Marantz Cinema 50 AVR Review

[Thomas_A]

In simple words , Denon sounds bit dull(may be flatter) and Marantz sounds bit bright and more separation along with better soundstage(not fatiguing).

If anything Marantz tend to use shallow filters for their DACs that rolls off the high frequencies. Whether it is audible is another question.

 

[peng]

In simple words , Denon sounds bit dull(may be flatter) and Marantz sounds bit bright and more separation along with better soundstage(not fatiguing).

Great post, without the typical kind of exaggerated or misleading claim using narrative like night and day difference, even my new born daugher heard the much more musical Marantz sound blablabla..., you nailed it in one simple sentence!! The thing is, when it comes to subjective measurements, such feedback is all over the place, the only apparent consistency at times would likely be due to internet hearsay and would not be a reliable indicator at all. I have experience with half a dozen Marantz devices including avr, avp, preamp, power amps, and about the same number of Denon AVRs and could never hear different signatures when compared under the same conditions when DSPs are not used. With DSPs, sure there were audible differences but, in such cases, examples: action, science fictions etc.) there would be so many things going on, it is hard to really say which one sounded better.

I really am tired of trying to imagine why so many people could hear differences between even the virtual twins of D+M units, e.g. Cinema 70 vs AVR-X2800H, SR6015 Vs AVR-X3700H etc. (internal parts and circuitry) when there's precious little differences technically except under one of two conditions when the most sensitive train ears might have reasons to be able to detect a subtle difference. The reason I say something now to such a post is because you happen to be among the few that actually thought Denon sounds dull/flatter and Marantz sounds bit bright..., most (not all..) seemed to have said the opposite. As such, it is a good example of how unreliable subjective measurements/reviews are.

Anyway, if one is ocd enough to search for online comments, one would see a good spectrum of such opinions on different sound signatures of well-designed, price/feature comparable AVRs, some more extreme/or unusual (such as yours) than others, so logically speaking it may be a waste of time to base one's purchase decision on users' opinions on sound quality, compared to simply based one's decision on specs/features and measurements.

 

[EWL5]

I have both DIRAC and Audessy in my Marantz cinema 50.
My recommendation would be , if you don't have separate stereo for listening music , then upgrade to DIRAC in your AVR.
I definitely don't like DIRAC for Movie(very dull and not detailed surrounds) compared to Audessy which is damn good for movies.
For music DIRAC is bit better compared to Audessy. Its bit laid back, clear bass presentation and decent soundstage. Audessy in music , the bass seems to be bit extra boomy and voice is bit not clear. (may be this is me?)
I switch DIRAC(for youtube music videos) , Audessy for Movies strictly and Direct pure audio(without any processing like room correction software's) to my dedicated stereo amp for music. That being said I have basic reflection(first reflection) corrected in my room.

Did you adjust the subwoofer gain after either Audyssey or Dirac calibration or left untouched? You might be the first I've seen saying Dirac was better for music vs movies!

 

[techsamurai]

In simple words , Denon sounds bit dull(may be flatter) and Marantz sounds bit bright and more separation along with better soundstage(not fatiguing).

Interesting - dull and flat seem to go together in my dictionary too and I was just exposed to flatness recently.

Personally, I would describe it as going to a restaurant and seeing a buffet of pre-cooked food. The Marantz (my 8002 at least) has a chef's presentation of the food (by accident or by design, I don't know) - I would see things on the plate that are missing at the buffet. I noticed a distinct instrument in a song and my Cinema 70 played it. \

 

[jiji]

Did you adjust the subwoofer gain after either Audyssey or Dirac calibration or left untouched? You might be the first I've seen saying Dirac was better for music vs movies!

After both the calibrations(Audessy & DIRAC) , i don't touch the subwoofer controls.
But i tame them with some house curve to handle bass(if more bass region) after calibration in the software.
Again the bass is not a concern for movies in both of them, but it is the details and separation(good surround) in Audessy compared to DIRAC which is very silent( some time i dont hear from the surround & Atoms speakers). Audessy with low volumes you can enjoy a good presence sound + surround .
So DIRAC is silent and Dull where Audessy is detailed and better surround reporduction during movies.
May be I'm doing some thing wrong in my DIRAC calibration?
May be i will present some plots later.

 

[peng]

Did you adjust the subwoofer gain after either Audyssey or Dirac calibration or left untouched? You might be the first I've seen saying Dirac was better for music vs movies!

I might have said that too, so count me as second haha..

