AES Paper Presentation on DAC Measurements (Video)

[Head_Unit]

"DACs that mute at 0 dBFS"

Once upon a time I started using the NAB test CD, which contained a 22.05 kHz 1 LSB tone. That prevented DACs from muting. @amirm does such muting affect the measurements you are doing? I couldn't figure it for certain from the digital measurements thread-it seems you're measuring with for instance a swept tone that is being notched out, therefore the DAC is not muted?

 

[Rmar]

As some of you know, I presented a paper at this years Audio Engineering Society on measuring over 450 DACs. All the tests were detailed in the paper together with motivations and learnings from the multi-year project. The paper is only available for a fee (link below). AES asked for a short presentation at the conference itself. In this video, I go through that presentation with more detail than I intended to cover at the conference. This way, you get a bit more flavor of what I had written in the paper.

Here is the link to the paper and where you can download it: https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=22278

It is free for members and costs $33 otherwise.

Congratulations on getting published, Amir! It's a testament to this site and yourself to be a significant source of reliable audio information and discourse; as well as accurate and verifiable audio performance measurements.

 

[Ismapics]

Hello tall: I just saw a video from a Channel called Forever Analog, comparing 2 DACs and saying how one sounded different from the other. That one was more musical

Why do so called Audiophiles who should be fans of science are become all of a sudden denier of facts. They fall into a narrative which forces a dogma of beliefs rather than concrete objective facts/evidence. Where the subjective is appreciated more, when we are dealing with electrical impulses that move through the air into your ears.

We all know, that since everyone’s ears and rooms are different it will sound different in every location. So the only way to level the playing field is to start with the best design that has the best possible measurements at a price we can afford. Why start looking at options with mediocre performance, when you can start with the best and discern from features and other factors. They don't seem to understand something so simple.

But brained washed individuals and reviewers with no measurement capability, end up just saying words. Big words like reverb, analytical, hones and drops, all together, popping, relaxed, laidback, drowned, digital sheen, punchy, and precise.Completely meaningless. I see them everyday, Darko, Audiophiliac, Z, the British guy and many others. Anyone can say those.

Thanks for letting me vent a little.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

Hello tall: I just saw a video from a Channel called Forever Analog, comparing 2 DACs and saying how one sounded different from the other. That one was more musical

Why do so called Audiophiles who should be fans of science are become all of a sudden denier of facts. They fall into a narrative which forces a dogma of beliefs rather than concrete objective facts/evidence. Where the subjective is appreciated more, when we are dealing with electrical impulses that move through the air into your ears.

We all know, that since everyone’s ears and rooms are different it will sound different in every location. So the only way to level the playing field is to start with the best design that has the best possible measurements at a price we can afford. Why start looking at options with mediocre performance, when you can start with the best and discern from features and other factors. They don't seem to understand something so simple.

But brained washed individuals and reviewers with no measurement capability, end up just saying words. Big words like reverb, analytical, hones and drops, all together, popping, relaxed, laidback, drowned, digital sheen, punchy, and precise.Completely meaningless. I see them everyday, Darko, Audiophiliac, Z, the British guy and many others. Anyone can say those.

Thanks for letting me vent a little.

Science is impersonal and reality can be cruel. Fantasy is much more accommodating.

Jim

 

[Rhamnetin]

Hello tall: I just saw a video from a Channel called Forever Analog, comparing 2 DACs and saying how one sounded different from the other. That one was more musical

Why do so called Audiophiles who should be fans of science are become all of a sudden denier of facts. They fall into a narrative which forces a dogma of beliefs rather than concrete objective facts/evidence. Where the subjective is appreciated more, when we are dealing with electrical impulses that move through the air into your ears.

We all know, that since everyone’s ears and rooms are different it will sound different in every location. So the only way to level the playing field is to start with the best design that has the best possible measurements at a price we can afford. Why start looking at options with mediocre performance, when you can start with the best and discern from features and other factors. They don't seem to understand something so simple.

But brained washed individuals and reviewers with no measurement capability, end up just saying words. Big words like reverb, analytical, hones and drops, all together, popping, relaxed, laidback, drowned, digital sheen, punchy, and precise.Completely meaningless. I see them everyday, Darko, Audiophiliac, Z, the British guy and many others. Anyone can say those.

Thanks for letting me vent a little.

