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NORMS AND STANDARDS FOR DISCOURSE ON ASR

Xulonn

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For a more in-depth discussion of «gold standard» in academic research, please see Dr. Jurgen A H R Claassen’s essay:

Most conversations work best when people agree on definitions and terminology. However, this is an English-language forum, with participants from different countries with different languages, so sometimes there are translation issues. However, English-language dictionary definitions should be assumed as the standard unless the use of alternative terminology is agreed upon before proceeding. That was not done here and added unnecessary complexity and confusion to the conversation.

Rejecting the dictionary definition of a phrase and attempting to create controversy by mentioning a debate about its meaning in some obscure corner of academia is not useful in this discussion of audio science. Such localized controversy might be of academic interest to you, but I am sure that most here, like me, could care less about it, and find it irrelevant to the audio aspects of this thread.
 

March Audio

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And sorry to all who like short posts. I am not a big fan of twitter. I am not a fan either of posts that are short just to shout repeatedly “four legs good, two legs bad”, as if science were a choir session. It takes longer and more space to develop a minority, diverging argument..
.…”

The issue isn't about short posts, it's about concise and effective communication.

You do your purpose a disservice with these excessively long posts because most people simply won't read them, or skim them at best.

I for one simply don't have time to wade through the text trying to find the pertinent points.
 

Wombat

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You need to read this:
https://www.philosophybasics.com/movements_rationalism.html

If science just gets on with new discoveries, how does it make sense of what it finds? It's a multidimensional world, and a scientific experiment in itself cannot prove that it is dealing with all relevant dimensions of the 'space'. The philosophy/intellectual/rational part is crucial in understanding its limits. Experiments that examine existing speakers, for example, cannot on their own make the leap of understanding that says that perfectly uniform dispersion at all frequencies would be even better than a smooth trailing off. The person who makes that purely intellectual/philosophical/rational leap of understanding can then build a brand new speaker to test.

Too many people here think that 'data' alone is science, but data is dumb (in the UK sense of the word) in that it has no power of speech of its own. It is only useful when accompanied by a bit of philosophical reasoning.

Mmmmm. Which definition to use? Definitions

When the philosophers can concur, then maybe it will be more clear to the rest of us.
 
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PierreV

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The main point of my article is to open one’s eyes for good and bad science.

A modest goal if there is one... o_O

The abstruse style doesn't really help your secondary point, which seems to be simply expressing an opinion about what should be tested and how it should be tested. What about dropping the 19th-century pompous academic paper format and tone for a more modern one? Maybe start your article with a short abstract? Even if one essentially agrees with your opinion from an 'academic' (as opposed to a practical) point of view, the torrent of unrelated quotes, references, and boastful citations is somewhat hard to swallow...

Don't worry, we already know you can build a complex scaffold of sententious prose segments about virtually anything and, in some way, respect that. You don't have to prove your rhetorical skills anymore. Feel free to relax a bit and express your opinions directly.
 

Cosmik

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No. I used the term generically as people do in conversation. For @svart-hvitt to run with that word is beyond pedantic. I have explained the reason for not doing DAC listening tests countless times. It is #1 in the FAQ for measurements, linked to from the home page: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rstanding-audio-measurements.2351/#post-65101

View attachment 30358

If he believes DACs should be double blind tested, he should take the initiative to conduct them, together with resources to run the tests and publish them. Until then, I appreciate not hearing yet again "why do you measure." I do because hardly anyone in the industry does. Many of you can't do these measurements but can conduct blind tests. So if it is important to you, go and do it. You don't need a $30,000 instrument.

If all of this is cover by him to complain for the sake of complaining (which is what it reads to me), then stop. None of this is constructive and is wasting the forum resources.
Is it just me, or isn't the real reason to avoid listening tests that, in practice, they would be a joke - and we all know it?

Everyone knows what would happen: the results would be random. The true differences between DACs are so tiny that hundreds of other uncontrolled variables would swamp the differences - not least the variability of human hearing from one moment to the next.

And this is where philosophy comes in. The philosopher knows that the tests are not "controlled" just because we want them to be. The variables in play cannot be quantified, and no one knows whether even a thousand tests would be sufficient to separate the audibility of difference from the noise. The statistical formulae assume that the results would be the same whether there was a pneumatic drill operating in the test environment or not - it would be randomly aligned with the sequence of DACs after all. A real test may not feature a pneumatic drill, but it might feature distant traffic or aircon, or rain, or buzzing flies, or the after-effects of loud noises as the participants drive to the venue. In terms of the difference between the DACs these may as well be pneumatic drills, but there can be no control of them in any practical test put together by amateurs in their own homes - or even by professionals in any environment other than Microsoft's quietest room in the world.

