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JBL HDI-3600 Speaker Review

Jon AA

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I don't think so. The 10kHz dip is typical acoustic cancellation issue happening in most waveguides/horns. It doesn't respond to boosting input signal.
That's possible, but not necessarily the case. I've found when a dip is really sharp and really deep that can be the case. So far I've only found that well above 10K though. Of course I've only done it on a couple of horns so far, maybe they're just good ones. ;)

In this case, it's wide enough I'd certainly give it a try. If it doesn't respond, you can stop trying--don't keep throwing gain at it. Then you know for sure.
 

anmpr1

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The "dust" problem is even worse with guitars.
You're supposed to play your guitars--not let them collect dust. :) Then it's the fingerprint problem. Seriously, though, the guitar world is almost as nutz as high end audio. The 'historic replica' scene is particularly weird.

New 'old' for only $7000.00.

fender.jpg
 

Wombat

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You're supposed to play your guitars--not let them collect dust. :) Then it's the fingerprint problem. Seriously, though, the guitar world is almost as nutz as high end audio. The 'historic replica' scene is particularly weird.

New 'old' for only $7000.00.

View attachment 61807


All pales before golf, with driver sets, accessories, exclusive memberships and green fees, travel, etc. Nothing to do with golfing ability.

https://www.hagginoaks.com/blog/worlds-most-expensive-golf-set/


On second thoughts, yacht ownership probably out-trumps golf.
 

anmpr1

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All pales before golf, with driver sets.

The Titleist CNCPT hollow irons utilize an ultrathin face and a mysterious secret alloy never before used in the golf industry.

Wow. I didn't know any of that. Ray Kimber needs to get in touch with Titleist, find out the secret of their secret alloy, and make some speaker cables from it. It'd be a hole in one for both Ray and the high-end cable industry. Or maybe you could simply plug your clubs into your speaker terminals when you're back from the course.
 

GXAlan

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Careful, this old guy can outperform countless audiophiles in detecting distortions and aberrations in frequency response. What I miss is the extreme high frequency but for the rest, I have training that most people don't.

In the case of this speaker, I properly found the narrow vertical directivity issue with listening first, and then with measurements. When I did the listening test, I only had the on-axis response. And even then, I did not look at it much before listening.

I am the only one that can combine listening tests and measurements to make sense out of both. This is invaluable and something you all can't do with just the measurements.

Subjective measurements do have variations to be sure but please don't throw the baby out with bath water.

I agree -- Amir hates my JBL 4319 (yet it measures sort of how I expected it to, so I suspect that it'll do better once it's in my room). It actually is fairly smooth except for a few blips and the treble and has a lot of bass (more than the HDI-3600). The treble is too hot and needs to be turned down, and the vertical dispersion is poor which means vertical positioning is critical and Amir didn't have the optimal stands for it.

The matching of subjective listening with accurate measurements is something that is invaluable. Stereophile and SoundStage have historically had separate people/teams working on the review vs. the measurements.

http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com
is a good resource. It hasn't been updated for a while, so I'm not sure how well it runs on Windows 10 and MacOS Catalina.

Where subjective comments run into problems are the target curve/tilt. Sean Olive when talking about room correction says:
In truth, the optimal in-room target curve may depend on the loudspeaker directivity and reflectivity of the listening room. If the room is acoustically dead with few reflections and/or the directivity of the loudspeaker is quite high, the in-room response will represent a higher proportion of the direct sound, which should be flat. Using a target curve with large downward tilt will make the loudspeaker sound too dull.

So for an un-EQ'd speaker, the ideal tilt may differ from room to room.
 

thefsb

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You're supposed to play your guitars--not let them collect dust
I kinda hate to say it but that's the problem. The dust on my guitar looks like it fell off me.
 

Francis Vaughan

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You're supposed to play your guitars--not let them collect dust. :) Then it's the fingerprint problem. Seriously, though, the guitar world is almost as nutz as high end audio. The 'historic replica' scene is particularly weird.
The difference between guitars and audio is that you never upgrade guitars. You just buy more.
 

napilopez

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I agree -- Amir hates my JBL 4319 (yet it measures sort of how I expected it to, so I suspect that it'll do better once it's in my room). It actually is fairly smooth except for a few blips and the treble and has a lot of bass (more than the HDI-3600). The treble is too hot and needs to be turned down, and the vertical dispersion is poor which means vertical positioning is critical and Amir didn't have the optimal stands for it.

The matching of subjective listening with accurate measurements is something that is invaluable. Stereophile and SoundStage have historically had separate people/teams working on the review vs. the measurements.

http://harmanhowtolisten.blogspot.com
is a good resource. It hasn't been updated for a while, so I'm not sure how well it runs on Windows 10 and MacOS Catalina.

