MA Gold 5g + 1120 = Power Amp needed

[OhmSweetOhm]

I’ve really enjoyed this forum for a while, and it has been very helpful. Now, I finally decided to start a thread since local stores and people can’t help me.

I have a 47 m² (506 ft²) L-shaped living space, including a dining area and kitchen. The listening area isn’t huge.

Right now, my setup is:
Front: Monitor Audio Gold 100 5G (86dB, 4 Ohm)
Center: Monitor Audio Radius 200
Rear: Monitor Audio Radius 90
Sub: SVS SB-1000 (GF-friendly placement)

I can add pictures if needed.

I’m currently using a Denon X4800H (from a friend), but I feel it lacks headroom for the Gold 100s (only 120W at 8 Ohm, weaker transformer).

Next week, I’ll be upgrading to an Anthem MRX1120 (140W at 8 Ohm, better toroidal power supply). I chose Anthem for ARC Genesis to help with my tricky room and because I listen to music 60% of the time.

However, after reading about Anthem’s 4-ohm performance, I’m wondering if adding a power amp or integrated amp with bypass would be beneficial. Measurements suggest only 150W at 4 Ohm, which seems low given the 140W at 8 Ohm. See the measurements here:

Anthem MRX1120 Home Theater AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Anthem MRX1120 "flagship" Home Theater Surround 4K/UHD 11.2 Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). Got all that? It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $3,499. You have seen one Athem AVR, you have seen them all: The top of the case looks a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Should I wait for the Anthem to arrive, or would adding an amp be a good move for my fronts? I would really like an audiophile Stereo setup AND have something nice for movies.

Requirements:

- Budget: 500 to 900 euros
- Must have a DC trigger
- Must fit in a 40 cm (15.7 in) Ikea BESTA (max depth 15.3 in or 39 cm)
- Bypass feature (if integrated amp)

Options:

- Atoll IN200 SE (600 euros used) – has bypass, DC trigger, and fits (32 cm or 12.6 in deep)

Btw Atoll AM200 poweramp might be a better option, but only new available (1200-1400 euros so above my budget). And I might want to add a CD player / Phono later..

The AVI S21 was also suggested, but it’s old and missing features…

And Musical Fidelity and Emotiva are nice sounding amp in combination with MA from what I read online but they are often too large.

Would love to hear your thoughts or recommendations!

 

[Chrispy]

If you need a lot more power then relying on avr amps may not be your best route. The difference between the Denon and the Anthem power levels is fairly insignificant in any case (less than 1dB spl, which isn't a lot---takes a doubling of power to make a 3dB difference, which still isn't a lot). An avr with pre-outs for use of whatever amp you want may work, and probably would just use a 2 or 3ch amp to power the mains. I wouldn't expect different "sound" (whether the audio is music or otherwise) from different brands of amps/avrs other than ability to drive speakers to levels you want.

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

Yeah, thanks, that’s what I expected.

I do listen at higher volumes often, but I was hoping a dedicated stereo amp would also improve the experience at lower levels. However, maybe that’s not the case since I’d still be using the Anthem DAC.

The Atoll IN200 SE delivers a solid 200W per channel at 4 Ohms and has two dedicated toroidal power supplies. It has everything I need, but I’m open to other suggestions under 15.3 inches (38 cm) deep, both integrated amps with bypass and DC trigger, as well as power amps.

 

[Chrispy]

Yeah, thanks, that’s what I expected.

I do listen at higher volumes often, but I was hoping a dedicated stereo amp would also improve the experience at lower levels. However, maybe that’s not the case since I’d still be using the Anthem DAC.

The Atoll IN200 SE delivers a solid 200W per channel at 4 Ohms and has two dedicated toroidal power supplies. It has everything I need, but I’m open to other suggestions under 15.3 inches (38 cm) deep, both integrated amps with bypass and DC trigger, as well as power amps.

Why would it be particularly better at lower levels with different amps? The avrs with good low level compensation for the way we hear with dynamic eq is often a very good way to go. The DACs are fine, not likely to have any particular audible role if they are functioning properly. 200w at 4 ohm is okay, but not particularly powerful. Have you calculated power needs based on your spl goals at your distance from the speakers? Maybe this can help http://www.hometheaterengineering.com/splcalculator.html

 

[kyuu]

I would cancel or send back the Anthem. It doesn't have meaningfully more power than the Denon (and perhaps has less in practice considering the Denon 4800H has a peak power at 1% THD+N 4R of 280W per the review), and if you want something different and maybe better than the included Audyssey then buy a Dirac license for the Denon. If you're concerned about not having enough power for transient peaks when you're listening loudly, just hook up something beefy to the Audyssey's pre-outs like a Buckeye NC502MP or Buckeye NCx500 and you're golden. If you're in Europe, then instead perhaps an Audiophonics AP300-S500NC or Audiophonics LPA-S600NCX.