Would you bet a substantial sum of money on any listening test of your devising coming up with the correct result in the case of two DACs of -106dB and -114dB? You may as well toss a coin.
 
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amirm

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Is it just me, or isn't the real reason to avoid listening tests that, in practice, they would be a joke - and we all know it?
I wouldn't avoid it for that reason. The results would be useful either way.

I have passed very difficult test like generational loss in ADC/DACs despite losing so much of my high frequency sensitivity. A younger version of me may have a chance at getting positive results in some cases.

Would you bet a substantial sum of money on any listening test of your devising coming up with the correct result in the case of two DACs of -106dB and -114dB? You may as well toss a coin.
We would obviate the need for a bet by having the results of such tests. :)
 
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svart-hvitt

svart-hvitt

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UNCOMFORTABLE KNOWLEDGE IN MONOTHEISTIC SOCIETIES IN SEARCH FOR UNIVERSAL TRUTHS

The title may seem odd but the interested reader will learn why I used those words and terms.

To the more action-seeking reader, who loves twitter-style - but hates Trump for it, I promise to open his eyes for a battle going on, a battle for hegemony, no less!

So fasten the seat belts for a very slow, but uncomfortable ride. Hopefully, the reading will be painful, as we know that cognitive dissonance triggers reactions in the brain that remind us of real pain :)

Ignorance is bliss! Without ignorance, storytelling would be hard. Something needs to be left out to tell a catchy story.

From Steve Raynor (2012), “Uncomfortable knowledge: the social construction of ignorance in science and environmental policy discourses” in Economy and Society:

“Sense-making is possible only through processes of exclusion. Storytelling is possible only because of the mass of detail that we leave out. Knowledge is possible only through the systematic ‘social construction of ignorance’ (Ravetz, 1986; Rayner, 1986), a phrase which draws on Berger and Luckmann’s 1966 classic The social construction of reality, and which aims to highlight the ways that ignorance is a socially produced and maintained phenomenon, and the ways that knowing and not knowing are interdependent.” ‘Uncomfortable knowledge is “that knowledge which is in tension or outright contradiction with those versions [and] must be expunged””.

From Bent Flyvbjerg (2013), “How planners deal with uncomfortable knowledge: The dubious ethics of the American Planning Association” in Cities:

“In organizational theory, uncomfortable knowledge is knowledge that is disagreeable or intolerable to an organization. Rayner (2011: 5-7) identifies four strategies in increasing order of sophistication for how organizations typically deal with uncomfortable knowledge:

1. Denial represents a refusal to acknowledge or engage with information.
2. Dismissal acknowledges that information exists, and may involve some minimal
engagement up to the point of rejecting it as faulty or irrelevant.
3. Diversion involves the creation of an activity that distracts attention away from an
uncomfortable issue.
4. Displacement occurs when an organization engages with an issue, but substitutes
management of a representation of a problem for management of the problem itself”.

Another synthetization of Rayner (2012), by Andrea Saltelli:

“Denial: “There isn’t a problem”
Dismissal: “It’s a minor problem”
Diversion: “Yes I am working on it” (In fact I am working on something that is only
apparently related to the problem)
Displacement: “Yes and the model we have developed tells us that real progress is
being achieved” (The focus in now the model not the problem)”.

So at the one hand people need ignorance to be told a story that catches, but sometimes at the expense of suppressing knowledge.

Here’s an example of denial, possibly dismissal, after I introduced a critique of @amirm ’s use of “gold standard” to promote a certain research program.

@Xulonn wrote:

“Rejecting the dictionary definition of a phrase and attempting to create controversy by mentioning a debate about its meaning in some obscure corner of academia is not useful in this discussion of audio science. Such localized controversy might be of academic interest to you, but I am sure that most here, like me, could care less about it, and find it irrelevant to the audio aspects of this thread”.

Key words are “obscure”, “localized controversy”, “academic interest”, “irrelevant”.

