Review and Measurements of Yamaha RX-A1080 AVR

[peng]

Hi the forum
Do we know What is the impact of the volume contrôle on sound quality, analogue in to analogue output? In pure direct mode of course. I would like to understand if the preamp section is good enough for stereo only?
Regards
Stan

I see that @GXAlan just speculated on this, so I guess I would join in, just for a fun discussion, potentially. Instead of going with measurements of the CX-A5200, that Gene found some anomalies, I would consider the volume control IC used in quite a few RX-A devices as Stan 10's question is specifically about the impact of the volume control on sound quality.

From the service manual of the CX-A5200, the volume control IC used is the following:

Unlike D+M, who updated/upgraded such a vol chip from a LSI (large scale integrated) multipurpose IC to a MSI (medium scale integrated) one that is designed for volume control only, Yamaha seems to want to stick with the LSI chip, that is Rohm's BD3470 series.

Fortunately, the datasheet of this relatively not too old LSI chip is still available, so let's take a look of its THD+N versus output level:

At input V = 0.5 V, THD+N is about 0.0006%, or -104 dB

D+M's volume chip probably did a couple dB better on paper but clearly the volume control chip itself should have no impact as it likely has better THD+N than the up or downstream parts such as Op amps.

 

[Stan10]

I see that @GXAlan just speculated on this, so I guess I would join in, just for a fun discussion, potentially. Instead of going with measurements of the CX-A5200, that Gene found some anomalies, I would consider the volume control IC used in quite a few RX-A devices as Stan 10's question is specifically about the impact of the volume control on sound quality.

From the service manual of the CX-A5200, the volume control IC used is the following:

View attachment 328282

Unlike D+M, who updated/upgraded such a vol chip from a LSI (large scale integrated) multipurpose IC to a MSI (medium scale integrated) one that is designed for volume control only, Yamaha seems to want to stick with the LSI chip, that is Rohm's BD3470 series.

Fortunately, the datasheet of this relatively not too old LSI chip is still available, so let's take a look of its THD+N versus output level:

At input V = 0.5 V, THD+N is about 0.0006%, or -104 dB

D+M's volume chip probably did a couple dB better on paper but clearly the volume control chip itself should have no impact as it likely has better THD+N than the up or downstream parts such as Op amps.

View attachment 328287

Thanks for the Quick reply. As any good audiophile i would like to know where to put my money? new audio preamp or a better power amp?

 

[GXAlan]

Thanks for the Quick reply. As any good audiophile i would like to know where to put my money? new audio preamp or a better power amp?

Always better speakers…

What are you using right now?

 

[Stan10]

Always better speakers…

What are you using right now?

Speaker-Canton A45 i do not want to change i really love it i ‘m sure they did not reach their full potential yet. I’m just back from the Brussels audio show i can tell at this price range this brand is underestimated.
Yamaha Avantage 1060.
Power amp Harman Kardon signature 1.5 20 years old still work fine
Dac Denafrips Pontus 12th
bluray player as a streamer too and yes it sound better than a lap top with Volumio. Not sure if a real streamer will make a big difference

 

[GXAlan]

Speaker-Canton A45 i do not want to change i really love it i ‘m sure they did not reach their full potential yet. I’m just back from the Brussels audio show i can tell at this price range this brand is underestimated.
Yamaha Avantage 1060.
Power amp Harman Kardon signature 1.5 20 years old still work fine
Dac Denafrips Pontus 12th
bluray player as a streamer too and yes it sound better than a lap top with Volumio. Not sure if a real streamer will make a big difference

I have gone through a long process of trying of doing the usual. Finding great speakers and then trying to maximize their potential with electronics. I, for one, do believe that the amplifier plays a bigger difference than the DAC or preamp.

That said, after a lot of time in the hobby and more recently time on ASR matching subjective with objective analysis, I have come to this conclusion.

Supposed you have a great speaker rated at “100 points” and your electronics only allow you to reach 80% of the potential. You can spend money to reach 90 or 100% of the potential on electronics.

On the other hand, suppose you can upgrade your speaker to one that is rated at 200 points but your existing electronics only allow you to reach 60% now. The new speaker further is being held back from its potential.

In this case, you have gone from 80 to 120 points instead of 80-100…

The biggest challenge is that selling/upgrading speakers is logistically a nightmare compared to selling/upgrading electronics.

I spent a ton of time going through electronics. Accuphase Class A amps to the latest Marantz Reference PM-10/SA-10 combo. Every electronic upgrade gave me a subjective improvement AND I was able to measure differences.

But today, my best setup is the Meyer Sound Amie with a cheap Sony UBP-X800M2 BluRay player going into an older Yamaha 11 channel AVP.

The Marantz SA-10 into a Schiit Freya passive volume attenuator into the Meyer Sound Amie gave me the best sound. But in order to “afford” the Amie, I sold my Marantz stack and went with cheaper electronics and I maybe gave up 5% of performance.

Put the money in a separate account and save up for even better speakers. Trust me…

 

[peng]

Thanks for the Quick reply. As any good audiophile i would like to know where to put my money? new audio preamp or a better power amp?

If the HK signature 1.5, after 20 years is still in top shape then I would just keep using it. The RX-A1080 as preamp is a good match for the HK amp in terms of it's optimal output of around 1 to 1.5 V and the power amp's relatively high gain. In reality, putting the money on a better AVR or AVP that can benefit from room correction such as Dirac Live should give you more bang than "upgrading" to a separate preamp or integrated amp that may or may not do better on paper, and most likely not in terms of sound quality unless it too, can use good RC solutions (Dirac, or even Audyssey XT32 with the $200 MultEQ X app), both RC/EQ products are on sale right now.

