Response to PS Audio on P12 PowerPlant Measurements (Video)

[Lécheq]

That's what I'm saying - that becomes personal

 

[AudioSceptic]

It's pretty clear the inbuilt THD analysis of the PS Audio P-12 powerplant is considerably better than you give it credit for. It is correctly displaying the notched-out residual under magnification, something completely unrelated to the number of pixels on the LCD. It's not an APX-555 and doesn't pretend to be. Take it for what it is.

The line regulation cannot be dismissed and it is trivial to demonstrate with any medium powered amplifier using a traditional linear (transformer/bridge/caps) that a lower supply voltage translates directly to a much lower output power. Also, line regulation serves to prolong the life of filter capacitors, incandescent dial/meter illumination and other components not sitting downstream from a regulator.

Most amplifiers of traditional design (the majority of amplifiers out there likely to use this product), have little to no regulation for their main high current supplies and not much more (other than a RC) for the front ends.

The simple fact of the matter is a low impedance, stable mains voltage supplying your gear is a good thing. PS Audio is supplying a product for sale that does that. That cannot be argued with and still retain credibility. You can choose to buy one or not, but this continual unwarranted attack on the man and the company is unbecoming.

Why not just let it go?

Some of that may be true but how much of this (from the PS Audio website) is? Do you believe that there's an audible improvement?

The DirectStream Power Plant 12 takes your incoming AC power and regenerate new sine-wave-perfect, regulated high current AC power. In the process of regeneration any problems on your power line such as low voltage, distorted waveforms, sagging power and noise are eliminated. The results are both audibly and visually stunning when powering either audio or video products. Further, the level of protection afforded connected equipment is extraordinary. Feel 100% confident that a P12 will provide pure and safe power under any condition. Don’t starve your music or risk damaging your equipment. A P12 gives you greatly improved performance and safety from just plugging into the wall socket and far better dynamics, bass and a much bigger, open soundstage than any passive power conditioner on the market.

 

[CedarX]

But would you allow your friend who makes 2000 dollars a month to save money and but a PS audio powerplant because he is lead to believe it will sonically improve his system? Deepen his soundstage and widen it? Make silky smooth highs? Whatever the jargon is.
Because that is what they are selling.

Fully agree! Does it bring some potential benefits on the electrical/power side? Maybe... probably yes... But claiming it improves your audio is the same as claiming your sandwich will taste better if you plug your toaster into the thing! Actually... a squirt of (real) snake oil on my sandwich may not be a bad thing...

 

[axbarker]

It isn't. It has been pointed out several times, the 'measured' 'impedance' is clearly in error. Do the math.

As a PhD in power systems - but more importantly armed with common sense - BS Audio have clearly been called out. Their "Chief Engineer" offered the most over simplistic explanation of basic electrical terms. Plain fact - no way can this product improve the "soundstage" or "musicality" of audio equipment. The equipment does not need such regulation - come on get real please.

 

[AudioSceptic]

As I see it, the point here is what amir says about service: it's all about his commitment with testing and evaluating equipment people send to him. Someone sent this unit and he is trying his best to fulfill that commitment, and this includes defending his measurements of course.

In addition to that, if one side gets personal and starts to play in a pseudo spy game spreading misinformation and not adhering to strictly technical reasoning, some conflict is inevitable, because the other part is forced to defend its position and reputation. It's sad but that's how it works, it's nature itself. Fortunately, this is not much of a big deal, we see much worse conflicts every day.

What I don't get is how it can be bad for the community, understanding the community as all human beings.

I take this meaning of "community" to mean "audiophiles who will happily spend thousands of dollars on equipment because they believe in magic, not science".

 

[Astoneroad]

Fully agree! Does it bring some potential benefits on the electrical/power side? Maybe... probably yes... But claiming it improves your audio is the same as claiming your sandwich will taste better if you plug your toaster into the thing! Actually... a squirt of (real) snake oil on my sandwich may not be a bad thing...

... he can market it as "Paul's Python Elixir"... guaranteed to slowly squeeze the life out of your audio budget. Perhaps if we just send Paul a weekly allowance of live mice to feed on... he'll stop feeding upon those in the "community"(????).

 

[xaviescacs]

I take this meaning of "community" to mean "audiophiles who will happily spend thousands of dollars on equipment because they believe in magic, not science".

I guess only he knows, but one can guess it's a quite narrow subset of whole humanity, probably not randomly picked, as if anyone couldn't enjoy music exactly the same.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

"The DirectStream Power Plant 12 takes your incoming AC power and regenerate new sine-wave-perfect, regulated high current AC power. In the process of regeneration any problems on your power line such as low voltage, distorted waveforms, sagging power and noise are eliminated. The results are both audibly and visually stunning when powering either audio or video products. Further, the level of protection afforded connected equipment is extraordinary. Feel 100% confident that a P12 will provide pure and safe power under any condition. Don’t starve your music or risk damaging your equipment. A P12 gives you greatly improved performance and safety from just plugging into the wall socket and far better dynamics, bass and a much bigger, open soundstage than any passive power conditioner on the market."


honestly, how can anyone read that ridiculous blurb and then say "hey, whatever. No harm no foul...Paul is a nice old fella...let him be." ??