After my initital critique of “gold standard” on ASR (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-for-discourse-on-asr.8212/page-4#post-205468) I referred to a short essay on the origin and usage of the term (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-for-discourse-on-asr.8212/page-4#post-205601).

A longer treatise on the subject is Jones and Podolosky (2015), “The history and fate of the gold standard” in Lancet (https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736(15)60742-5).

Interestingly, the Lancet article doesn’t only deal with the term “gold standard” in science - a discussion that @Xulonn found “obscure”, “localized”, “academic” and “irrelevant” - it also deals with a research program that resembles what @amirm described as a gold standard in audio. The research program under scrutiny in the Lancet article, is so called RCTs, Randomized Controlled Trials. It’s quite an interesting read. Recommended!

On CRTs, Wikipedia wrote: “A well-blinded RCT is often considered the gold standard for clinical trials” (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomized_controlled_trial).

Sounds familiar? Remember, @amirm wrote:
“Sound evaluation by ear is the gold standard in audio science as long as it is controlled. You know, a proper blind AB comparison with levels matched”.

Let’s look at some quotes from the Lancet article:

“It was, ironically, in this setting—of the final abandonment of the financial gold standard in the USA—that the phrase began to appear in The Lancet and NEJM as something valuable, not merely as a standard of exchange but as the definitive exemplar of quality and reliability. A 1975 Lancet review of new diagnostic criteria described how they set the “gold standard”, providing a new “esperanto of liver disease””.

In other words, it was first after the original gold standard died that the gold standard as a term entered science. Does everybody see the irony, how the need to tell a powerful story comes at the expense of knowing the full history? There cannot be a gold standard, can it, if it goes away at will to be replaced by a newer standard. Something reeks of cult making here, where one uses rhetorical tricks to win a scientific debate, right?

To cast light on the somewhat religious message in the usage of “gold standard” in science (I have bolded and underlined certain passages from the Lancet article):

“But many of its uses in relation to RCTs were critiques, reflecting a legacy of the controversies that had long ensnared those who would claim the epistemic hegemony of RCTs. The debates about RCTs, and about the notion of a medical “gold standard” more generally, often took on religious overtones. Angry about cardiologists’ demands that coronary artery bypass grafting be subjected to RCTs, Lawrence Bonchek encouraged surgeons in 1979 to “resist the almost religious fervor of those who would sanctify randomized studies as the only means of learning the truth”. Writing in 1992, P Finbarr Duggan complained that the phrase “gold standard” itself “smacks of dogma” and should be abandoned”.

Let’s see what happened when I used a smiliar language in posts on ASR:

@simbloke wrote: “...@svart-hvitt your continued use of the words 'cult' and 'gospel' does nothing to advance your argument and is actually quite insulting” (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-and-smooth-off-axis.8090/page-15#post-200957)

@Xulonn wrote: “Your snide remark about ASR regulars and "gospel" is a bit weird - and that was what prompted me to respond. Perhaps there is a language barrier issue...” (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-and-smooth-off-axis.8090/page-13#post-200608).

It seems like journals of medicine have thicker skinned readers than ASR.

Let me quote more from The Lancet:

“Allegiance to a single approach provides a focus around which communities can organise and rally. But critics have pointed to the dangers of such medical monotheism. As pioneering cardiac surgeon René Favaloro wrote in 1998, reflecting on three decades of debate about bypass grafting, “Randomized trials have developed such high scientific stature and acceptance that they are accorded an almost religious sanctification...If relied on exclusively they may be dangerous””.

And the article concludes (my bolding and underlining):

“The past several years have seen increasing calls for an ecumenical approach to clinical research, with more flexible standards for what counts as acceptable study designs. Physicians have developed new methods to extract robust analyses from patient registries and from the ever-growing databases provided by electronic medical records. Will this erode the status of RCTs as a gold standard? The rise of personalised medicine, meanwhile, might make it more difficult to defend gold standards in diagnostic and therapeutic practice. Personalised medicine refocuses clinical attention away from the “typical” patients analysed by RCTs and onto the idiosyncrasies, genetic or otherwise, of individual patients. Has the phrase outlived its usefulness in medicine? It is too soon to tell. Yet even as some physicians turn away from their commitment to medical gold standards, some politicians, newly wary about global financial turbulence, talk of restoring the financial gold standard. Gold standards, whether actual or figurative, represent structures of exchange and aspirations toward stability, despite developments that threaten both”.