 

[peng]

I have gone through a long process of trying of doing the usual. Finding great speakers and then trying to maximize their potential with electronics. I, for one, do believe that the amplifier plays a bigger difference than the DAC or preamp.

That said, after a lot of time in the hobby and more recently time on ASR matching subjective with objective analysis, I have come to this conclusion.

Supposed you have a great speaker rated at “100 points” and your electronics only allow you to reach 80% of the potential. You can spend money to reach 90 or 100% of the potential on electronics.

On the other hand, suppose you can upgrade your speaker to one that is rated at 200 points but your existing electronics only allow you to reach 60% now. The new speaker further is being held back from its potential.

In this case, you have gone from 80 to 120 points instead of 80-100…

The biggest challenge is that selling/upgrading speakers is logistically a nightmare compared to selling/upgrading electronics.

I spent a ton of time going through electronics. Accuphase Class A amps to the latest Marantz Reference PM-10/SA-10 combo. Every electronic upgrade gave me a subjective improvement AND I was able to measure differences.

But today, my best setup is the Meyer Sound Amie with a cheap Sony UBP-X800M2 BluRay player going into an older Yamaha 11 channel AVP.

The Marantz SA-10 into a Schiit Freya passive volume attenuator into the Meyer Sound Amie gave me the best sound. But in order to “afford” the Amie, I sold my Marantz stack and went with cheaper electronics and I maybe gave up 5% of performance.

Put the money in a separate account and save up for even better speakers. Trust me…

What from your measurements between your gear do you think are the reasons for the perceived improvements going from amplifier A to amplifier B? Were the improvements heard in sighted tests? Thanks.

 

[GXAlan]

What from your measurements between your gear do you think are the reasons for the perceived improvements going from amplifier A to amplifier B? Were the improvements heard in sighted tests? Thanks.

300B SETs do have a special effect with treble. This is seen with speaker level measurements as opposed to resistor based measurements which should an inverted loudness curve. The louder something is, the louder the boost. Since this single is largely dependent on the load not the SPL you can clearly see the idea of matching amp and speaker. If you sit close, you need less efficient speakers to get into the portion where the 300B loses linearity and if you have more efficient speakers you have to sit further back.

For the differences between the Marantz PM-10 versus Kenwood L-08M versus Fosi V3, it’s less clear. I have shown PKmetric comparisons between the PM-10 and V3 showing the difference in bass and differences in the mid range.

The L-08M I haven’t spent enough time characterizing. Its the only amp of the three I still have.

 

[Miker 1102]

Thank you again for another detailed and must be time consuming review with so much measurements.

You assumption of "only one DAC....." is not correct. Most such AVR likely have two different DAC versions. I have seen the PCM5101 used in some Yamaha RX-A series for Zone2 and Zone3, but I am not sure if the coax and optical inputs are also routed to that DAC. The PCM5101, or the lower grade PCM5100 DACs certainly have lower THD+N specs than the ES9006.



"Almost" is the key word, I assume we can at least agree that it is in fact a "stand out" among the recently tested NAD T758 V3 and MRX520, if based on pure direct, analog in, and even HDMI in performance without DRC, am I right? The 3 AVRs are roughly in the same price range. Based on Crutchfield.com price (they have all 3), the Yamaha is

But the A-S801 is a good example of an AVR related integrated amp. Unless you use the USB DAC feature, the optical and coax signals are routed to the lower end dac, not the ES9010 K2M. It also has the same kind of LSI chip for the vol control. If the user does not know such facts, they will hear much better sound quality than the RX-A AVRs, such the 3080..

Do you think you that these facts apply to this avr review ..like he didn't know there wasn't more than one DAC and that the 1080 advertises the ess dac for high res playing. I mean the right dac was measured for this,correct? I am the least person to question this but the dac output seemed very low to me for what is was.

 

[peng]

Do you think you that these facts apply to this avr review ..like he didn't know there wasn't more than one DAC and that the 1080 advertises the ess dac for high res playing. I mean the right dac was measured for this,correct? I am the least person to question this but the dac output seemed very low to me for what is was.

I am sure Amir measured the main (assuming that's what you meant by "correct") DAC because he typically measured the front left and right channels.
The main dac in the RX-A1080 is, as per Yamaha specs, the ES9007S. I could not find the data sheet for this dac chip, but by all indication, it looks like it is the same as the ES9006S, the 9007 number might have been assigned to Yamaha's for those RX-A AVRs.

 

[Miker 1102]

Thank you for your response. I appreciate it.

 

[dlaloum]

I see that @GXAlan just speculated on this, so I guess I would join in, just for a fun discussion, potentially. Instead of going with measurements of the CX-A5200, that Gene found some anomalies, I would consider the volume control IC used in quite a few RX-A devices as Stan 10's question is specifically about the impact of the volume control on sound quality.

From the service manual of the CX-A5200, the volume control IC used is the following:

View attachment 328282

Unlike D+M, who updated/upgraded such a vol chip from a LSI (large scale integrated) multipurpose IC to a MSI (medium scale integrated) one that is designed for volume control only, Yamaha seems to want to stick with the LSI chip, that is Rohm's BD3470 series.

Fortunately, the datasheet of this relatively not too old LSI chip is still available, so let's take a look of its THD+N versus output level:

At input V = 0.5 V, THD+N is about 0.0006%, or -104 dB

D+M's volume chip probably did a couple dB better on paper but clearly the volume control chip itself should have no impact as it likely has better THD+N than the up or downstream parts such as Op amps.

View attachment 328287

Gain matching issues between the various stages could easily lose a handful of db at each stage - the better chips will regain some of that handful with their better specs... but if the gain match is off, they could go backwards too...