Response to PS Audio on P12 PowerPlant Measurements (Video)

[drplinker]

There are no excuses for false claims & specs, especially when caught . But isn't false claims all around us ? Startups, Unicorns, Auto MPG claims, Theranos....

Falsification is rampant especially in highend audio world. No doubt there are great expensive products, but for one such good product there are 10s of them making false claims, backed only by legions of golden ear reviewers and industry experts.

PS Audio is mixed bag of good, mediocre and bad products. I feel (my opinion) PS Audio is in line with the industry and it's customer segment (who find night & day differences in USB cables & power cords). It is likely that only a small percent of P12 owners care for actual numbers and vast majority go for the unfound ether in such high end products.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Yes, I noticed that too. Also, that Paul continually took over the conversation and steered it into what he wanted to say. He took the measurements and then gave his opinion on what the measurements meant. Of course, the engineer let Paul misrepresent some info. I think as the owner and starter of the company, Paul has of course very strong views on audio and that he knows from years of listening to crappy systems what sounds good and what doesn't and the big kicker, WHY it sounds that way. That poor engineer looked like he was thinking "Dear God, please don't let any of my fellow engineers across America see this video. I'm so ashamed." I think he wanted to crawl under the table and let Paul do the whole thing. I too was shocked at the two multi meters and the front panel display on the power plant. I was shocked! Appalled! I was stunned at how this was going to show the audience how good the power plant is, using the inexpensive little screen on the power plant.

But, once you go into selling extreme high dollar speaker wire and power cords, you really leave engineering in the dust and get into snake oil. Does PS Audio stand for Paul's Snake oil Audio? I'm still shocked. Amir responded passionately but with more professionalism than anyone from PS Audio.
The problem is I just can't stand subjectivists during an objectivist discussion. Voodoo science is the result. Or magic!

 

[Robbo99999]

@amirm , in your last slide you show as part of your conclusion, I can't believe Paul is saying those things, he surely can't actually believe them, to me it just seems like manipulative smoke & mirror tactics to keep followers & buyers of his gear from seeing reality & losing faith in their products & brand. Anyway, it's clear to see that you're genuine in your approach to audio & what you're trying to do in the community, so that comes over, plus anyway the science doesn't lie!

I'm not interested in any feuds between sites that may or may not have come about as a result of the reviews here, it's just good to be able to see some objective measurements and spend money on the good stuff that makes a difference (in the right direction!). I don't think there will be that many "exchanges" like this (that we've seen surrounding this product) in the future as I think the industry is in process of change for the better.

 

[MattHooper]

whooops wrong thread

 

[joeren]

It's pretty clear the inbuilt THD analysis of the PS Audio P-12 powerplant is considerably better than you give it credit for. It is correctly displaying the notched-out residual under magnification, something completely unrelated to the number of pixels on the LCD. It's not an APX-555 and doesn't pretend to be. Take it for what it is.

The line regulation cannot be dismissed and it is trivial to demonstrate with any medium powered amplifier using a traditional linear (transformer/bridge/caps) that a lower supply voltage translates directly to a much lower output power. Also, line regulation serves to prolong the life of filter capacitors, incandescent dial/meter illumination and other components not sitting downstream from a regulator.

Most amplifiers of traditional design (the majority of amplifiers out there likely to use this product), have little to no regulation for their main high current supplies and not much more (other than a RC) for the front ends.

The simple fact of the matter is a low impedance, stable mains voltage supplying your gear is a good thing. PS Audio is supplying a product for sale that does that. That cannot be argued with and still retain credibility. You can choose to buy one or not, but this continual unwarranted attack on the man and the company is unbecoming.

Why not just let it go?

I disagree with your assessment/opinion of the P-12. The fact of the matter is, you have shown no empirical data to back up your statements. True, the majority of linear power supplies‘ DC output are unregulated, but so what. The few volts difference won’t make a bit of difference under typical listening conditions. Correctly designed main DC electrolytic capacitors are always decoupled with additional high frequency film capacitors, so there’s that. The P-12 is a solution looking for a problem.

 

[pkane]

One thing that's perfectly clear from the frequency analysis done by @amirm : the P12 regenerator does not regenerate AC. I don't know how PS Audio and Paul can claim "perfect regeneration" when the output spectrum looks exactly like that of the input, with just a somewhat reduced amplitude?

Like Amir, I have a P300 regenerator. It is clear that P300 really does regenerate AC. And not just from the spectrum that looks completely different from the raw AC, but also from the fact that you can change the output frequency to a wide range of values while the input stays at 60Hz -- there's no way to do that without full regeneration.

Amir's P300 measurements. Raw AC, looks nearly identical to that in P12 measurements:

And a P300 regenerated AC looks nothing like the raw AC:

Seems like P12 is just not a very well designed product with marketing far exceeding its real capabilities.

 

[sweetsounds]

One thing that's perfectly clear from the frequency analysis done by @amirm : the P12 regenerator does not regenerate AC. I don't know how PS Audio and Paul can claim "perfect regeneration" when the output spectrum looks exactly like that of the input, with just a somewhat reduced amplitude?

Like Amir, I have a P300 regenerator. It is clear that P300 really does regenerate AC. And not just from the spectrum that looks completely different from the raw AC, but also from the fact that you can change the output frequency to a wide range of values while the input stays at 60Hz -- there's no way to do that without full regeneration.