Although it occurs to me I'm not clear if you are needing to give back the 4800H to your friend or if it's yours to keep so you're looking for your own AVR? In that case I'd still send back the Anthem and get a Denon 3800H and otherwise stand by everything else I said.

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

I would cancel or send back the Anthem. It doesn't have meaningfully more power than the Denon (and perhaps has less in practice considering the Denon 4800H has a peak power at 1% THD+N 4R of 280W per the review), and if you want something different and maybe better than the included Audyssey then buy a Dirac license for the Denon. If you're concerned about not having enough power for transient peaks when you're listening loudly, just hook up something beefy to the Audyssey's pre-outs like a Buckeye NC502MP or Buckeye NCx500 and you're golden. If you're in Europe, then instead perhaps an Audiophonics AP300-S500NC or Audiophonics LPA-S600NCX.

Although it occurs to me I'm not clear if you are needing to give back the 4800H to your friend or if it's yours to keep so you're looking for your own AVR? In that case I'd still send back the Anthem and get a Denon 3800H and otherwise stand by everything else I said.

First of all, thanks a lot for your input. It’s really interesting, though a bit disappointing for me.

Here’s the full story: I previously had a Marantz Cinema 50 (and before that, the 60), but I didn’t like the sound for music playback, even after trying different speakers. A friend I recently met recommended Anthem, saying it was far superior to Denon/Marantz. He was convinced I’d get both an audiophile experience and great movie performance if I went for a second-hand Anthem with ARC Genesis. According to him, it’s in a different league compared to modern Denon/Marantz models.

To answer your question, the X4800H isn’t mine and needs to be returned.

The X4800H can be bought here for 1350 euros.
The Dirac license (without the bass module) costs 335 euros. So 1686 euro !

I was able to get the Anthem from UK eBay for 950 GBP (so about 1080 euros and I’m done).

My friend will bring it to the Netherlands this Thursday.

Did I make a mistake and would the x3800h (899 euro here) + your amps and Dirac be better for a Audiophile setup ? I like the Naim / Musical Fidelity sound btw….

 

[Old_School_Brad]

Why not connect a Crown XLS to the pre-out of your Denon?

Given the sensitivity of your main speakers, any noise from the amp would likely be negligible. You’d get the power you need. It doesn't have trigger in though.

Crown XLS2502 Stereo Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Crown XLS2502 DriveCore (switching) 2-channel amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member. The XLS 2502 cost US $645 including free shipping from Amazon. It has DSP functionality which I did not test. And is specified to drive 2 ohm load...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Crown XLS 2502

Amplificateur de puissance DriveCore Avec circuit de classe D, Modes d'amplificateur: stéréo 2 canaux, bridge mono ou mode Y, Puissance: 2x 1200 Watt / 2 Ohms, 2x 775 Watt / 4 Ohms, 2x 440 Watt / 8 Ohms, bridge: 1x 2400 Watt / 4 Ohms, bridge: 1x...

www.thomann.de

 

[kyuu]

The X4800H can be bought here for 1350 euros.
The Dirac license (without the bass module) costs 335 euros. So 1686 euro !

I was able to get the Anthem from UK eBay for 950 GBP (so about 1080 euros and I’m done).

My friend will bring it to the Netherlands this Thursday.

Did I make a mistake and would the x3800h (899 euro here) + your amps and Dirac be better for a Audiophile setup ? I like the Naim / Musical Fidelity sound btw….

Ah well if you are getting the Anthem cheaper (pricing is hard to predict given unexpected deals and other markets one isn't familiar with) then you're perfectly alright keeping it. The ARC system works pretty well from what I gather, and while I'd personally generally recommend Denon over it, there isn't anything wrong with the Anthem. I, like many here, don't believe in sound differences between brands of electronics, assuming they're doing their job competently, but if you have a preference for a particular brand then do what makes you happy.

 

[Moonbase]

It think you have chosen well and I would wait and see how it goes with the 4ohm speakers. I run 4ohm speakers and AVR are often not recommended. In my case the work perfectly and it definitely a step up from my old denon 4600.
I have genius, dirac and room perfect and they all have there good and bad points. Genius works really well and gets the job done without tweaking, Dirac has come a long way and the latest versions need little tweaking as long as you carful with setting everything up and understand the jargon.

