danny does a lot to help audio enthusiasts improve their sound. I don’t always agree with him but I don’t think he’s taking advantage of people. I’ve heard several of his modded speakers and ones that he designed and don’t recall hearing a bad one in the bunch.

 

[beagleman]

I've certainly participated in the upgrade biz. But I have never tried to upsell people on terminals or crossover components. My "upgrades" are confined to better tweeters and revised crossover circuitry, all of which can be measured, and have been measured by Amir and others. You like sand cast resistors? OK with me. You want to use standard binding posts? Sounds good. 16 AWG zip cord inside? That will get the electrons where they need to go.

EXACTLY!

Danny is selling specific upgrade "kits" with higher priced parts. Not the basic caps that would work just fine.
He is then trying to convince that only those parts would work to make things better.

ooh and those crazy tube things. That while not a "bad" idea in theory, are suspect in really providing a benefit also...and they seem to be the dealer installed rustproofing to me....Rant over!

 

[Shazb0t]

EXACTLY!

Danny is selling specific upgrade "kits" with higher priced parts. Not the basic caps that would work just fine.
He is then trying to convince that only those parts would work to make things better.

ooh and those crazy tube things. That while not a "bad" idea in theory, are suspect in really providing a benefit also...and they seem to be the dealer installed rustproofing to me....Rant over!

This is the crux of what's wrong with Danny at GR-Research. He "upgrades" speakers by re-voicing the frequency response and dispersion characteristics. He accomplishes this by modifying the values of components in the existing crossover. He could then post his "upgrade" schematic so people could make the modifications themselves with cheap commercially available audibly transparent parts and experience the speakers as he re-voiced them, but instead he only makes available a component kit of expensive electronical components so that what should be a $10 upgrade costs upwards of $200+. He then tells prospective buyers that the reason the "upgraded" speakers sound better is mostly due to the expensive components themselves and not the fact that he changed the crossover values and re-voiced the speaker. This is wrong think and demonstrates that he is aware that the measurements are of actual importance, but chooses to peddle in snake oil to make a buck off of people who aren't as knowledgeable in electrical engineering.

He is a snake oil salesman that knows how to perform basic speaker measurements while either not understanding basic electrical signals or worse, intentionally misleading customers about them in order to make an extra buck (a bunch of extra bucks in his case). He also "believes" in exotic cables, power cables, and "tube" connector binding posts all having transformational effects on sound quality. He recently tried to "prove" this by hooking up various cables to an old radio tuner, open ended of course, and used the analog signal strength meter on the front to show that cables make a "difference". It wasn't clear to anyone how the differing cables antenna properties proved anything about audibility, but it does go to show you that he doesn't know what he's talking about. He doesn't measure or seem to believe in distortion. He doesn't understand or believe in controlled listening tests. He has a non-ironic affinity for calling people flat earthers if they don't share in his audio voodoo beliefs, especially those who present him with the actual science disproving his false claims. He could easily perform the same function and sell his speakers and kits without all of the bullshit. Presumably he could have been a competent potentially respected designer of loudspeakers. But the money he makes as an audio magic grifter appears to be too alluring to him. He is the personification of the worst things in the audio industry.

 

[77SunsetStrip]

I've certainly participated in the upgrade biz. But I have never tried to upsell people on terminals or crossover components. My "upgrades" are confined to better tweeters and revised crossover circuitry, all of which can be measured, and have been measured by Amir and others. You like sand cast resistors? OK with me. You want to use standard binding posts? Sounds good. 16 AWG zip cord inside? That will get the electrons where they need to go.

Mr. Murphy, Meniscus Audio sells a BMR Philharmonic kit and attributes the design to you. The crossover components pictured include poly caps (no electrolytic), air core inductors, resistors (no sandcast), and a couple iron core inductors. Are those the components you specified or is Meniscus "upselling".

 

[MrPeabody]

This is the Speaker Upgrade - GR Research thread, is it not? How do cables relate to this thread? What is the point of being bothered by a legitimate business? Are you bothered by the marketing "hooey" employed by many speaker manufacturers? I hope you realize there are science based methods of manipulation refined over decades ingrained in the marketing profession.

Trying to establish simple accurate information about GR Research speaker upgrades is not a defense. Danny Ritchie believes in a certain level of quality, certainly not the most expensive. Quality is more costly. Is a $25,000 pair of speakers snake oil if they measure very similar to a $5,000 pair? Dollars to donuts the guy that spent $25,000 will tell you they sound spectacular. If you are happy with lower quality, less costly - go for it.

As I mentioned it was difficult to follow what you were saying, and in particular I did not understand the Ford vs. Chevy thing, since all it suggests to me is that different people have different preferences, which is something that doesn't need to be said and only manages to obfuscate the question of whether all of the stuff he sells, in the speaker upgrades and otherwise, is genuine, in the sense of not being snake oil.

If you take the position of apologist for Ritchie and expect people not to mention the cables, this is probably not a realistic expectation. And even with respect to just the speaker upgrades, there is plenty of snake oil there.

And yes, I am bothered by marketing hooey from many speaker manufacturers, and by other peddlers of snake oil such as power cables that cost hundreds of dollars and even thousands in some cases.

I hope you realize there are science based methods of manipulation refined over decades ingrained in the marketing profession. ... Trying to establish simple accurate information about GR Research speaker upgrades is not a defense.

I have absolutely no idea what you're wanting to say with either of those two sentences.

Danny Ritchie believes in a certain level of quality, certainly not the most expensive. Quality is more costly. Is a $25,000 pair of speakers snake oil if they measure very similar to a $5,000 pair? Dollars to donuts the guy that spent $25,000 will tell you they sound spectacular. If you are happy with lower quality, less costly - go for it.

