Speaker Upgrades - GR Research

[amirm]

Amir, that is quite the leap. C'mon Man, you are better than that kind of exaggeration and convoluted logic.

Convoluted logic? People see a person in youtube in a "lab coat" and immediately think he is an authority and believe what he says. Why do you think I had to do not one, but two videos debunking stuff he says?

Between these two, there are nearly 1,400 comments posted! People care and want to know the reality of audio and what Denny is doing is a major disservice.

Trashing another in order to elevate yourself is not a winning formula.

I don't trash the individual. I show how as a matter of electronics theory and in situ measurements what he is saying has zero ground in reality. It is up to us to do something when misinformation of such great magnitude is spread. If your standard is that misinformation should be left out there to make folks feel good, then you and I have completely different priorities. Please move along and don't use such debating tactics on me.

Measure to your hearts content. Present the data to stand on it's own merit. Some will benefit, some will not. After all, this is just a hobby about personal enjoyment. If that enjoyment means discussing the minutia of data, go for it. If enjoyment means spending big bucks, good for you. Get over somebody not in lock step with you. Difference is the spice of life.

The fact that you are apathetic about right or wrong in audio science and engineering is your business. Don't make it mine. I enjoy educating people about the reality of this field. That is why this site exists. And is the reason I started to produce the above videos. If it bothers you, then you are in the wrong forum.

As to hobbies, you are pretty confused on that front. We all have multiple hobbies. One is enjoying music. To the extent we are not discussing the music itself, then we are not discussing that hobby. When we talk about the gear, that is NOT music enjoyment. It is a hobby to interact with others and learn or argue about what makes good sound or not. You can have your own opinions here but the moment you do videos like Danny does and tells people that anyone who follows proper engineering and science is "flat earther" and that he knows more than the rest of us, he deserves counter. Please don't lecture me about your sensibilities. We are different people with different knowledge of this field and motivations.

 

[dfuller]

Way I see it, some of what he does is solidly understood filter and speaker design, and some of what he does is absolute snake oil nonsense.

Tweaking crossovers for better values/redesigning the filters to smooth the response of the drivers? Sure, that's cool, whatever, I'm always a fan of genuinely audible improvements. Making the cabinet more inert? Sure, if it's a particularly resonant cabinet, that's a good idea.

The expensive parts... Just no. Total nonsense. None of this stuff matters at audio frequencies (with the exception, perhaps, of iron core vs air core inductors - but I don't know enough to speak on it). High ESR caps aren't great, but they're really only an issue with nonpolar electrolytics, and even then bypassing them with a small value film cap or something deals with that nicely. There's no reason to get hyper-expensive giant size film caps, it doesn't matter in this application in the slightest. Don't get me started on the absolute bullshit that is expensive power cables.

 

[beagleman]

Amir, that is quite the leap. C'mon Man, you are better than that kind of exaggeration and convoluted logic. Just as illogical as saying because you have a company selling X,Y,Z you have no right to review X,Y,Z. Trashing another in order to elevate yourself is not a winning formula. Nor is the claim that your noble intent to educate the ignorant is superior. Do you really want to start a debate about who is within their "borders"?

Measure to your hearts content. Present the data to stand on it's own merit. Some will benefit, some will not. After all, this is just a hobby about personal enjoyment. If that enjoyment means discussing the minutia of data, go for it. If enjoyment means spending big bucks, good for you. Get over somebody not in lock step with you. Difference is the spice of life.

I am not one to defend people usually, as they can mostly do that for themselves, but ..........

I think you would be better retracting (some of) your comments or modifying them, OR maybe rereading how they come off.
Not that I doubt you believe what you say, but they come off as a bit of a personal attack and rooted partially perhaps in your dislike of what Amir is doing, and maybe some misunderstandings.

Amir does not really trash talk anyone, but just tells it like it is, as far as some of the ideas and aspects of how things are being done. I am NOT always in agreement with everything here, but there is an eloquent way of saying things, and a time to just let disagreements fall by the wayside.

 

[MrPeabody]

Danny is not a big offender in the snake oil business at all. Lets see, he redesigns crossovers and when doing so uses much more expensive parts. He also adds in decent wire, No Rez and tube connectors. He gives you before and after tests showing the flattening of the response so you can make a judgement on buying the kit based on its results. The kits sell for about $200 to $400 for a pair of speakers. If you want he will also sell you speaker wire. He didn't use to sell wire but due to many requests, he started. His customers were requesting wire from him and he supplied it.

