Response to PS Audio on P12 PowerPlant Measurements (Video)

[Pogre]

It's so satisfying watching Paul squirm. This is wonderful, lol.

 

[Astoneroad]

I think Amir is doing just fine with his rebuttals, I love seeing a sales man squirm...

Ohms

 

[Spkrdctr]

Funny choice of terms... Makes it sound like he is explaining how magic works. Problem is, none of this is magic, he just needs folks to believe it is.

A statement was posted on the original thread where Paul DOES STATE that "The magic happens inside the box". If he believes it, then it must be true!

 

[DACs_Lover]

As a user of Benchmark products, I know right away that an audiophile power regen device is a scam because a small AHB2 uses a switching power supply and delivers the best of its class performance. It means a clever design is the most important. No big accessory is needed. I stopped watching Paul clips.

 

[Joppe Peelen]

Hihi i liked this part the best.

and then after this comes along

quite clear who is in the marketing department though

 

[Astoneroad]

 

[Spkrdctr]

There are two things I think about when listening to Paul. Being an old duffer myself, a lot of what he says (if not all) is from the audio world of the 1970s and into the 80s. I hear him and think, that is what I thought 40 years ago too. Before we had the measurement (and computing power) equipment to really dig deep into the audio chain. It is like Paul doesn't realize that technology has passed him by. The testing of todays equipment and speakers is so advanced to 40 year old testing it is an entirely different process. I don't understand why he is so out of date with younger engineers working there. Seems strange. This is the same issue for his 110% support and belief that DSD is the best most awesomest product to come onto the audio scene. Many (thousands?) of engineers have shown it to not be all that great compared to what we have now. Amir has even explained it. But Paul just plows ahead with his outdated view of technology that he buys into from other out of date subjectivists.

Watching his set up video for the FRS 30 speakers at a guys house made me cringe. I mean really made me uncomfortable. It was obvious a few times the owner thought Paul's change was worse than before. But, the owner was very polite and didn't say anything. There was so much wrong with that video that I was appalled. But that is a different topic.

Paul is 100% a subjectivist and believes that you use your ears to refine the audio chain. His engineers must go along with it because they get paid well. The only guy I have heard that corrects Paul in videos and does it very nicely is head speaker designer Chris. He knows better and corrects Paul's flights of fancy as much as he can. Chris has a lot of patience to do what he does.

 

[TheBatsEar]

quite clear who is in the marketing department though

Yeah, i have been in a situation where i should, as an (IT) engineer, defend the ridonculous security and reliability claims of the sales department.
Didn't do it, became persona non grata. Once management was replaced (as it happens often in large corporations), i got my old status back.

I don't like it when engineers get squeezed like that. He probably would like to say "Listen, keep me out of this, you wanted this built, i did it to make pay. YOU sell it.".
Maybe he can't because he has a mortgage to pay.
Maybe he is overly loyal.

But we all know if you sit down with this dude and look at the measurements, he will agree that this contraption does nothing for your audio signal.

 

[xaviescacs]

Hihi i liked this part the best.

and then after this comes along

quite clear who is in the marketing department though

Don't know, but there is something strange here. Bob is not comfortable. Or he is afraid of cameras or he's afraid of something else, but he's definitely afraid of something. Maybe the presence of the CEO makes this video a bit uncomfortable?

Furthermore, do you think it's a way to deal with the chief engineer? In such a company, the chief engineer is by far much more important than the CEO, or at least it should be, and generally is someone who has offers from other companies and retaining him it's not an easy task, etc etc This video depicts a quite different situation IMHO.

Have you noticed how Bob looks at the infinitum for one second when Paul says he is the designer of the device? Why on earth do you want this man to go through this? If I were him I would be looking for another job just after this.

I've said that before, but this video just goes to show the same. If Paul trusted their team, he wouldn't appear on this video, at all. He's acting like the founder and owner of a familiar company that makes cheese, were he learned that from his grandpa and is passing the knowledge down to next generations. This is not a serious behavior of a tech company's CEO.

In some way all this looks like me with my 20 € multimeter testing if my son's Lego train is broken or just the batteries are misplaced.