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

Ah well if you are getting the Anthem cheaper (pricing is hard to predict given unexpected deals and other markets one isn't familiar with) then you're perfectly alright keeping it. The ARC system works pretty well from what I gather, and while I'd personally generally recommend Denon over it, there isn't anything wrong with the Anthem. I, like many here, don't believe in sound differences between brands of electronics, assuming they're doing their job competently, but if you have a preference for a particular brand then do what makes you happy.

Edit@: Keep in mind the 1120 is from 2016 (bought it second hand for 1080 euro) and the x4800h I can buy new for 1350.. so you still think I should keep the Anthem?

But yeah hahaha, I didn’t want to start a debate about whether there’s a sound quality difference between brands. People here seem more rational compared to some purists on audiophile forums, and I can believe that differences between AVRs are negligible. Maybe some ppl really hear differences between Amps that guys like Armin here can’t test?! Placebo? Haha I realize it’s a rabbit hole..

But are you also saying that adding a dedicated two-channel power amp or an integrated stereo amp (possibly with a high-quality streamer in the future) wouldn’t improve sound quality over just using the 1120?

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

It think you have chosen well and I would wait and see how it goes with the 4ohm speakers. I run 4ohm speakers and AVR are often not recommended. In my case the work perfectly and it definitely a step up from my old denon 4600.
I have genius, dirac and room perfect and they all have there good and bad points. Genius works really well and gets the job done without tweaking, Dirac has come a long way and the latest versions need little tweaking as long as you carful with setting everything up and understand the jargon.

Nice! Is your ARC genesis device a mrc1120? and are your 4 ohm speakers also 86dB?

 

[Chrispy]

First of all, thanks a lot for your input. It’s really interesting, though a bit disappointing for me.

Here’s the full story: I previously had a Marantz Cinema 50 (and before that, the 60), but I didn’t like the sound for music playback, even after trying different speakers. A friend I recently met recommended Anthem, saying it was far superior to Denon/Marantz. He was convinced I’d get both an audiophile experience and great movie performance if I went for a second-hand Anthem with ARC Genesis. According to him, it’s in a different league compared to modern Denon/Marantz models.

To answer your question, the X4800H isn’t mine and needs to be returned.

The X4800H can be bought here for 1350 euros.
The Dirac license (without the bass module) costs 335 euros. So 1686 euro !

I was able to get the Anthem from UK eBay for 950 GBP (so about 1080 euros and I’m done).

My friend will bring it to the Netherlands this Thursday.

Did I make a mistake and would the x3800h (899 euro here) + your amps and Dirac be better for a Audiophile setup ? I like the Naim / Musical Fidelity sound btw….

How are you determining "sound" of different processors/avrs? More likely your own manufacture than anything real. Especially if you can't make proper comparisons, which I doubt you have.

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

How are you determining "sound" of different processors/avrs? More likely your own manufacture than anything real. Especially if you can't make proper comparisons, which I doubt you have.

You’re absolutely right—I didn’t conduct proper A/B or blind testing between AVRs. I only tested the Denon at home using some reference Tidal tracks, whereas in the store, I was able to switch instantly between two AVRs using a remote.

Because of my somewhat unclear first post, people like Crispy brought up power concerns. But to be fair, the Denon is loud enough with no clipping, so this is purely a perceived sound quality “issue”.

Many argue that a high-quality stereo amp outperforms an AVR in the same price range, while others here suggest that adding a dedicated power or stereo amp wouldn’t make a difference—even something like a €2000 integrated stereo amp (or a €600–1000 second-hand unit) used as a power amp. Could this be due to the DAC in the Anthem that is responsible for processing? For an audiophile setup, does this mean I would need both a separate streamer and a stereo amplifier in addition to my 1120?

If we do a thought experiment and we assume I have sorted the room acoustics and also assuming power is not the issue?! What would be a proper investment as poweramp / Integrated stereo amp to really have a nice SQ improvement over just the 1120?

 

[JeremyFife]

You’re absolutely right—I didn’t conduct proper A/B or blind testing between AVRs. I only tested the Denon at home using some reference Tidal tracks, whereas in the store, I was able to switch instantly between two AVRs using a remote.

Because of my somewhat unclear first post, people like Crispy brought up power concerns. But to be fair, the Denon is loud enough with no clipping, so this is purely a perceived sound quality “issue”.