Where subjective comments run into problems are the target curve/tilt. Sean Olive when talking about room correction says:


So for an un-EQ'd speaker, the ideal tilt may differ from room to room.

Thanks for bringing up those Olive comments, which I hadn't seen before but which he basically alludes to in his preference paper. There should be some flexibility with the slope of the target curve. How much it's hard to say, but it once again makes a good case for tone controls
 

richard12511

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Thanks for bringing up those Olive comments, which I hadn't seen before but which he basically alludes to in his preference paper. There should be some flexibility with the slope of the target curve. How much it's hard to say, but it once again makes a good case for tone controls

I wonder how this gels with the science that the same speakers are preferred regardless of room. It would seem to be somewhat at odds. If different curves are preferred in different rooms, then wouldn't that also mean that different speakers(that produce different curves) also be preferred?
 

thefsb

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I think I have eight or nine guitars here and only one is gloss. All of the others are satin finish front and back. Better to keep clean and better to play.
Agreed about the satin finish.

What I mean is that the guitar accumulates "dust" at a horrible rate while in use. This "dust" is presumably falling off me. And it's a good deal harder to clean the guitar than the loudspeaker cabinet. It has nooks and crannies that are hard to access under the strings and in the case of my .strandberg* the bridge/tuner just a dust magnet. Compressed air and a paint brush are perhaps my best bet.
 

thefsb

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Not true, I upgraded bridge pickup on my son's Strat, replaced stock with Seymour Duncan SSL-5 so it sounds more like Gilmour's Strat. ;)
Right. My Roland G-303 gained a locking vibrato.
 

GXAlan

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I wonder how this gels with the science that the same speakers are preferred regardless of room. It would seem to be somewhat at odds. If different curves are preferred in different rooms, then wouldn't that also mean that different speakers(that produce different curves) also be preferred?

I think there is also the smoothness of the curve that matters. It may be that speakers are preferred in different rooms are also ones that have superior smoothness than what is being compared.

Greg Timbers used to have a quote where he tried to capture the difference between the JBL and Revel house sound.

The 4367 is a good system for those who like the large Monitor format. It measures well, sounds detailed and musical but is lean in the bottom octave as are all of the post 1985 or so "Japan" product. The speed and excess excursion capacity of these systems makes them good candidates for EQ, or for the proper use of a subwoofer, say below 40 Hz. They do have a "live music" sound that is most difficult to achieve purely with direct radiators. If you are looking for an Audiophile loudspeaker with 3-dimensional imaging, a warm mellow midrange and no dynamics at all, look elsewhere. Without using the words Distilled Water you might look at another Harman brand if you are seeking elegant, luscious elevator music.

The live sound component I don’t have a quote for but has been summarized as follows:

Pretend you are walking through a pre-Covid shopping mall around Christmas Time. It’s loud, there is a lot of random background noise. In the distance, you hear music playing.

The SNR is poor and imaging is non existent.

BUT, you know instantly whether that music is a live band or a recording.

Greg Timbers attributed this to “dynamics.” The ability to reproduce these contrasts was a priority of his speaker designs. Develop speakers that sound more like live music, even at the expense of holographic imaging or smoothness was the classic JBL sound.

Greg Timbers goes further to explain:
As I mentioned, I believe that solid Dynamic behavior is most important to get lifelike sound. Dynamics require high efficiency since transducers are pitiful in energy conversion. I also believe that sound staging is extremely important. I think natural midrange and bass presentation precedes the treble range. Of course all things have to be balanced!

And

Parts are everything. The solidity and materials used in the enclosure, transducers are supremely important. So is the quality of the electronic components and circuit boards used in the crossover networks. That is one of the areas that measurements don't adequately represent. It is easy to hear the difference between two capacitors of different construction and materials, for example.

It is worth noting that Greg Timbers uses electronic crossovers for his personal systems. But this is where JBL invested a lot in custom transducers.

Finally,

Speakers have generally become smoother, more 3-dimensional and much smaller. This means that they are less dynamic on the whole and rather toy like compared to good stuff from the 60s and 70s. Unlike electronics, miniaturization is not a good thing with loudspeakers. There is no substitute for size and horsepower. Nothing much has changed with the laws of physics in the last 100 years so what it takes to make dynamic life-like sound is unchanged. There have been some advances in magnet materials and a bunch of progress in adhesives but not much else. The cost of a 70s system in today's economy would be considered unaffordable and the system would be deemed unnecessarily huge. The large highly efficient systems of old came at a time when 15 – 30 watts of power was the norm. Today's stuff would choke on those amplifiers. Now that power is cheap, size and efficiency has been thrown out the window because you can always apply more power. Unfortunately, more power does not make up for lack of efficiency. Today's speakers range between 0.1% to maybe 0.5% in efficiency. (On a good day) 60s and 70s stuff was more like 1% to 10%. With most of the losses gong to heat, turning up the power on a small system with small voice coils and poor heat management is definitely not equivalent to a large high efficient speaker.