 

[iMickey503]

(Video is unlisted, lets keep this here to ourselves)

 

[Midwest Blade]

As always, thanks for all of your reviews. While the whole audio industry struggles with the divide of subjective opinion versus objective fact, it is so very important that we can asses products in in a true fashion.

Unfortunately not enough hours in a day, days in a week, weeks in a month or months in a year to test everything.

 

[TheBatsEar]

The reddit people don't seem to be too fond of ASR:
https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/tnfmhk
Strange up/down voting going on in the comments.

 

[solderdude]

Some of that may be true but how much of this (from the PS Audio website) is? Do you believe that there's an audible improvement?

lets put it to the test: correct info.... weeeeellllll info and within constraints

The DirectStream Power Plant 12 takes your incoming AC power and regenerate new sine-wave-perfect, regulated high current AC power. In the process of regeneration any problems on your power line such as low voltage, distorted waveforms, sagging power and noise are eliminated. The results are both audibly and visually stunning when powering either audio or video products. Further, the level of protection afforded connected equipment is extraordinary. Feel 100% confident that a P12 will provide pure and safe power under any condition. Don’t starve your music or risk damaging your equipment. A P12 gives you greatly improved performance and safety from just plugging into the wall socket and far better dynamics, bass and a much bigger, open soundstage than any passive power conditioner on the market.

And this is the problem.... truths mixed with not (so) truths.
Lets analyze what's been stated.

The DirectStream Power Plant 12 takes your incoming AC power and regenerate new sine-wave-perfect, regulated high current AC power.

The OLD versions did just that. They had an efficiency issue (and heat as an effect). The newer generation works a bit differently in an attempt to keep the temperature down and increase efficiency. It takes the incoming AC and corrects the biggest and lowest frequency errors.
There is also surge suppression and mains filtering.
The difference between the input voltage/waveform versus a regenerated and synchronized 'ideal sine' is then added/subtracted using a built-in power amp from the incoming and 'distorted' mains resulting in a regulated and low output R better quality mains output voltage.

In the process of regeneration any problems on your power line such as low voltage, distorted waveforms, sagging power and noise are eliminated.

The lie is in the eliminated part. Distortion is lowered, at least the lower frequencies. At the lowest frequencies Amirs measurements show noise even increased. The RF noise is filtered and ground loops are not broken. They probably were in the older designs. Sagging power and peaking power is corrected within a certain range. Short power interruptions (when very short) can even be bridged, those lasting more than a few seconds can't. A regenerative UPS with batteries can. So not eliminated but improved.

The results are both audibly and visually stunning when powering either audio or video products.

No blind tests or scientific evidence. Just many many subjective sighted reports. All extremely unlikely.

Further, the level of protection afforded connected equipment is extraordinary.

Yes, I would assume, as long as it does not develop a fault this is true... the extraordinary bit is in the eyes of the manufacturer who depends on sales

Feel 100% confident that a P12 will provide pure and safe power under any condition.

I agree. and this factor, the 'insurance' your power is good is an important factor in the listening process. When one has the feeling the source which provides all the power is good the music is good. This is reinforced by the display, heavy device etc.

Don’t starve your music or risk damaging your equipment.

Yeah we don't want 'starved' music do we. How is music starved ?
Risk damaging equipment is a valid concern for some folks.

A P12 gives you greatly improved performance

No evidence of that. The point Amir tries to make. Of course the max. power output of the music system could be higher than when connected directly to mains, could remain the same or be slightly less. This all depends on the mains voltage, wiring, and used equipment.
Could improve, could do nothing, could be less.

and safety from just plugging into the wall socket and far better dynamics, bass and a much bigger, open soundstage than any passive power conditioner on the market.

Safety... sure.
Better dynamics, bass and bigger more open soundstage... we all want that except it has nothing to do with mains quality but everything with power and perception.
Better than any passive power conditioner ?? it depends on the quality of the mains one has, what gear is connected and what problems one has.

