Monitor Audio PL100-3G 'nominal impedance' vs 'minimum impedance'

[Vladimir Filevski]

Yes.

OK, I don't use any software of that kind so I really don't know how to interpret it. So, please tell me - what is the DR of that album and what is the title and artist?

 

[VintageFlanker]

The 'nominal impedance' [aka average impedance] is 4 ohms

Nominal impedance is absolutely not average impedance.
Anyway, that specific spec should pretty much always be ignored.

 

[epping4est]

Nominal impedance is absolutely not average impedance

Correct, as was stated later in this thread, where IEC 60268-5 is the referenced "standard":

The standard defines the minimum impedance to be at least 80% of the nominal impedance.

 

[MatrixS2000]

OK, I don't use any software of that kind so I really don't know how to interpret it. So, please tell me - what is the DR of that album and what is the title and artist?

Sure, but I was hoping you would take another crack at it...

X axis is time, Y access is dynamics (PSR). So what that graph is showing you is how the dynamics are changing throughout the song. So that peak at 30dB is exactly what you said does not exist - that there were no musical recording with musical peaks of 30dB.

 

[MatrixS2000]

Dynamic Range DB strongly disagrees with you:
View attachment 451914

As far as I can see, in this database there are only 2 albums with DR higher than 26 dB. Two (2) is not "quite a few" nor "many".
Of course Dynamic Range DB do not contain all recordings in the existence, but they analyzed 185162 albums (!), so if only 2 albums out of 185,162 have DR over 26 dB, then we can safely conclude: albums with DR range higher than 26 dB are very, very rare.
Or maybe your record collection consist of albums with DR>26dB exclusively? Indeed, how many albums do you have in your collection with DR>26 (30) dB?

You are reading that wrong also. DR = average DR of the entire album. Min DR = lowest scoring song on the album and Max DR = highest scoring song on the album. None of that data is displaying anything regarding musical peaks. Which is why I displayed the graph that does show you that info.

 

[epping4est]

Dynamic Range DB strongly disagrees with you:

Why provide as evidence the database sorted by Average DR (descending) rather than sorted by Maximum DR (descending) as was given?

I stand by my original statement: The Dynamic Range DB includes many albums whose DR exceeds 26 dB.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

So that peak at 30dB is exactly what you said does not exist - that there were no musical recording with musical peaks of 30dB.

I didn't exactly said that - I said there aren't peaks above 30 dB in a view of absence of dynamic range above 30 dB in music recordings (OK, there are several of them). Definition of dynamic range (DR) is: difference between loudest and quietest part of the music recording. According to your software quietest part of that recording is about 10 dB, so the difference is only 30 - 10 = 20 dB.
Your recording is DR=20 dB only!

You are reading that wrong also. DR = average DR of the entire album. Min DR = lowest scoring song on the album and Max DR = highest scoring song on the album. None of that data is displaying anything regarding musical peaks. Which is why I displayed the graph that does show you that info.

No, I am reading it right. I know DR is average DR of the entire album. I just thought it is more important than cherry picking only one recording of the whole album. OK, so you want cherry picking...

There are only 23 recordings (not 23 albums!) with DR>30 dB.
Fine.
That is about 0.012% individual recordings out of 185162 albums.
If we count number of all individual recordings in those 185162 albums, that 0.012% percentage will shrink to insignificance.

Why provide as evidence the database sorted by Average DR (descending) rather than sorted by Maximum DR (descending) as was given?

See above.

I stand by my original statement: The Dynamic Range DB includes many albums whose DR exceeds 26 dB.

Your statement is wrong. Maybe you meant to say that there are many albums in which one or two recordings in them have DR>26 dB.

 

[MatrixS2000]

didn't exactly said that - I said there aren't peaks above 30 dB in a view of absence of dynamic range above 30 dB in music recordings (OK, there are several of them).

Yes you did:

There are no musical recordings with 30 dB musical peaks!

Definition of dynamic range (DR) is: difference between loudest and quietest part of the music recording. According to your software quietest part of that recording is about 10 dB, so the difference is only 30 - 10 = 20 dB.
Your recording is DR=20 dB only!

No, you don’t understand PSR which analyses peak volume and short-term loudness data to measure the dynamic range of a signal. The graph is correctly showing 30dB musical peak just past 1 minute into the recording. Where the DR drops to any other number, it is using the exact same formula to calculate the DR at that moment. It has zero to do with the loudest or quietest portions of the song as all are measured. You don’t subtract the highest from the lowest to get the DR number.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Yes you did:

Not exactly. You didn't quote the second sentence, without which the meaning is lost:

There are no musical recordings with 30 dB musical peaks! Actually, there are only 2 known musical recordings in the existence with over 26 dB peaks.

Again:

I said there aren't peaks above 30 dB in a view of absence of dynamic range above 30 dB in music recordings

Sorry if I was not clear about this.