Many argue that a high-quality stereo amp outperforms an AVR in the same price range, while others here suggest that adding a dedicated power or stereo amp wouldn’t make a difference—even something like a €2000 integrated stereo amp (or a €600–1000 second-hand unit) used as a power amp. Could this be due to the DAC in the Anthem that is responsible for processing? For an audiophile setup, does this mean I would need both a separate streamer and a stereo amplifier in addition to my 1120?

If we do a thought experiment and we assume I have sorted the room acoustics and also assuming power is not the issue?! What would be a proper investment as poweramp / Integrated stereo amp to really have a nice SQ improvement over just the 1120?

For your thought experiment ... a competently designed Amplifier, operating within it's design parameters (not overloaded, not driving a difficult load) is just "a piece of wire with gain". There can be no appreciably audible difference if you change wires. DACs are the same.

As long as you have enough power, you are good.

You might find something like e.g. load dependency at the frequency extremes, if the amps are designed like that ... but you are using room correction so that is corrected for.

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

I get it now. If there are no power issues, adding an amp while still using the Anthem wouldn’t make any difference since I’d be using the same DAC.

The only real upgrade in this scenario would be getting a separate streamer and an integrated stereo amp…

 

[JeremyFife]

I get it now. If there are no power issues, adding an amp while still using the Anthem wouldn’t make any difference since I’d be using the same DAC.

The only real upgrade in this scenario would be getting a separate streamer and an integrated stereo amp…

As long as you have enough power, I really doubt that any different integrated amp will sound any different.
What's the issue with your streamer? If you are missing features or streaming services then it's sensible to make a change otherwise there's no real point (for better sound). If you do need a new streamer it is very hard to see past WiiM, even the mini.

ASR is a pain sometimes all my old upgrade plans are on hold because I now recognise that they just wouldn't be improvements - and a proper speaker upgrade really need a new room (a new house!)

It's your system though, if you want some new piece of equipment then it's entirely your choice

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

As long as you have enough power, I really doubt that any different integrated amp will sound any different.
What's the issue with your streamer? If you are missing features or streaming services then it's sensible to make a change otherwise there's no real point (for better sound). If you do need a new streamer it is very hard to see past WiiM, even the mini.

ASR is a pain sometimes all my old upgrade plans are on hold because I now recognise that they just wouldn't be improvements - and a proper speaker upgrade really need a new room (a new house!)

It's your system though, if you want some new piece of equipment then it's entirely your choice

Haha fair enough, I also realize I’m not immune to all the marketing bs and sales pitches of stores.. maybe receiver / amp upgrades are in general useless and the only real upgrade would
Indeed be a better room + excellent speakers.

And yeah I meant if my other variables are good . Then IF I would like to have nice SQ upgrade I would need:

1) an integrated two channel Amp for the mains
2) a streamer because otherwise ill use the MRX1120 DAC. And if I understood it correctly, then adding a power amp to the anthem doesn’t improve anything for this reason.

But again being here on ASR I’m starting to think expensive analog stereo stuff is overrated

 

[Kervel]

I'll add another suggestion: add a second subwoofer. Really helps with smoothing out the bass, and, in my room, was a noticable upgrade. Crucial is that the avr can apply separate eq to each channel

 

[OhmSweetOhm]

As long as you have enough power, I really doubt that any different integrated amp will sound any different.
What's the issue with your streamer? If you are missing features or streaming services then it's sensible to make a change otherwise there's no real point (for better sound). If you do need a new streamer it is very hard to see past WiiM, even the mini.

ASR is a pain sometimes all my old upgrade plans are on hold because I now recognise that they just wouldn't be improvements - and a proper speaker upgrade really need a new room (a new house!)

It's your system though, if you want some new piece of equipment then it's entirely your choice

I want to bring up another point, and I’d love to hear thoughts on this by anyone. This forum puts a strong emphasis on measurable data, which is valuable, but there are some things that simply can’t be measured right?

To draw a comparison with photography (which I know a bit more about): a photo can be perfectly lit, with no exploded highlights (Haha ironically this is also called clipping in photography) and perfect focus, accurate colors etc etc.. and yet still this picture can feel completely emotionless.

So, the question is—can something like that even be measured? Or is there always a subjective element that measurements can’t fully capture?

 

[JustJones]

there are some things that simply can’t be measured right?

Leave out speakers and room to start( we can return to that) and what exactly with your electronic components thats audible to humans can't be measured?