It is true that the response of many of the old systems was a bit ragged and generally less attention was put in the crossover networks because simplicity generally means higher through-put. However, the big Altec's, JBL's, Klipsch's and Tannoys of the day would still fair well today with a little modernization of the enclosures and crossovers.

Today's multi-channel home theater setups let a bunch of small toy loudspeakers and a sub or two sound pretty big and impressive to the average Joe. I think speakers have mostly become a commodity and small size and price are what counts the most now. The few high-end brands left are struggling for market share in this age of ear buds.

So to summarize, JBLs didn’t care about directivity errors if it improves efficiency. That’s why they have a lot of big 15” woofer designs with vanishingly low distortion.

Importantly, Greg Timbers was let go from JBL and at least in the US, Revel speakers outsell JBL Synthesis speakers wildly. The market did NOT support the classic JBL sound. However market preferences and individual preferences can be different and both be scientifically based.
 

Promit

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Agreed about the satin finish.

What I mean is that the guitar accumulates "dust" at a horrible rate while in use. This "dust" is presumably falling off me. And it's a good deal harder to clean the guitar than the loudspeaker cabinet. It has nooks and crannies that are hard to access under the strings and in the case of my .strandberg* the bridge/tuner just a dust magnet. Compressed air and a paint brush are perhaps my best bet.
High five!
yqBvjNO.jpg
 

napilopez

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I wonder how this gels with the science that the same speakers are preferred regardless of room. It would seem to be somewhat at odds. If different curves are preferred in different rooms, then wouldn't that also mean that different speakers(that produce different curves) also be preferred?

I do not really see them to be contradictory results, though I do think there's some merit to your comments too.

What olive is essentially saying is that the ideal in-room response of a speaker will vary depending on how much reflected sound there is, whether that comes from the directivity of the speakers or the characteristics of the room.

The confusion stems from the fact that the predicted in-room curve is a mishmash of spatial and timbral qualities. Imagine you have two speakers that are perfectly flat on axis but have very different directivity patterns. Let's say speaker A's PIR follows the ideal target curve perfectly, but speaker B is a super wide-directivity design. Speaker B's PIR will probably be tilted up a bit from A's target curve. Yet the science suggests both will sound timbrally similar, but the latter will have a wider spatial presentation.

In that quote, Olive is talking about room correction. Room correction does not affect the directivity of the speaker, it affects the speaker's response as a whole. If you have a perfectly flat on axis speaker with very wide directivity and you tilt the response down to match the "ideal" target slope, chances are you'll end up 'darkening' the sound unpleasantly. By applying room correction to match the typical target response, what you're actually doing is tilting the direct sound downward.

That said, if frequency response and directivity are equally smooth, I can imagine some speakers sound better in certain rooms than others, depending on the listener/music/preferences.
 
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QMuse

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By applying room correction to match the typical target response, what you're actually doing is tilting the direct sound downward.

Well, if most of your room EQ is under 300-400Hz (as it should be!) and if you adjusted for target tonal balance (say 10dB slope over 20Hz-20kHz) by adjusting LF level without touching anything from 300-400Hz upwards you are pretty much leaving most of the direct sound intact, as sound below 300-400Hz is not very direct anyhow.
 
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napilopez

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Well, if most of your room EQ is under 300-400Hz (as it should be!) and you adjusted for target tonal balance (say 10dB slope over 20Hz-20kHz) by adjusting LF level without touching anything from 300-400Hz upwards you are pretty much leaving most of the direct sound intact, as sound below 300-400Hz is not very direct anyhow.

Yep, I was referring to typical full-range EQ, as I think that's what Olive was talking about in that quote since he mentioned reflectivity and a 'large downward tilt'
 

jhaider

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I wonder how this gels with the science that the same speakers are preferred regardless of room. It would seem to be somewhat at odds. If different curves are preferred in different rooms, then wouldn't that also mean that different speakers(that produce different curves) also be preferred?

Why? A speaker with a given FR and directivity will naturally yield different listening position measurements in different rooms: brighter in a more reflective room, darker and more closed in a heavily treated room, and so on.

I think the point is that room curves are heavily hyped today, but aren't necessarily what our ear-brains process in the midrange and treble.
 
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