I hope readers had a déjà vu all over again experience when reading this. Can ASR also be viewed as an attempt to establish an “epistemic hegemony”, to push the belief of “randomized studies as the only means of learning the truth”? Have we, on the other hand, seen evidence on ASR for wishes to implement an “ecumenical approach to (...) research”, calls for “more flexible standards for what counts as acceptable study designs”? I guess no, right?

What about attempts to review “personalised [audio reproduction]”, to draw the attention “away from the ‘typical’ [consumer]” and into “idiosyncrasies...of individual [consumers]”?

Isn’t it obvious that the Harman method reminds one of RCTs, where the individual is replaced by an average, as if a randomized patient? Is it coincidence that Harman is dogmatically against room correction (above transition area/Schroeder), for isn’t room correction an attempt to “[refocus] attention away from the ‘typical’ patients analysed by RCTs and onto the idiosyncrasies, genetic or owherwise, of individual patients”?

And have in mind that Harman’s only study of room correction software a decade ago concluded that some room correction software had benefits. The strongest Harman voice on room correction since then, is @Floyd Toole , who wrote an article in JAES recently (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...keting-story-theory-without-measurement.7127/) where he called such software “an enticing marketing story”, despite the fact that his conclusion did not rest on the equivalent of CRTs, the gold standard, which is blind testing in audio research. Is this an example of selective use of “the gold” standard?

Have in mind too, that a recent debate on ASR was about the Harman method in headphones research. Even if there is good reason to use an individual’s unique head related transfer function (HRTF), Harman insists on averaging HRTFs for a randomized customer. There was, again, little support for a debate that “refocuses clinical attention away from the “typical” patients analysed by RCTs and onto the idiosyncrasies, genetic or otherwise, of individual patients”.

When one raises epistemic questions on ASR, readers react with denial, dismissal and diversion. As predicted by Rayner (2012). The uncomfortable knowledge is the fact that on ASR, as in other research fields, there is a fight to preserve a certain “epistemic hegemony”. And this hegemony is sometimes called “the gold standard of audio science”. Has ASR anything to learn from the debate on gold standard in other fields? Is Lancet too “obscure”, a place for “localized controversy”, “irrelevant”?

What happened when @amirm read my question of gold standard? Take a look at this answer:

“No. I used the term generically as people do in conversation. For @svart-hvitt to run with that word is beyond pedantic”.
Source: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-for-discourse-on-asr.8212/page-4#post-205602

Full dismissal, right? As predicted by Rayner (2012).

ASR has a promising start. This post is written in good spirit. However, why not learn about epistemology from other fields to avoid making the same mistakes over again? How come the need to form ASR in the “monotheistic traditions”, “...with a commitment to universal truths, unitary paradigms, and a “single-minded approach to illness and care””?

- - - - - - -

REFERENCE OF SPECIAL IMPORTANCE: https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736(15)60742-5
 
Last edited:

pkane

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“No. I used the term generically as people do in conversation. For @svart-hvitt to run with that word is beyond pedantic”.
Source: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-for-discourse-on-asr.8212/page-4#post-205602

Full dismissal, right? As predicted by Rayner (2012).

Maybe English is hard to understand, but when someone says that he used the term as generic, as is normally used in conversational English, it is simply poor form to keep attacking him on other meanings of the term that you personally find more unacceptable.
 
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svart-hvitt

svart-hvitt

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Maybe English is hard to understand, but when someone says that he used the term as generic, as is normally used in conversational English, it is simply poor form to keep attacking him on other meanings of the term that you personally find more unacceptable.

Here’s another example of the use of the term gold standard:

«As some of you know, the gold standard in objective audio measurements for speakers is the work Dr. Toole/Olive have done at NRC and Harman».
Source: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-i-get-into-speaker-testing-measurement.7904/

To me, it seems like @amirm uses the word «gold standard» in a way that resembles what’s discussed in Lancet.

If @amirm really thinks the Harman method is not the gold standard after all, he should say so.
 

pkane

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Here’s another example of the use of the term gold standard:

«As some of you know, the gold standard in objective audio measurements for speakers is the work Dr. Toole/Olive have done at NRC and Harman».
Source: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-i-get-into-speaker-testing-measurement.7904/

To me, it seems like @amirm uses the word «gold standard» in a way that resembles what’s discussed in Lancet.

If @amirm really thinks the Harman method is not the gold standard after all, he should say so.