 

[EWL5]

After both the calibrations(Audessy & DIRAC) , i don't touch the subwoofer controls.
But i tame them with some house curve to handle bass(if more bass region) after calibration in the software.
Again the bass is not a concern for movies in both of them, but it is the details and separation(good surround) in Audessy compared to DIRAC which is very silent( some time i dont hear from the surround & Atoms speakers). Audessy with low volumes you can enjoy a good presence sound + surround .
So DIRAC is silent and Dull where Audessy is detailed and better surround reporduction during movies.
May be I'm doing some thing wrong in my DIRAC calibration?
May be i will present some plots later.

Did you audit the Audyssey and DIRAC calibrations using the same ATMOS tracks? This is surprising that the surrounds would be silent for one calibration vs the other!
In general, a common complaint amongst movie lovers is that ATMOS tracks don't seem to get a lot of action for the surrounds/heights, etc. I just wanted to make sure you were comparing the 2 calibrations equally w/the same ATMOS track!

 

[jiji]

Did you audit the Audyssey and DIRAC calibrations using the same ATMOS tracks? This is surprising that the surrounds would be silent for one calibration vs the other!
In general, a common complaint amongst movie lovers is that ATMOS tracks don't seem to get a lot of action for the surrounds/heights, etc. I just wanted to make sure you were comparing the 2 calibrations equally w/the same ATMOS track!

I tried same atmos movies 4k discs(tried Lord of rings and madmax ) in both Audessy & DIRAC and i experience Audessy is better for movies. It doesn't means DIRAC is worst , it is good, but the presentation and the effects in the movies when using Audessy , it was better compared to DIRAC. I feel in Audessy, Atmos, DTS X processing is doing some magic for movies here(guess).
I dont have time to share more plots now , but whenever i have i will share my plots(rew, DIRAC, Audessy etc)

 

[EWL5]

I tried same atmos movies 4k discs(tried Lord of rings and madmax ) in both Audessy & DIRAC and i experience Audessy is better for movies. It doesn't means DIRAC is worst , it is good, but the presentation and the effects in the movies when using Audessy , it was better compared to DIRAC. I feel in Audessy, Atmos, DTS X processing is doing some magic for movies here(guess).
I dont have time to share more plots now , but whenever i have i will share my plots(rew, DIRAC, Audessy etc)

One follow-up question: to the best of your knowledge, was any Loudness Management or Dynamic EQ applied when listening to Atmos track via Audyssey?

 

[jiji]

One follow-up question: to the best of your knowledge, was any Loudness Management or Dynamic EQ applied when listening to Atmos track via Audyssey?

I have Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset=0db is ON. Nothing else. This is used in Audessy to compensate the lack of standardization outside the film industry 'Audyssey Dynamic EQ uses the standard film mixing level as its reference'.
All other enhancements are off.

 

[techsamurai]

I have Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset=0db is ON. Nothing else. This is used in Audessy to compensate the lack of standardization outside the film industry 'Audyssey Dynamic EQ uses the standard film mixing level as its reference'.
All other enhancements are off.

I find DEQ changes female voices to sound almost male-like in both the Cinema 70 and 4800h but that could be me.

I'm not a sound engineer but just using my limited knowledge of frequencies which Denon and Marantz have forced me to take a crash course in, the 80-250hz range needs more resolution. I think it goes back to how sound engineers treat things equally when sound ranges are clearly not equal.

 

[techsamurai]

I find DEQ changes female voices to sound almost male-like in both the Cinema 70 and 4800h but that could be me.

I'm not a sound engineer but just using my limited knowledge of frequencies which Denon and Marantz have forced me to take a crash course in, the 80-250hz range needs more resolution. I think it goes back to how sound engineers treat things equally when sound ranges are clearly not equal.

And in case, Audyssey or Dirac folks read this - they may need to analyze the sound to determine what it is before they correct it much like a 3d spatial reconstruction only applied to audio - it's not enough to just bump frequencies up because a female voice may not have those frequencies that they are augmenting and I think that's the issue.

I can't detect it in movies with, say, bullets because I don't have a frame of reference but I might also be able to hear it on guitars and other instruments but voices are like skin tones, much more recognizable strokes on the canvas.

 

[EWL5]

I have Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset=0db is ON. Nothing else. This is used in Audessy to compensate the lack of standardization outside the film industry 'Audyssey Dynamic EQ uses the standard film mixing level as its reference'.
All other enhancements are off.

This is important because I don't think DIRAC makes use of Dynamic EQ setting at all (and possibly why movie tracks sound "better" w/Audyssey).

 

[raybies]

Speaker placement recommendation for Aura 3D.
Objective: Increase immersion; currently, the sound isn't as enveloping as I desire; it distinctly originates from the front.

I have a 3.1 + Cinema 50 in my bedroom; it's my 2nd unit. The first broke with the Protection LED flashing @ 0.5s. After testing various audio modes, I surprisingly find Aura 2D the most immersive in my environment. I have Dirac (meh), and I listen to 30% music, 10% games, and 60% movies/shows.