He does the initial testing on speakers you send in for free. He is running a business and needs to make a profit. He pretty much says here is what I recommend at this price, if you want it buy it. It is all very, very cheap in the world of audio. No real money spent. There are so many companies in audio, hundreds if not thousands? that are truly ripping people off every day. If people want to get their panties in a knot, I would say to go after the big players. Danny is just offering inexpensive tweaks, and yes they are tweaks to existing speakers.

One last point that fries my knickers is people who want Danny to give out free crossover designs that he took time and effort to design. That is idiotic and goes against all business principles on our planet. It really roasts my nuts as I had a business and idiots tried the same tactic after I put in thousands of hours on a product. They thought I should give away my product manufacturing information for free. So, while I do not support Danny in that I will most likely never get a speaker upgrade, he is doing a decent job of offering a service to people who want what he is selling and he provides tests to let the customer know, this is what you are getting. Of course, I'm excluding wires, interconnects and such. I see nothing wrong with that.

I can't believe I'm sticking up for Danny and I don't believe in tube connectors, expensive air core inductors or high dollar caps. You guys have gotten to me! But, that's a good thing.

He sells power cables for ~ $300. His markup is probably at least 1000%.

 

[MrPeabody]

Amir, that is quite the leap. C'mon Man, you are better than that kind of exaggeration and convoluted logic. Just as illogical as saying because you have a company selling X,Y,Z you have no right to review X,Y,Z. Trashing another in order to elevate yourself is not a winning formula. Nor is the claim that your noble intent to educate the ignorant is superior. Do you really want to start a debate about who is within their "borders"?

Measure to your hearts content. Present the data to stand on it's own merit. Some will benefit, some will not. After all, this is just a hobby about personal enjoyment. If that enjoyment means discussing the minutia of data, go for it. If enjoyment means spending big bucks, good for you. Get over somebody not in lock step with you. Difference is the spice of life.

Talk about going beyond your borders. Amir had simply written this:

... by giving bad education on benefits of nonsense in audio he gives license to people to waste money elsewhere. This is a terrible thing and needs to be addressed as it goes way beyond his borders.

It is a matter-of-fact commentary that is perfectly on target. What I don't understand is why it is that people who take a "live and let live" stance are not willing to take the same stance with people who point out in a matter-of-fact way that there is a lot of chicanery and fraud in the audio industry. Why is it that people who mark up cables by 1000% are not offensive, while people who point out that this kind of thing is going on are offensive? This seems a curious psychological phenomenon to me.

 

[MrPeabody]

I am one of those that would love to see his crossover changes, but NOT to emulate them, but more out of pure curiosity as to what changes he made and what results they gave.

Almost all other DIY guys that mod crossovers, do this, and explain what they changed and WHY, and how it impacted the response and go into much more detail about how it changes other aspects such as impedance and phase angles, and distortion etc.

That lends a lot more credibility to the changes and gives concrete evidence as to how and why their design is better.

Great example of what I mentioned from one of our members on this forum!

https://sites.google.com/view/sehlin-sound-solutions/hivi-diy-3-1-modifications

That's an excellent example of someone willing to do something for the benefit of others. Still, I don't have a problem with Danny selling crossover mods, but I don't like the way he uses the crossover mods to facilitate selling a lot of grossly overpriced components that don't do anything that other components that are far more reasonably priced will do just the same, so long as the actual parameter values are a close match.

 

[SIY]

High ESR caps aren't great, but they're really only an issue with nonpolar electrolytics, and even then bypassing them with a small value film cap or something deals with that nicely.

Pedantic point: that usually will not fix excessive ESR.

I had the opposite problem with my late and beloved Maggie MG-1s- being young and naïve, I followed the recommendations of the (new at the time) articles by Marsh and Curl and replaced the electrolytic coupling cap to the tweeter with a polypropylene cap. I was delighted with the extra detail, but it wore quickly on me. Then I realized that I had slightly elevated the treble, put the electrolytic back in, and re-enjoyed the things that I loved about those speakers.

That was my first hint not to believe stuff like those articles.

 

[MrPeabody]

Some people are simply bothered by a status quo where a great many people are being taken advantage of. People who get taken advantage of are generally of two types: (1.) people who have more money than they know what to do with it and spend it on audio as an expensive hobby, (2.) people who can't really afford the audio stuff they buy but who buy it because they have a psychological affliction-addiction to spending money on audio gear. Even if everyone who gets taken advantage of belongs to category (1), it would not bother me in the least for an empathetic bystander to step up and tell people that they are being taken advantage of. Why would this bother me? But in fact there are probably hundreds of thousands, possibly even millions of people belonging to category (2). They can't afford their spending habit, and they are trapped partly because they lack the technical knowledge to think their way out of it on their own. What's not to like about the empathetic bystander who endeavors out of the goodness of his heart to lend these people the helping hand that they obviously need? Why is it that some people are bothered by what Amir does? I don't get it. I like what he does, and cannot think of a single good reason why I would discourage him from doing it.