 

[mhardy6647]

N.B. the actual impedance and phase curves are what the poor amplifier* has to deal with...

___________
* i.e., in the case of the regrettably large number of sadistic loudspeaker loads that have been foisted on poor, unsuspecting hifi buffs.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

No, you don’t understand PSR which analyses peak volume and short-term loudness data to measure the dynamic range of a signal. The graph is correctly showing 30dB musical peak just past 1 minute into the recording. Where the DR drops to any other number, it is using the exact same formula to calculate the DR at that moment. It has zero to do with the loudest or quietest portions of the song as all are measured. You don’t subtract the highest from the lowest to get the DR number.

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. As far as I know, Peak to Short-Term Loudness Ratio (PSR) is not the same as Dynamic Range (DR). Definition of Dynamic Range is simple formula: difference between loudest and quietest portions of the song. What is the formula for DSR calculating?
So, what is the DR of that song and what is the title and artist?

 

[MatrixS2000]

You said this in post # 18 (here you are referring to peak):

There are no musical recordings with 30 dB musical peaks!

You said this on post #47 (now here you are switching to average):

I didn't exactly said that - I said there aren't peaks above 30 dB in a view of absence of dynamic range above 30 dB in music recordings

No problem if you want to revise or clarify your original statement, but let’s keep the facts straight.

I think you are comparing apples to oranges. As far as I know, Peak to Short-Term Loudness Ratio (PSR) is not the same as Dynamic Range (DR).

You are the one that is jumping all over the place. You keep switching between peak (your original statement) and average (your post #47) dynamics measurements. I am showing you peak because that is what you originally stated. The claim that there is no recorded music with great that 30dB musical peaks is simply wrong.

Definition of Dynamic Range is simple: difference between loudest and quietest portions of the song. No other formula as in PSR.

Both are DR measurements. However, PSR is the more powerful, precise and modern measurement algorithm.

So, what is the DR of that song and what is the title and artist?

That is a vinyl rip of Black Sabbath’s Paranoid album - War Pigs.

The average DR for that song is 13, but that was not what you originally said. You said musical peaks which are not captured with tools like Maat DRO Offline (which is what I used to measure the average DR and the preferred measurement tool in the loudness database). You need a tool that will continually measure the song so that you can capture the peaks. I used Adptr Audio’s AB Metric for this, but other tools such as Dynameter will work also. Both (Maat and AB Metric/Dynameter) use PSR as the measurement algorithm.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

No problem if you want to revise or clarify your original statement, but let’s keep the facts straight.

I already revised and clarified my statement. I am guilty as sin, OK? I was looking at the Dynamic Range DB site, so I was referring to their measurements of DR, where there are only 23 recording with DR>30dB, out of185162 albums . Are we OK now?

You are the one that is jumping all over the place. You keep switching between peak (your original statement) and average (your post #47) dynamics measurements.

Maybe it looks like that to you, but you should not take my words from context. You obviously haven't seen my previous post #18:

Actually, there are only 2 known musical recordings in the existence with over 26 dB peaks.

Above was from Dynamic Range DB site, for whole album average - only 2 albums with DR>26 dB. For DRmax, there are 23 recording with DR>30 dB. So - no peaks, but DR, because in that post I was calculating power needed for target SPL.

Both are DR measurements.

Well...

However, PSR is the more powerful, precise and modern measurement algorithm.

So, PSR is not identical to DR! Thank you!
Now, can we compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges?
Like this, for example:

hat is a vinyl rip of Black Sabbath’s Paranoid album - War Pigs.
The average DR for that song is 13,

Thank you, again! So, that song do not have DR=30 dB, but only meagre DR = 13 dB!
Different reissues will have different DR ratings. I found this in the Dynamic Range DB site:

DR = 9 dB only.

 

[MatrixS2000]

I already revised and clarified my statement. I am guilty as sin, OK? I was looking at the Dynamic Range DB site, so I was referring to their measurements of DR, where there are only 23 recording with DR>30dB, out of185162 albums . Are we OK now?

Yup but only now have you admitted to revising and clarifying your original statement.

So, PSR is not identical to DR! Thank you!

PSR is a measurement of dynamic range You need to do some research. Start here, from that:

However, in regard to the new loudness standards, the term “dynamic range” is defined as the measure of the difference between the true peak signal level (in dB) and the loudness measured in LUFS. The new loudness standards include two metrics for this “dynamic range”, one measured over a short average time of three seconds (PSR – Peak to Short-term loudness Ratio) and one measured over an entire song (PLR – Peak to Loudness Ratio).

Thank you, again! So, that song do not have DR=30 dB, but only meagre DR= 13 dB!

If you mean an average dynamic of 13dB, we agree, but it does have a musical dynamic peak of 30dB.