You seem to be saying that higher cost is not a guarantee of quality and that higher cost is a guarantee of quality. If I could have been certain that you were saying that quality is highly correlated with cost, I would have said that while there is a crude correlation between quality and cost, that by no means is greater cost a guarantee of greater quality. One of the great things that Amir has done is that he has proven beyond any doubt that a lot of products held in high regard by audiophiles are decidedly inferior to the common, affordable stuff.

Some of Ritchie's upgrades are no doubt good and worth the money. But a lot of what he does with the speaker upgrades is snake oil, and the power cables he sells are inarguably snake oil. So on the whole he fails the test for business ethics, because as any ethical business person will tell you, it is not ethical to sell something for a lot more than its true intrinsic value. This has been a fundamental principle of business ethics since forever. That there are lots of other people in the audiophile business who are the same or worse doesn't make any of them any more ethical. It only means that there are a lot of unethical people in the audiophile business.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Mr. Murphy, Meniscus Audio sells a BMR Philharmonic kit and attributes the design to you. The crossover components pictured include poly caps (no electrolytic), air core inductors, resistors (no sandcast), and a couple iron core inductors. Are those the components you specified or is Meniscus "upselling".

I specified the steel laminate inductors to keep dcr at a minimum. Although I don't think anyone can hear the difference between a properly spec'd NPE cap and a poly, particularly in the woofer circuit, there is an issue about value drift over time and I don't consider using high-uF-value poly's as upselling. Mensicus Mark uses whichever resistors he thinks are appropriate. I didn't specify brands or types. The poly caps in the basic kit are very inexpensive. In any event, I don't profit from kit sales. I just wanted to make the BMR available back when I wasn't able to provide it in finished form. I did, of course, choose the components for my AA+ kits, which include a 100 uF NPE cap in order to maintain cabinet volume (100 uF poly's are huge) and keep the kit affordable.

 

[MrPeabody]

... he only makes available a component kit of expensive electronical components so that what should be a $10 upgrade costs upwards of $200+. He then tells prospective buyers that the reason the "upgraded" speakers sound better is mostly due to the expensive components themselves and not the fact that he changed the crossover values and re-voiced the speaker. This is wrong ...

Yes it is wrong. It is a deliberate lie that he tells, so that he can sell expensive crossover components that have nothing to do with the change in the sound. And there is no guarantee that the sound is objectively better, only different.

...He is a snake oil salesman that knows how to perform basic speaker measurements while either not understanding basic electrical signals or worse, intentionally misleading customers about them in order to make an extra buck (a bunch of extra bucks in his case). He also "believes" in exotic cables, power cables, and "tube" connector binding posts all having transformational effects on sound quality. He recently tried to "prove" this by hooking up various cables to an old radio tuner, open ended of course, and used the analog signal strength meter on the front to show that cables make a "difference".

I was in disbelief when he did that. He demonstrated that cables differed in susceptibility to picking up stray noise, and on that basis, through innuendo, he claimed in essence that all cable upgrades are on the up-and-up.

...it does go to show you that he doesn't know what he's talking about. He doesn't measure or seem to believe in distortion. He doesn't understand or believe in controlled listening tests. He has a non-ironic affinity for calling people flat earthers if they don't share in his audio voodoo beliefs, especially those who present him with the actual science disproving his false claims.

Yes, when people proved that his claims were nonsense, he responded by calling them flat-earthers.

... he could have been a competent potentially respected designer of loudspeakers. But the money he makes as an audio magic grifter appears to be too alluring to him. He is the personification of the worst things in the audio industry.

He is a strange character for sure.

 

[Shazb0t]

I specified the steel laminate inductors to keep dcr at a minimum. Although I don't think anyone can hear the difference between a properly spec'd NPE cap and a poly, particularly in the woofer circuit, there is an issue about value drift over time and I don't consider using high-uF-value poly's as upselling. Mensicus Mark uses whichever resistors he thinks are appropriate. I didn't specify brands or types. The poly caps in the basic kit are very inexpensive. In any event, I don't profit from kit sales. I just wanted to make the BMR available back when I wasn't able to provide it in finished form. I did, of course, choose the components for my AA+ kits, which include a 100 uF NPE cap in order to maintain cabinet volume (100 uF poly's are huge) and keep the kit affordable.

There is a considerable difference between a man like Dennis Murphy and one like Danny Richie. To conflate the two is laughable.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

There is a considerable difference between a man like Dennis Murphy and one like Danny Richie. To conflate the two is laughable.

That's quite true. Danny is much better looking. And he's actually a very nice guy. We go back almost 20 years.

 

[Shazb0t]

That's quite true. Danny is much better looking. And he's actually a very nice guy. We go back almost 20 years.

He may very well be a nice guy. He still sells snake oil. Last time I stick my neck out for you, lol.

 

[77SunsetStrip]

I specified the steel laminate inductors to keep dcr at a minimum. Although I don't think anyone can hear the difference between a properly spec'd NPE cap and a poly, particularly in the woofer circuit, there is an issue about value drift over time and I don't consider using high-uF-value poly's as upselling. Mensicus Mark uses whichever resistors he thinks are appropriate. I didn't specify brands or types. The poly caps in the basic kit are very inexpensive. In any event, I don't profit from kit sales. I just wanted to make the BMR available back when I wasn't able to provide it in finished form. I did, of course, choose the components for my AA+ kits, which include a 100 uF NPE cap in order to maintain cabinet volume (100 uF poly's are huge) and keep the kit affordable.

Thank you Mr. Murphy for a straightforward answer to a simple and direct question. I particularly appreciate your not wandering off topic into tangential rants, expressing assumptions about what I am thinking, or insult others in your field.