 

[Ricardus]

Cut Paul some slack. He is selling AC regulators. Does it regulate? Yes.
I like him, he is a very nice guy and he helps muggles understand basics.

What Stereophile wrote about Paul's devices:
"with the P12 there was a major step forward in overall realism. With no change in volume setting, the sound was more dynamic."
Of course, if you have something worth $10k your subconsciousness tells you that is a good product worth the money.

He is also selling some amplifiers and loudspeakers. To prevent being accused of mobbing test one of his good product (he must have a good product for God's sake .

Amir, you said once that measurement told you that some KEF speakers were good but actually they sound not good. Maybe there is something to it? Maybe there is a factor you cannot measure with your fancy equipment..

You also said that in the video, that this Smith guy uses a few regulators in series which apparently is a good approach.
Why not put another one before them?

See this shiny golden darTZeel NHB-458 power amp., it's got 0.42% THD+N and costs $150k.
It's expensive. The only way to avoid your cruel tests is to get more expensive than you can afford.
If Paul's P12 costs $50k he'd be safe.

How interesting. A brand new account defending PS Audio. Geez.. I wonder....

 

[Ricardus]

I like him, he is a very nice guy and he helps muggles understand basics.

You have no idea if he is a nice guy. You don't live with him (I assume).

Paul's real personality came out in the response text that Amir posted. Essentialy DOXXing Amir's business and location. This is the real Paul. When people call out a narccissist's lies, they get angry and respond in bad ways. I am not a clinician but there is a diagnosed narcissist in my family and I've seen the behaviour for 2 decades.

 

[Doodski]

You have no idea if he is a nice guy. You don't live with him (I assume).

Paul's real personality came out in the response text that Amir posted. Essentialy DOXXing Amir's business and location. This is the real Paul. When people call out a narccissist's lies, they get angry and respond in bad ways. I am not a clinician but there is a diagnosed narcissist in my family and I've seen the behaviour for 2 decades.

I'm not sure if I have known a narcissist because they are so complex but I've done a fair amount of reading on the topic and they are placed in a group with psychopathic personalities and sociopathic personalities. Not a good place to be.

 

[TheBatsEar]

Strange up/down voting going on in the comments.

And just like that, the upvoting problem is gone.

 

[sam_adams]

One has to think about how bad the AC mains power coming into their house has to be before a device like this makes any real difference or even sense. Are we talking about post-apocalyptic, radioactive wasteland, pig-crap-based methane powered AC generation or the wife turning on the microwave to heat a cup of tea type variations in the AC mains voltage? Does anyone really think that a small one to two volt drop in the AC voltage level for a few cycles is going to impede your ability to hear the 'air between the notes' during your critical listening session of the latest Hi-Res release of Einstein On The Beach?

If anything, putting this device in between your equipment and the AC wall plug is just another point of failure. What type of disastrous result would occur if this device were to fail and dump DC into your amp's transformer? At least if the AC power fails, it just goes off. Sure, there might be an inductive spike in the line, but probably nothing that a well designed capacitor couldn't handle.

We have come to this point almost entirely on the claims that this device improves the sound of your audio equipment. The marketing is just drivel, but it appeals to the 'accumulators' in today's society. Had it been marketed without all the nonsense and more along the lines of "provides some assurance that the AC power to your expensive equipment is as good as possible", we'd have moved past this a long time ago. But then we would have missed out on @amirm mugging for the camera.

 

[KxDx]

The reddit people don't seem to be too fond of ASR:
https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/comments/tnfmhk
Strange up/down voting going on in the comments.

R/audiophile is a joke. Any time you post equipment you acquired you can't get 3 replies before it turns into a discussion about cables or some other unicorns.

I prefer going to budgetaudiophile so I can at least help people trying to learn or not get scammed. They even appreciate links to honest reviews from this site and Audioholics.

 

[Labjr]

They are probably better off not responding to critical reviews because their excuses make them look even worse. They obviously don't take it as constructive criticism as a company like Schiit does.

I sometimes see a PS Audio ad on Facebook with a cartoon about brick and mortar audio stores going out of business. However, it appears that PS Audio has no US dealers.