Different reissues will have different DR ratings. I found this in the Dynamic Range DB site:

View attachment 452001

DR=9 only.

Obviously and that is for the digital download that has been limited thus the lower average DR.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Yup but only now have you admitted to revising and clarifying your original statement.

Yes, but are you admitting that you took my words (poorly worded, yes) out of context?

PSR is a measurement of dynamic range

Yes, but it is not equal to DR! Please don't beat that dead horse any further.
Values in Dynamic Range DB site are DR, not PSR. Do you know any database with PSR values of as many albums as in Dynamic Range DB site? No? Just as I thought. How can we compare different albums/recordings if there is no database of PSR values of appreciable number of albums/recordings? All we can do is to compare DR values of albums/recordings in the Dynamic Range DB site.

 

[MatrixS2000]

Yes, but are you admitting that you took my words (poorly worded, yes) out of context?

No, I did not take your words out of context, you changed the context later in the conversation. I cannot read your mind, I won’t know that until you tell me that you are revising or clarifying your original statement.

Yes, but it is not equal to DR! Please don't beat that dead horse any further.

I guess you didn’t read anything.

Values in Dynamic Range DB site are DR, not PSR.

Do you do any research before making claims that are so easily proven wrong?

From the Loudness DB FAQ:

I already told you that Maat DRO OFFline used PSR to calculate DR.

So let’s take a look at an example album - let’s use that Black Sabbath album that you called out as having a DR9 and look a into the details of that album:

And what is clearly called out at the bottom? The algorithm used to calculate the DR value. So your own example is pointing to a DR value that was calculated based on PSR's algorithm, not what you thought it was doing.

Do you know any database with PSR values of as many albums as in Dynamic Range DB site?

Yes, the loudness database site.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

No, I did not take your words out of context, you changed the context later in the conversation. I cannot read your mind, I won’t know that until you tell me that you are revising or clarifying your original statement.

Again (for the last time): My first post in which I mentioned 30 dB peaks for the first time was in post #18:

There are no musical recordings with 30 dB musical peaks! Actually, there are only 2 known musical recordings in the existence with over 26 dB peaks.

The first sentence contains wording "30 dB peaks" and the second sentence contains wording "26 dB peaks" (peaks again!) which values I pulled out from the Dynamic Range DB site, so I was clearly comparing DR values of 30 dB "peaks" and 26 dB "peaks" in those two sentences.
You took that "30 dB musical peaks" out of context. My poor wording did help that - I admit it.
In the same post I did some calculation to find what wattage is needed to get some target SPL - it can be done only using average values, not peaks:

Average loud SPL at the listening position is about 80-86 dB. For the calculation let choose 83 dB value. If listener is at 3m distance from the loudspeaker, than loudspeaker must deliver SPL=92.5 dB/1m (83+9.5). Two loudspeakers...

So your introducing of measured 30 dB peaks is not relevant for this thread and contributes to further confusion (plus mentioning the PSR algorithm, etc):

If you mean an average dynamic of 13dB, we agree, but it does have a musical dynamic peak of 30dB.

Obviously, you didn't read all posts in this thread, otherwise you would find out that the main theme of this thread was: How much power is needed for good reproduction of the most demanding recordings?
Yes, DR=13dB, DR=26dB and DR=30dB are relevant for comparison/calculation. Individual musical dynamic peaks of 30 dB are not relevant. Apples and oranges.

 

[MatrixS2000]

Ok this is my last response to you because I am through wasting my time.

In the same post I did some calculation to find what wattage is needed to get some target SPL - it can be done only using average values, not peaks:

So you think you can ignore the wattage needed to reproduce the peak dynamics? Ok, your amp will be clipping during those peaks. <—that is directly related to the thread theme.

 

[Vladimir Filevski]

Ok this is my last response to you because I am through wasting my time.

Likewise.

So you think you can ignore the wattage needed to reproduce the peak dynamics?

No. You didn't read my calculation from post #18. It is wrong to mix average SPL (quote: "83dB value") with peaks. Apples and oranges. The right way to do the calculation is to use DR.

Ok, your amp will be clipping during those peaks.

No, it will not. See above.

 

[MatrixS2000]

The right way to do the calculation is to use DR.

We don’t disagree on this but you have to use peak dynamics to account for the peak power needed from the amplifier:

How Much Amplifier Power Do I Need?

Peak headroom​

Because music has transient peaks that are 6 to 25 dB above the average level, the power amplifier needs to produce enough power to handle those peaks without distortion.

For example, if you need 100 watts continuous power to achieve the desired average SPL, you need 1,000 watts continuous to handle 10 dB peaks, 3,162 watts to handle 15 dB peaks, and 10,000 watts to handle 20 dB peaks. Clearly, the peaks require far more power than the average levels.

This is why using DR numbers from the loudness database is not useful as those numbers are not peak numbers.