I guess we are speaking a different language. If you're not familiar with the colloquial use of English words, perhaps you shouldn't be posting so much on their meaning.
 

watchnerd

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I wouldn't avoid it for that reason. The results would be useful either way.

I have passed very difficult test like generational loss in ADC/DACs despite losing so much of my high frequency sensitivity. A younger version of me may have a chance at getting positive results in some cases.


We would obviate the need for a bet by having the results of such tests. :)

@amirm you should stop spending time on this silliness and turn to the Hard problem of helping the rest of us diagnose what we seem to be hearing with my SUT, but can't yet effectively measure:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tening-comparison-test-dsp-phono-vs-sut.8213/

:p;):)
 

Blumlein 88

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UNCOMFORTABLE KNOWLEDGE IN MONOTHEISTIC SOCIETIES IN SEARCH FOR UNIVERSAL TRUTHS

The title may seem odd but the interested reader will learn why I used those words and terms.

To the more action-seeking reader, who loves twitter-style - but hates Trump for it, I promise to open his eyes for a battle going on, a battle for hegemony, no less!

So fasten the seat belts for a very slow, but uncomfortable ride. Hopefully, the reading will be painful, as we know that cognitive dissonance triggers reactions in the brain that remind us of real pain :)

Ignorance is bliss! Without ignorance, storytelling would be hard. Something needs to be left out to tell a catchy story.

From Steve Raynor (2012), “Uncomfortable knowledge: the social construction of ignorance in science and environmental policy discourses” in Economy and Society:

“Sense-making is possible only through processes of exclusion. Storytelling is possible only because of the mass of detail that we leave out. Knowledge is possible only through the systematic ‘social construction of ignorance’ (Ravetz, 1986; Rayner, 1986), a phrase which draws on Berger and Luckmann’s 1966 classic The social construction of reality, and which aims to highlight the ways that ignorance is a socially produced and maintained phenomenon, and the ways that knowing and not knowing are interdependent.” ‘Uncomfortable knowledge is “that knowledge which is in tension or outright contradiction with those versions [and] must be expunged””.

From Bent Flyvbjerg (2013), “How planners deal with uncomfortable knowledge: The dubious ethics of the American Planning Association” in Cities:

“In organizational theory, uncomfortable knowledge is knowledge that is disagreeable or intolerable to an organization. Rayner (2011: 5-7) identifies four strategies in increasing order of sophistication for how organizations typically deal with uncomfortable knowledge:

1. Denial represents a refusal to acknowledge or engage with information.
2. Dismissal acknowledges that information exists, and may involve some minimal
engagement up to the point of rejecting it as faulty or irrelevant.
3. Diversion involves the creation of an activity that distracts attention away from an
uncomfortable issue.
4. Displacement occurs when an organization engages with an issue, but substitutes
management of a representation of a problem for management of the problem itself”.

Another synthetization of Rayner (2012), by Andrea Saltelli:

“Denial: “There isn’t a problem”
Dismissal: “It’s a minor problem”
Diversion: “Yes I am working on it” (In fact I am working on something that is only
apparently related to the problem)
Displacement: “Yes and the model we have developed tells us that real progress is
being achieved” (The focus in now the model not the problem)”.

So at the one hand people need ignorance to be told a story that catches, but sometimes at the expense of suppressing knowledge.

Here’s an example of denial, possibly dismissal, after I introduced a critique of @amirm ’s use of “gold standard” to promote a certain research program.

@Xulonn wrote:

“Rejecting the dictionary definition of a phrase and attempting to create controversy by mentioning a debate about its meaning in some obscure corner of academia is not useful in this discussion of audio science. Such localized controversy might be of academic interest to you, but I am sure that most here, like me, could care less about it, and find it irrelevant to the audio aspects of this thread”.

Key words are “obscure”, “localized controversy”, “academic interest”, “irrelevant”.

After my initital critique of “gold standard” on ASR (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-for-discourse-on-asr.8212/page-4#post-205468) I referred to a short essay on the origin and usage of the term (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-for-discourse-on-asr.8212/page-4#post-205601).

A longer treatise on the subject is Jones and Podolosky (2015), “The history and fate of the gold standard” in Lancet (https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736(15)60742-5).