Amir's P300 measurements. Raw AC, looks nearly identical to that in P12 measurements:
View attachment 195198

And a P300 regenerated AC looks nothing like the raw AC:
View attachment 195197

Seems like P12 is just not a very well designed product with marketing far exceeding its real capabilities.

 

[amirm]

Oh fuck... I didn't get it at first but when i did...

Oh man oh man oh man....

OK, if there is a bad meaning to that picture, I need to delete it. So let's not speak in code folks. I want to make sure our conduct is extremely professional in this manner.

 

[Anthony101]

I own a pair of Klipsch 600m speakers, and they didn't measure well when Amir reviewed them here. So I have decided to take some measurements with my battery load tester. I will hook it up to the speaker, then hit the load switch for 5 to 10 seconds and see how it does with a 12v load.

 

[AdamG]

Thread notice: Bad taste/off color post removed and ALL posts that were related went with it. Lets try to behave please and remain civil and respectful. Thank you for your assistance and understanding.

 

[Gary_G]

I used to watch Paul's videos. From the day I found ASR. I Stopped watching Paul's.

It would be better if Paul showed P12 with audioprecision measurements.

Yep, I too watched and read alot of Paul's "stuff." I have grown up.

 

[AudiOhm]

Please do not tar and feather me...

20 years ago or so, I purchased some speaker cables from a local store in London.

They advertised 50% off. I paid $600.. CDN taxes in for PS Audio Statement II speaker cables...

Still use them, would like to know how they measure up...

Ohms

 

[DonR]

Please do not tar and feather me...

20 years ago or so, I purchased some speaker cables from a local store in London.

They advertised 50% off. I paid $600.. CDN taxes in for PS Audio Statement II speaker cables...

Still use them, would like to know how they measure up...

Ohms

Most of us have been there. We all have our ghosts from the past.

 

[AudiOhm]

Most of us have been there. We all have our ghosts from the past.

A friend of mine, a millwright, asked what I was doing with welding cables, I had just unpacked them and they were laying on the floor...

Ohms

 

[norcalscott]

One thing that's perfectly clear from the frequency analysis done by @amirm : the P12 regenerator does not regenerate AC. I don't know how PS Audio and Paul can claim "perfect regeneration" when the output spectrum looks exactly like that of the input, with just a somewhat reduced amplitude?

This is the bit that bothered me the most, and I admit I didn't fully grasp this until watching Amir's video - if they are to have any credibility at all at PS Audio they need to address this because it seems as snakeoily as just about anything considering the cost of this device.

I sort of feel for the chief engineer guy who I am sure was told what not to say. In my many years managing technical products I myself have been guilty of telling engineers "don't say this or that" during demos on trade show floors (and mea culpa I feel guilty about some of it) but to put someone on video like this for his peers to see is downright mean.

 

[Ricardus]

I sort of feel for the chief engineer guy who I am sure was told what not to say. In my many years managing technical products I myself have been guilty of telling engineers "don't say this or that" during demos on trade show floors (and mea culpa I feel guilty about some of it) but to put someone on video like this for his peers to see is downright mean.

Paul's ego is all that matters.

 

[DonR]

A friend of mine, a millwright, asked what I was doing with welding cables, I had just unpacked them and they were laying on the floor...

Ohms

haha that's funny because I actually DO use welding (12/4 SOOW) cables for my speaker cables. The nice thing is they are very flexible for their size and I got them super cheap.

 

[kencreten]

Holy swear words, Batman. I can't prove it directly, but I believe that guy, that CEO, Dude, is a liar. He's a liar that steals money. Or, he has to be the biggest true believer (in his gear) that has ever been produced in audiophoolery. Maybe we should check his ontological assumptions and see if he believes in a young, and flat, Earth.

 

[kencreten]

haha that's funny because I actually DO use welding (12/4 SOOW) cables for my speaker cables. The nice thing is they are very flexible for their size and I got them super cheap.

I've used Audioquest cables before, from a dumpster. I can attest that they worked!

 

[kencreten]

It's pretty clear the inbuilt THD analysis of the PS Audio P-12 powerplant is considerably better than you give it credit for. It is correctly displaying the notched-out residual under magnification, something completely unrelated to the number of pixels on the LCD. It's not an APX-555 and doesn't pretend to be. Take it for what it is.

The line regulation cannot be dismissed and it is trivial to demonstrate with any medium powered amplifier using a traditional linear (transformer/bridge/caps) that a lower supply voltage translates directly to a much lower output power. Also, line regulation serves to prolong the life of filter capacitors, incandescent dial/meter illumination and other components not sitting downstream from a regulator.

Most amplifiers of traditional design (the majority of amplifiers out there likely to use this product), have little to no regulation for their main high current supplies and not much more (other than a RC) for the front ends.

The simple fact of the matter is a low impedance, stable mains voltage supplying your gear is a good thing. PS Audio is supplying a product for sale that does that. That cannot be argued with and still retain credibility. You can choose to buy one or not, but this continual unwarranted attack on the man and the company is unbecoming.

Why not just let it go?

Because they keep attacking him, and the truth. If I were Amir, until they admit that their $7000 nearly useless product is what it actually is, I'd clamp down like a pit bull, and not let go. We should be protecting people from companies like this, who prey on the ignorant, not encouraging them.