 

[77SunsetStrip]

After hitting the post button, had second thoughts might have been too harsh. After the flurry of replies, nope. Getting on a higher horse and dressing up tearing someone else down with flowery language does not fly. I am not he one with a personal axe to grind.

Mr. Peabody, before the term "fraud" is thrown around so freely, provide a dozen examples of customers claiming Danny R. defrauded them. Guess you think is NOT offensive to pull a 1000% mark up out of thin air then use that fiction as proof of fraud.

 

[spacevector]

I've been considering upgrading my RP-600Ms recently, but probably once the warranty expires. I originally bought these Klipsch speakers because of all the high acclaim from YouTube and Stereophile reviews, given by the best snake oil salesman of course, which is something I intend to steer clear of for most future audio purchases. I'm still debating whether I should buy the $250 JBL Stage A130s before the $209 RP-600M upgrade (which would be after a few years for warranty's sake, just in case).

Why not just use EQ similar to what amirm did in his review?

 

[silentt29]

Why not just use EQ similar to what amirm did in his review?

I currently don't own an EQ or a Roon device. My RP-600Ms are simply connected to my R-S201 receiver, which only has simple bass and treble controls. I'm considering the Schiit Loki Mini+ ($150).

 

[Rick Sykora]

What Danny is doing is worse than the snake oil salesman. He is peddling his snake oil products right along with his own brand of seemingly reasonable products. Note that you cannot get the parts for his speakers from any of the normal channels. Meanwhile you are being given a steady stream of why his approach is better and that everyone else is lying to you. There are many better alternatives to his speaker designs that are inexpensive or free.

Sure you can rationalize that some of what he does has value (I have previously), but does not mean he should be excused from huckstering others.

 

[dfuller]

Pedantic point: that usually will not fix excessive ESR.

I had the opposite problem with my late and beloved Maggie MG-1s- being young and naïve, I followed the recommendations of the (new at the time) articles by Marsh and Curl and replaced the electrolytic coupling cap to the tweeter with a polypropylene cap. I was delighted with the extra detail, but it wore quickly on me. Then I realized that I had slightly elevated the treble, put the electrolytic back in, and re-enjoyed the things that I loved about those speakers.

That was my first hint not to believe stuff like those articles.

I was under the impression that it two caps in parallel have their capacitance sum, but any ESR would behave like resistors paralleled. Perhaps I'm incorrect.

What Danny is doing is worse than the snake oil salesman. He is hawking his snake oil products right along with his own brand of seemingly reasonable products. Note that you cannot get the parts for his speakers from any of the normal channels. Meanwhile you are being given a steady stream of why his approach is better and that everyone else is lying to you. There are many better alternatives to his speaker designs that are inexpensive or free.

Sure you can rationalize that some of what he does has value (I have previously), but does not mean he should be excused from huckstering others.

Yep. I don't put stock in electronic component material mattering much if at all, because realistically... it doesn't matter that much. I put stock in values being the right ones and the design of the filters being competent.

 

[SIY]

I was under the impression that it two caps in parallel have their capacitance sum, but any ESR would behave like resistors paralleled. Perhaps I'm incorrect.

In most cases, that's not right- remember, the capacitance part has an impedance as well, in series with the ESR. For a small "bypass" cap, that impedance will generally be large compared to the capacitive impedance of the cap being bypassed.

In a case where you have, say, a 100u electrolytic bypassed by a 100u polypropylene, sure, this will lower the ESR, but this is a pretty atypical case. The bypass cap is generally 10-100 times smaller which means the capacitive part of the impedance will be 10-100 times larger.

In electronic circuits, we also have the fun of inadvertently creating a parallel resonator.

 

[Plcamp]

Danny has a primary focus on reinforcing the illusion with his religious followers that he possesses unique knowledge at a level beyond what normal plebes could ever aspire to achieve, and therefore what he says should simply be adopted, never questioned.

Because he has no actual education on the physics governing sound reproduction...he is forced to discredit those folks who do - else he would lose his desired ‘king of the hill’ claim, and his disciples would scatter.

This governs and dominates his behaviour. So the question becomes...why would you trust ANYTHING
he states?

I don’t see the point in trying to discover where kernels of truth might exist within a guy who has no aptitude nor interest in actually following truth. His motivations are clearly elsewhere.