Interestingly, the Lancet article doesn’t only deal with the term “gold standard” in science - a discussion that @Xulonn found “obscure”, “localized”, “academic” and “irrelevant” - it also deals with a research program that resembles what @amirm described as a gold standard in audio. The research program under scrutiny in the Lancet article, is so called RCTs, Randomized Controlled Trials. It’s quite an interesting read. Recommended!

On CRTs, Wikipedia wrote: “A well-blinded RCT is often considered the gold standard for clinical trials” (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomized_controlled_trial).

Sounds familiar? Remember, @amirm wrote:
“Sound evaluation by ear is the gold standard in audio science as long as it is controlled. You know, a proper blind AB comparison with levels matched”.

Let’s look at some quotes from the Lancet article:

“It was, ironically, in this setting—of the final abandonment of the financial gold standard in the USA—that the phrase began to appear in The Lancet and NEJM as something valuable, not merely as a standard of exchange but as the definitive exemplar of quality and reliability. A 1975 Lancet review of new diagnostic criteria described how they set the “gold standard”, providing a new “esperanto of liver disease””.

In other words, it was first after the original gold standard died that the gold standard as a term entered science. Does everybody see the irony, how the need to tell a powerful story comes at the expense of knowing the full history? There cannot be a gold standard, can it, if it goes away at will to be replaced by a newer standard. Something reeks of cult making here, where one uses rhetorical tricks to win a scientific debate, right?

To cast light on the somewhat religious message in the usage of “gold standard” in science (I have bolded and underlined certain passages from the Lancet article):

“But many of its uses in relation to RCTs were critiques, reflecting a legacy of the controversies that had long ensnared those who would claim the epistemic hegemony of RCTs. The debates about RCTs, and about the notion of a medical “gold standard” more generally, often took on religious overtones. Angry about cardiologists’ demands that coronary artery bypass grafting be subjected to RCTs, Lawrence Bonchek encouraged surgeons in 1979 to “resist the almost religious fervor of those who would sanctify randomized studies as the only means of learning the truth”. Writing in 1992, P Finbarr Duggan complained that the phrase “gold standard” itself “smacks of dogma” and should be abandoned”.

Let’s see what happened when I used a smiliar language in posts on ASR:

@simbloke wrote: “...@svart-hvitt your continued use of the words 'cult' and 'gospel' does nothing to advance your argument and is actually quite insulting” (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-and-smooth-off-axis.8090/page-15#post-200957)

@Xulonn wrote: “Your snide remark about ASR regulars and "gospel" is a bit weird - and that was what prompted me to respond. Perhaps there is a language barrier issue...” (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-and-smooth-off-axis.8090/page-13#post-200608).

It seems like journals of medicine have thicker skinned readers than ASR.

Let me quote more from The Lancet:

“Allegiance to a single approach provides a focus around which communities can organise and rally. But critics have pointed to the dangers of such medical monotheism. As pioneering cardiac surgeon René Favaloro wrote in 1998, reflecting on three decades of debate about bypass grafting, “Randomized trials have developed such high scientific stature and acceptance that they are accorded an almost religious sanctification...If relied on exclusively they may be dangerous””.

And the article concludes (my bolding and underlining):

“The past several years have seen increasing calls for an ecumenical approach to clinical research, with more flexible standards for what counts as acceptable study designs. Physicians have developed new methods to extract robust analyses from patient registries and from the ever-growing databases provided by electronic medical records. Will this erode the status of RCTs as a gold standard? The rise of personalised medicine, meanwhile, might make it more difficult to defend gold standards in diagnostic and therapeutic practice. Personalised medicine refocuses clinical attention away from the “typical” patients analysed by RCTs and onto the idiosyncrasies, genetic or otherwise, of individual patients. Has the phrase outlived its usefulness in medicine? It is too soon to tell. Yet even as some physicians turn away from their commitment to medical gold standards, some politicians, newly wary about global financial turbulence, talk of restoring the financial gold standard. Gold standards, whether actual or figurative, represent structures of exchange and aspirations toward stability, despite developments that threaten both”.

I hope readers had a déjà vu all over again experience when reading this. Can ASR also be viewed as an attempt to establish an “epistemic hegemony”, to push the belief of “randomized studies as the only means of learning the truth”? Have we, on the other hand, seen evidence on ASR for wishes to implement an “ecumenical approach to (...) research”, calls for “more flexible standards for what counts as acceptable study designs”? I guess no, right?