Questions:

1. Is Aura 3D worth putting in wall/ceiling speakers?
2. Considering my bedroom layout (see pic) where would you place additional speakers, I am limited to the roof and rear wall, or would you not bother?
   

 

[techsamurai]

Speaker placement recommendation for Aura 3D.
Objective: Increase immersion; currently, the sound isn't as enveloping as I desire; it distinctly originates from the front.

I have a 3.1 + Cinema 50 in my bedroom; it's my 2nd unit. The first broke with the Protection LED flashing @ 0.5s. After testing various audio modes, I surprisingly find Aura 2D the most immersive in my environment. I have Dirac (meh), and I listen to 30% music, 10% games, and 60% movies/shows.

Questions:

1. Is Aura 3D worth putting in wall/ceiling speakers?
2. Considering my bedroom layout (see pic) where would you place additional speakers, I am limited to the roof and rear wall, or would you not bother? View attachment 321871

How did you calibrate Dirac? I'm surprised to hear meh but that's exactly what I thought of its music reproduction on the RZ50. I went in expecting good sound and instead I came out with egg on my face. Everyone says Dirac is great - I'm scratching my head here. Is great the same as scoring over 60 on an exam?

Not that the 4800h did a better job with Audyssey XT32 although the folks here helped me get it to much better sound. I've bought 3 AVRs in one month...

 

[raybies]

How did you calibrate Dirac? I'm surprised to hear meh but that's exactly what I thought of its music reproduction on the RZ50. I went in expecting good sound and instead I came out with egg on my face. Everyone says Dirac is great - I'm scratching my head here. Is great the same as scoring over 60 on an exam?

Not that the 4800h did a better job with Audyssey XT32 although the folks here helped me get it to much better sound. I've bought 3 AVRs in one month...

Tightly focused around the left pillow and away from the wall. I used the default curve, with 1 bright (+3dB treble) and 1 warm (-3 treble) curve, settling on the Bright. Don't misunderstand, there's nothing amiss with the sound; it simply doesn't augment Audessey's contribution, perhaps slightly affecting TV speech quality. I've performed 3 different measurements on 2 units.

I've discovered that angling the Audessey mic at a 60-degree towards the speakers improves SQ (tighter bass and fuller sound) in my subjective opinion in my room.

 

[GXAlan]

I went in expecting good sound and instead I came out with egg on my face. Everyone says Dirac is great - I'm scratching my head here.

With your RZ50
1) Which microphone did you use?
2) What target curve did you use?
3) How did you measure?

I find that Dirac works well because it gives users extra control (though Ratbuddysey and MultEQ-X are good too) but I suspect that the default choices set up by Dirac are to blame.

I also think it odd that Dirac doesn’t save a few presets automatically the way every other system does. You can create multiple presets, but it’s user directed.

 

[jiji]

This is important because I don't think DIRAC makes use of Dynamic EQ setting at all (and possibly why movie tracks sound "better" w/Audyssey).

I can check disabling that and report back.

 

[raybies]

Does anyone know what you can do in the Advanced menu of the web UI?

This is an ugly target curve which is inspired by Fibonacci and Knowles (https://www.knowles.com/preferred-listening-response), but in my environment sounds significantly better than the default and Harman curves I've tried.

NAME
Unnamed
DEVICENAME
CINEMA 50
BREAKPOINTS
0 4.645
21 4.645
34 4.29
55 3.635
89 2.175
144 -0.3
233 -0.76
377 -0.42
610 0.61
987 0
1597 3.77
2584 4.4
4181 3.77
6765 2.33
10946 -1.44
17711 9.87
20000 -10
24000 -10
LOWLIMITHZ
17.7822
HIGHLIMITHZ
22050

 

[techsamurai]

Does anyone know what you can do in the Advanced menu of the web UI?
View attachment 322864

This is an ugly target curve which is inspired by Fibonacci and Knowles (https://www.knowles.com/preferred-listening-response), but in my environment sounds significantly better than the default and Harman curves I've tried.
View attachment 322868

NAME
Unnamed
DEVICENAME
CINEMA 50
BREAKPOINTS
0 4.645
21 4.645
34 4.29
55 3.635
89 2.175
144 -0.3
233 -0.76
377 -0.42
610 0.61
987 0
1597 3.77
2584 4.4
4181 3.77
6765 2.33
10946 -1.44
17711 9.87
20000 -10
24000 -10
LOWLIMITHZ
17.7822
HIGHLIMITHZ
22050

Is this part of Audyssey Pro? Where do you find curves?