 

[jonfitch]

I don't really get Danny's crossovers, he smooths the on-axis FR but the trade-off almost always seems to be a really weird off-axis tweeter peak because he loves boosting the tweeter output. I'd be really curious to see the effect of his crossovers on a spinorama/power response.

 

[Beave]

I don't really get Danny's crossovers, he smooths the on-axis FR but the trade-off almost always seems to be a really weird off-axis tweeter peak because he loves boosting the tweeter output. I'd be really curious to see the effect of his crossovers on a spinorama/power response.

When you have a speaker that has something like a 6" woofer mated with a 1" tweeter on a flat baffle (no waveguide), flattening the on-axis response is usually (nearly always?) going to result in an off-axis dip and flare in the response, due to non-matching directivities of the two drivers at the crossover frequency.

At the crossover, the woofer radiation pattern has narrowed considerably. But the tweeter radiation pattern is quite broad. They don't match.

So some of these speakers are designed with a small on-axis dip in the region where the off-axis flare occurs, sort of as a way to balance out the problem. The result is that the on-axis response isn't ideally flat, but the sound power response isn't so bad.

By flattening the on-axis response of such a speaker, he's worsening the off-axis response. The net result may or may not be perceived as an improvement in sound quality.

 

[BN1]

As with most reviews and forums, I read thru this one for the entertainment value and a bit of "education" (note - I'm pretty far back on the learning curve compared to most who have posted). I have about 6-10 such sites that I read regularly; including GR Res, Amir's, Erin's, Audioholics, Guttenberg's, etc. Most have their supporters and detractors. Richie caught my eye when he modified the Elac Debut 6.2 speaker by addressing the cabinet, the woofer cage, and the cross-over and essentially predicted the exact changes that Elac implemented in creating their widely acclaimed Debut Reference series speakers (and DR notes that he used better c/o components). I also followed the changes made to the Klipsch RP-600M and heard Ron at NRD say that maybe the changes on this speaker didn't seem to justify the cost and effort (not exactly his words ...). Is DR a "snake-oil salesman" ? Probably not, and incrementally his changes seem to make sense (directionally correct ???) but maybe not something that my old ears/damaged hearing can detect. DR seems to be an experienced person in the audio field and can likely focus on specific changes that he makes and knows what to look for (ok, tube connectors and cables may be exceptions ...) and he hears a difference. Would I make the changes that he recommends, maybe for the educational experience but maybe not for expecting drastic improvements in what I hear.

 

[MrPeabody]

After hitting the post button, had second thoughts might have been too harsh. After the flurry of replies, nope. Getting on a higher horse and dressing up tearing someone else down with flowery language does not fly. I am not he one with a personal axe to grind.

Mr. Peabody, before the term "fraud" is thrown around so freely, provide a dozen examples of customers claiming Danny R. defrauded them. Guess you think is NOT offensive to pull a 1000% mark up out of thin air then use that fiction as proof of fraud.

I had not looked at this thread for two months but it came up again today with a new post, which was when I saw this ridiculous post. It is perfectly ridiculous. Fraud is committed whenever a false representation is made when selling a product. A false representation is made with power cords whenever the seller claims or even insinuates that the aftermarket power cord will improve sound quality. It is a false claim, therefore it is fraud. To look at it any other way is to pretend that it is more complex than it truly is. And as for fiction, my 1000% number is quite obviously a guesstimate, but even though it is only a guesstimate, it is in all likelihood a pretty good guesstimate because it is difficult to fathom how a damned power cord could cost more than about $30 to manufacture, and $300 is greater than $30 by 1000%. In fact, the manufacturing cost for a power made in certain Asian countries is probably not more than $10. So it isn't fiction, and you have no reason at all to call it fiction unless you have reliable data on the manufacturing cost of a power cable made in the places where such things are usually made. The whole power cord business is a RACKET, plain and simple, and everyone on the planet who isn't an idiot knows perfectly well that it is.

 

[beagleman]

What Danny is doing is worse than the snake oil salesman. He is hawking his snake oil products right along with his own brand of seemingly reasonable products. Note that you cannot get the parts for his speakers from any of the normal channels. Meanwhile you are being given a steady stream of why his approach is better and that everyone else is lying to you. There are many better alternatives to his speaker designs that are inexpensive or free.

Sure you can rationalize that some of what he does has value (I have previously), but does not mean he should be excused from huckstering others.

I think he seems like a great guy, very nice, easy to listen to, and for the most part sorta knows his stuff.

Where he goes astray, is using that "honest and friendly" personality, to push high priced caps, and tube connectors on the unsuspecting people, that have no idea, that these things are just over-priced stuff that does not make any difference.

A lot of "Cheese" and Snake oil.