What about attempts to review “personalised [audio reproduction]”, to draw the attention “away from the ‘typical’ [consumer]” and into “idiosyncrasies...of individual [consumers]”?

Isn’t it obvious that the Harman method reminds one of RCTs, where the individual is replaced by an average, as if a randomized patient? Is it coincidence that Harman is dogmatically against room correction (above transition area/Schroeder), for isn’t room correction an attempt to “[refocus] attention away from the ‘typical’ patients analysed by RCTs and onto the idiosyncrasies, genetic or owherwise, of individual patients”?

And have in mind that Harman’s only study of room correction software a decade ago concluded that some room correction software had benefits. The strongest Harman voice on room correction since then, is @Floyd Toole , who wrote an article in JAES recently (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...keting-story-theory-without-measurement.7127/) where he called such software “an enticing marketing story”, despite the fact that his conclusion did not rest on the equivalent of CRTs, the gold standard, which is blind testing in audio research. Is this an example of selective use of “the gold” standard?

Have in mind too, that a recent debate on ASR was about the Harman method in headphones research. Even if there is good reason to use an individual’s unique head related transfer function (HRTF), Harman insists on averaging HRTFs for a randomized customer. There was, again, little support for a debate that “refocuses clinical attention away from the “typical” patients analysed by RCTs and onto the idiosyncrasies, genetic or otherwise, of individual patients”.

When one raises epistemic questions on ASR, readers react with denial, dismissal and diversion. As predicted by Rayner (2012). The uncomfortable knowledge is the fact that on ASR, as in other research fields, there is a fight to preserve a certain “epistemic hegemony”. And this hegemony is sometimes called “the gold standard of audio science”. Has ASR anything to learn from the debate on gold standard in other fields? Is Lancet too “obscure”, a place for “localized controversy”, “irrelevant”?

What happened when @amirm read my question of gold standard? Take a look at this answer:

“No. I used the term generically as people do in conversation. For @svart-hvitt to run with that word is beyond pedantic”.
Source: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-for-discourse-on-asr.8212/page-4#post-205602

Full dismissal, right? As predicted by Rayner (2012).

ASR has a promising start. This post is written in good spirit. However, why not learn about epistemology from other fields to avoid making the same mistakes over again? How come the need to form ASR in the “monotheistic traditions”, “...with a commitment to universal truths, unitary paradigms, and a “single-minded approach to illness and care””?

- - - - - - -

REFERENCE OF SPECIAL IMPORTANCE: https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736(15)60742-5
You lost me at social construction.

Skipping on down, this is still about the gold standard?

PLEASE stop digging now!

Hopefully you don't now need to define the allegorical digging.
 
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svart-hvitt

svart-hvitt

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You lost me at social construction.

Skipping on down, this is still about the gold standard?

PLEASE stop digging now!

Hopefully you don't now need to define the allegorical digging.

In another thread active now (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...e-can-be-a-little-worrisome.8225/#post-205571) people note the differences between this site and other sites.

One ASR user wrote:

«Well, that's the SBAF site in a nutshell. I personally know folks that use that site a lot, and they are good people, but damn, in general those guys seem like a cult».

Isn’t it interesting to note these differences ACROSS social groups?

My point is too that even WITHIN groups, there are differences, battles for hegemony - which may not be readily visible.

I wanted to cast light on the social processes - both across and within social groups - to understand group dynamics. Needless to say, even within science there are competing paradigms, which the Lancet article highlighted. Maybe ASR will be different, guided by only one research program?

If one is convinced that one single research program uncovers the truth, then that’s fine but not particularly helpful if one wishes to avoid sins of omission.
 

Old Listener

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Here’s another example of the use of the term gold standard:

«As some of you know, the gold standard in objective audio measurements for speakers is the work Dr. Toole/Olive have done at NRC and Harman».
Source: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-i-get-into-speaker-testing-measurement.7904/

To me, it seems like @amirm uses the word «gold standard» in a way that resembles what’s discussed in Lancet.

If @amirm really thinks the Harman method is not the gold standard after all, he should say so.

When you finish chewing on "gold standard", you might reflect on the word "quibble".

If you want to be the center of attention here, do some work to merit that attention.
 
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svart-hvitt

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Has ASR inked a syndication deal with Metaphysics Today?

All of the words in the post title (UNCOMFORTABLE KNOWLEDGE IN MONOTHEISTIC SOCIETIES IN SEARCH FOR UNIVERSAL TRUTHS) are from the Lancet article.