It seems to me that audiophiles fall into at least one of these mindsets:

1. They have lots of money and want to buy the most expensive, coolest looking, most hyped gear from old American or European brands. This is just expensive fancy furniture in their homes that they can show off, but they still do want to believe this shiny furniture is "the best" and not technically outclassed by some cheap Chinese stuff or plain looking studio monitors.
2. They want to recreate the sound they grew up with: vinyl with tube amps
3. They enjoy the gear itself, rather than the music. They have made a hobby out of cycling through all kinds of different, popular, cool looking audio gear. Proper blind testing is usually an uncomfortable thought for these people as it makes them question everything and could bring upon the end of this "gear-fi" hobby.

At least that's what I've picked up after just a decade of attending shows and talking to such people, along with forums and Discord servers. Someone recently told me that the price of audio equipment is the single best indicator of their sound quality, and that, "There's no correlation between measurements and sound quality." Some of these people have truly questionable sanity. I believe this person falls into #3 above.

Data and objective performance seems to be catching on slowly though, thanks to research and publications like this paper on DACs. Audiophoolery will always continue to exist, but considering the quality and affordable products that SMSL, Topping, JDS Labs, Schiit, Gustard, Drop via partnerships, and others have been consistently putting out for years, we're in a pretty good place when it comes to consumer audio electronics.

 

[PlasticDoc]

It seems that you missed a point:
"4. Contrary to Real Audiophiles that most of the time just want to recreate the LIVE sound they grew up with."

By LIVE (sometimes also called unplugged) I meant the concert hall, or the cafe, or the oudtdoor performance of one or more performers that can be directly listened (without microphones, amplifiers, speakers, cables, etc.) by one or more persons that happens to like the experience of just music, voice, etc.

 

[Ismapics]

It seems to me that audiophiles fall into at least one of these mindsets:

1. They have lots of money and want to buy the most expensive, coolest looking, most hyped gear from old American or European brands. This is just expensive fancy furniture in their homes that they can show off, but they still do want to believe this shiny furniture is "the best" and not technically outclassed by some cheap Chinese stuff or plain looking studio monitors.
2. They want to recreate the sound they grew up with: vinyl with tube amps
3. They enjoy the gear itself, rather than the music. They have made a hobby out of cycling through all kinds of different, popular, cool looking audio gear. Proper blind testing is usually an uncomfortable thought for these people as it makes them question everything and could bring upon the end of this "gear-fi" hobby.

At least that's what I've picked up after just a decade of attending shows and talking to such people, along with forums and Discord servers. Someone recently told me that the price of audio equipment is the single best indicator of their sound quality, and that, "There's no correlation between measurements and sound quality." Some of these people have truly questionable sanity. I believe this person falls into #3 above.

Data and objective performance seems to be catching on slowly though, thanks to research and publications like this paper on DACs. Audiophoolery will always continue to exist, but considering the quality and affordable products that SMSL, Topping, JDS Labs, Schiit, Gustard, Drop via partnerships, and others have been consistently putting out for years, we're in a pretty good place when it comes to consumer audio electronics.

Agree totally, why would it seem that society, now questions facts more than ever. Maybe bc anyone with a smartphone and $100 to by a piece of gear can now create a whole opinion and sound factual. In any case (maybe everyone in this forum to some extent) I will continue to be an advocate sor science and facts over hype, and most of all enjoy the music while my ears work.

 

[OK1]

Just saw the manufacturer specs of a Universal Audio X 16D audio interface - Dante and AES inputs/outputs. Thunderbolt 3 inputs/outputs. This costs $3K minimum.

These are the specs of the audio monitor outputs. It gives me the strong impression that professional products have caught up with the consumer market. Wonder which budget consumer DACs are in the same league, on their DAC outputs?

I must add though, especially for consumer dongle DAC's, the measurements refer to the combination of the audio path through the DAC as well as the headphone output, which makes the specs of something like the Tempotec Sonata BHD specs below - pretty pretty impressive, for less than $50(sometimes below $40 on sale). Amazing, what is possible with not too much money. Note the THD+N for the BHD is @ 0dB, so can imagine that if this was measured at -1dB as the Universal Audio device, it would measure even better. The challenge with measurements is a lack of equivalence, wish one could measure the Frequency response of the BHD between 20hz and 20Khz, for a proper comparison.