 

[axbarker]

"The DirectStream Power Plant 12 takes your incoming AC power and regenerate new sine-wave-perfect, regulated high current AC power. In the process of regeneration any problems on your power line such as low voltage, distorted waveforms, sagging power and noise are eliminated. The results are both audibly and visually stunning when powering either audio or video products. Further, the level of protection afforded connected equipment is extraordinary. Feel 100% confident that a P12 will provide pure and safe power under any condition. Don’t starve your music or risk damaging your equipment. A P12 gives you greatly improved performance and safety from just plugging into the wall socket and far better dynamics, bass and a much bigger, open soundstage than any passive power conditioner on the market."


honestly, how can anyone read that ridiculous blurb and then say "hey, whatever. No harm no foul...Paul is a nice old fella...let him be." ??

<Miss representation and bordering on fraud.

 

[voodooless]

What Stereophile wrote about Paul's devices:
"with the P12 there was a major step forward in overall realism. With no change in volume setting, the sound was more dynamic."
Of course, if you have something worth $10k your subconsciousness tells you that is a good product worth the money.

Amir said about P12:

Listening Tests
I performed two sets of listening tests. One with headphones and one with speakers.

Headphone test chain was RME ADI-2 DAC driving Topping A90 Pre-amp using balanced connection. Headphone in use was the Dan Clark Stealth. I started to listen to A90 fed with raw mains and then switched to PS Audio P12. Immediate impression was a bit louder and dynamic. Switched back and now the A90 with raw power was that way. Switched back and forth half a dozen times and the two sounded the same. Everything I thought I heard with P12, I would also hear just as well with the raw AC.

Speaker listening chain was silent custom music server, to Matrix Sabre MQA DAC/streamer ($2,000), to Mark Levinson 532 reference (400 watts/ch - $20,000). Output drove my Revel Salon 2 speakers ($23,000). I started with Raw AC from the wall, feeding the ML 532 with a thin extension cord to really disadvantage it. The sound was superb with incredible dynamics and fidelity. Sometimes I forget how good my everyday system is. I then switched the power from ML 532 and ran a normal power cord to PS Audio P12. The P12 was driven using Pangea power cord. Immediate impression was lower fidelity. More compressed sound. Just less fidelity. I think I was biased by thinking that no way my giant amp could be driven by this little box. Of course I switched back to raw AC and heard the same sound as P12. Switched a couple more times and result was that there was no difference.

Net, net, there is no audible difference in these ad-hoc tests.

Now what?

 

[Lécheq]

I don't know, its word against word, get it to a court.
Amir, please test Pauls good product and say: I love Paul for what he's done with this product!
Those new loudspeakers Paul is bragging about, maybe.

 

[xaviescacs]

ts word against word

Word against repeatable measurements

 

[BDWoody]

Amir, please test Pauls good product and say: I love Paul for what he's done with this product!
Those new loudspeakers Paul is bragging about, maybe.

He typically tests items sent by members. Are you volunteering to buy them and send them in?

 

[voodooless]

I don't know, its word against word, get it to a court.

Looks like your honour has already takes sides.

A real judge would have thrown out the case due to lack of evidence.

 

[AudiOhm]

The thorn in PS Audio's side is starting to fester.

As soon as anyone defends their equipment by distraction/name calling etc.

they have already accepted defeat, they just don't know it...

Ohms

 

[Astoneroad]

<Miss representation and bordering on fraud.

Wanna buy a T-Shirt... only $2995.

 

[Ralph_Cramden]

I dunno. If people are dumb enough to buy into PS Audio's bullshit, let them. Perhaps @amirm should spend more time testing sensible products than this "high end" garbage, which most thinking people aren't going to pay any attention to anyhoo. JMHO.

 

[anmpr1]

Typical of those who have lost the argument, they resort to ad hominem.

The idea that ASR is 'hurtful' or 'harmful' to 'the community'? Yeah, if the community is comprised of Paul's nonsensical products, then it is true.

What is telling, is Paul's notion that the purpose of ASR is (or should be) the unofficial advertising arm for PS Audio. In a way, that can almost be, if not forgiven, at least understood inasmuch as Paul's 'community' (that is, the entire hi-fi scene) has becoming so drunk on the sycophantic blather coming from Stereophile, the Absolute Sound, Secrets of Hi-Fi, and all the rest, that whenever someone comes along and tells the truth, it's so unexpected and so shocking for them, that they just can't cope with it.

As far as the logical fallacy goes, I'm reminded of philosophy blogger Edward Feser, who wrote: There is no ad hominem fallacy in judging someone to be dishonest, or feckless, or incompetent, or simply a scumbag, and then going on to say so. Those may just be the facts, and there is nothing necessarily wrong with calling attention to such facts.

With that in mind, I think most thinking folks can certainly judge Paul and his device, and then contrast them with what Amir is doing, coming to their own conclusions about who represents what. On the other hand, there are a lot of people who will simply double-down in denial, when presented with truth. It's just the way of human nature, it seems.

 

[AudiOhm]

I think Amir is doing just fine with his rebuttals, I love seeing a sales man squirm...

Ohms

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I dunno. If people are dumb enough to buy into PS Audio's bullshit, let them. Perhaps @amirm should spend more time testing sensible products than this "high end" garbage, which most thinking people aren't going to pay any attention to anyhoo. JMHO.

sure, except that a significant part of the audiophile hobby is founded upon people buying into this bullshit. Have you spent any time on most audiophile forums? It's hardly just a small subset of non-thinking people.