The choice of terms and combination of words from that article, that I put in the title, was to appease those who called for a more catchy writing style.

What concerns the content, if that’s what you find «metaphysical», it is an attempt to try and discuss epistemology on ASR. How many threads on DACs do we have. And how many threads do we have on methods in science? Where’s the omission?
 

watchnerd

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All of the words in the post title (UNCOMFORTABLE KNOWLEDGE IN MONOTHEISTIC SOCIETIES IN SEARCH FOR UNIVERSAL TRUTHS) are from the Lancet article.

The choice of terms and combination of words from that article, that I put in the title, was to appease those who called for a more catchy writing style.

What concerns the content, if that’s what you find «metaphysical», it is an attempt to try and discuss epistemology on ASR. How many threads on DACs do we have. And how many threads do we have on methods in science? Where’s the omission?

I agree we've probably over-pivoted on DACs.

But I think the answer is to measure other kinds of stuff, not quote articles from medical journals that don't resonate with audio gearheads.

I'm trying to do my part in the esoteric area of SUT / cartridge interfaces by making rips of vinyl test sweeps.
 

Blumlein 88

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In another thread active now (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...e-can-be-a-little-worrisome.8225/#post-205571) people note the differences between this site and other sites.

One ASR user wrote:

«Well, that's the SBAF site in a nutshell. I personally know folks that use that site a lot, and they are good people, but damn, in general those guys seem like a cult».

Isn’t it interesting to note these differences ACROSS social groups?

My point is too that even WITHIN groups, there are differences, battles for hegemony - which may not be readily visible.

I wanted to cast light on the social processes - both across and within social groups - to understand group dynamics. Needless to say, even within science there are competing paradigms, which the Lancet article highlighted. Maybe ASR will be different, guided by only one research program?

If one is convinced that one single research program uncovers the truth, then that’s fine but not particularly helpful if one wishes to avoid sins of omission.
I'm more of an engineering mindset. So group dynamics interest me only as much as I can't avoid them. I'd rather get on with it and make something work or fix what does not work.

I'm not saying interest by you or others shouldn't be shown. But engineering types are going to see this as navel gazing I think. I think your points need More focus and brevity to get more activity.

I am not saying only engineering mindsets should be here. I do think they are more prevalent currently.
 

valkeryie

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Your post is certainly thought provoking. I am not certain that I get your point though.

As it happens I just watched an hour and a half you tube lecture by Floyd Toole , which generally made me want to at least check a copy of his book out of a library. He evidences sufficient logos and ethos that I suppose he qualifies as an "idol". Though since I have been out of the hobby for a long while I only this year discovered him.

As he pointed out, establishing correlation between measurements and preferences is very difficult , time consuming and expensive. I wonder if it's "Important" in the audio context.

I notice that many non scientifically oriented audiophiles will fixate on a particular idea or principle which then influences their whole experience in the hobby. Such as "tubes sound better" or "I hate crossovers, I want a full range driver" or "I can hear the difference between class A and class D" (not to mention cables ,etc)

I also notice that people who are trying to sell things , frequently suborn scientific authority by making statements about the audibility of certain things. For example I was watching a lecture that John Curl was giving, to audiophiles , not the AES wherein he was talking about the evils of ninth harmonic distortion and how it contributes to listening fatigue and you don't really notice it but it just makes you turn your system off. Of course the
lecture was sponsored by Parasound and they were promoting their amplifiers. The guy that designs Chord D/A converters has given similar "Master classes" wherein he talked about distortions that were very far down but yet somehow audible. In both these cases it is very difficult for the average scientifically literate audio nut to challenge or accept such statements. These statements sound very similar to statements that ARE generally accepted such as "the first sound arrival at your ears is the most important/influential".

One thing that John Curl said which I liked. "You have to put in your 10,000 hours"

Interestingly Floyd Toole showed a chart which showed that audio salesman were second only to explicitly trained listeners in being able to detect audio problems.
No - as I recall Audio Salesmen scored rather poorly on Toole and Olives testing. Audio critics were barely better than folks off the street. Of course the best were the "trained listeners". I have taken a bit of that training and it does seem to sharpen the auditory senses - particularly in regards various bands within the spectrum being boosted compared to the rest of the spectrum. Try that training it is available on line.
 
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