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JBL HDI-3600 Speaker Review

richard12511

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If by "we" you mean "product design teams for speakers," then yes that's part of it, along with smooth off axis response.

This is a large part of the value in being able to see these spins, imo. The way I see it, different rooms don't change the target; they change the way in which the target is obscured. If we compare it to basketball, one room might be like trying to hit the 3 with drunk goggles on, and another room might be like trying to hit the 3 with no contacts(or glasses), but the target remains the same. Seeing a spin for the speaker you own before designing your EQ is kinda like putting your contacts on, and not having to wear drunk goggles before shooting your shot.


Without studying the measurements in detail, I would want to know the effects on the total sound. There is room to improve most passive loudspeakers by tailored active equalization based on a family of curves, because active EQ can effect changes passive components cannot. However, applying that EQ based solely on the on axis or listening window measurements is a mistake. Generally, I would say speaker EQ (midrange and treble) should be independent of the room. I am sure there are exceptions to that though.

I agree.
 

dinglehoser

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OK, got these bad boys set up now. (The review sample was mine.) My room is L-shaped (ugh), and the speakers are firing down the long section - about 11' across, 25' long. Speakers are toed in to cross slightly behind the LP, and are set about 20" from each sidewall and 10" from the front wall at the midline; LP is approx 9' away from the speaker plane. I'm running them full range, powered by a Nord One NC500/RME ADI-2 DAC/Roon. I have them angled up approximately 3 degrees to put the effective listening axis about halfway between the compression driver and the top woofer.

Some initial notes:

* There's nothing cheap looking about these speakers in person. Finish and general build quality is as good as my LS50s.
* ... except for the included carpet spikes, which are five cent Parts Express giveaways. C'mon, Harman!
* The speakers measure dead flat from about 700Hz up to 9kHz in this room. Like, it's literally a line sloping down by 1Hz per octave, +/- about 1Hz, with no evidence of the shelving seen in Amir's PIR and ER measurements.
* Bass starts rolling off around 41Hz, but I can ride a room mode to a flat response down to 32Hz after room correction.
* The dip at 10,500Hz can in fact be EQed out completely. +3dB, Q=5, 10,500Hz makes it disappear. The subjective change is very subtle, but I'm pretty sure I could ABX it.
* Speaking of subjective, to my ears, these are better in every conceivable way than the LS50s that preceded it. The sweet spot is much wider, the general presentation is much more neutral, and the power handling is something to behold. They never sound "loud," even when belting it out at a measured peak SPL of 115dBA (105 average). Imaging is surprisingly precise. Absolutely gut-punching dynamics.
* Amir is right about vertical positioning. Don't sit with your ears above the bottom of the waveguide. Other than this, they aren't too picky (at least they weren't for me).
* I'm not usually a proponent of running a sub without bass management. But these things have so much headroom, and the low end phase response is so reasonable, that running them full range with a sub crossed a bit above the published -6dB point makes sense. It literally took me one try to blend my Monolith 10.

That's all for now. I'm armed with opinions and a UMIK-1. AMA.
 

thewas

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* The speakers measure dead flat from about 700Hz up to 9kHz in this room. Like, it's literally a line sloping down by 1Hz per octave, +/- about 1Hz, with no evidence of the shelving seen in Amir's PIR and ER measurements.
Could you post those measurements here? Thank you.
 

dinglehoser

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I'll run some fresh uncorrected measurements tomorrow and post. Lots of room effects below about 600Hz, though.
 

GXAlan

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With heaping amount of bias without any published research behind it....
I don't think it's in any contrast to Dr. Toole's work -- it's just how Greg Timbers saw things as Chief Development Engineer for Harman Consumer in describing the differences between JBL and Revel, which is probably best captured by horn-loaded compression drivers or not, and probably why Dr. Toole wanted JBLs and Revel to have shared engineering meetings.

Dr. Toole first acknowledges different preferences:
https://www.harman.com/documents/AudioScience_0.pdf
It is probably correct to say that the majority of listeners find stereo to be pleasantly embellished if the room reflections are energetic. The sound tends to be open and spacious, with a good sense of depth, but specific images might be rather vague – in other words, rather like real concerts.

However, some listeners prefer a very specific, almost pinpoint, sense of image position. These people are attracted to highly directional horn and large panel loudspeakers. Similar effects can be achieved with other loudspeakers by attenuating early room reflections with large areas of acoustical absorbing material. Among these listeners are many recording engineers. Consequently, recording studios are often acoustically rather dead, and the loudspeakers directional (often horn loaded), or placed very close (so-called near-field listening).

And I probably add that some listeners have different preferences based upon the music (both content + how it was recorded).

and in his book, he touches upon dynamics of horn loaded systems:
Horn-loaded loudspeakers are very well suited to large home theater installations; they deliver high-level crescendos effortlessly, and their directional control minimizes the amount of sound converted into heat in absorbers—which translates into significantly higher overall efficiency. Figure 18.8b is an example of a loudspeaker that is admired equally by audiophile stereo traditionalists and home theater enthusiasts (with deep pockets!)
and
In very large rooms and in rooms where the customer feels a need for high sound levels much of the time, horn-loaded loudspeakers are recommended. Some of these offer sound quality competitive with the best available (see Figure 18.17b). With large woofers and compression-driver horns, the low distortion and an absence of power compression can lead to volume settings that put one’s hearing at risk and it still does not sound “loud.” With subwoofers of commensurate capability, music and movies become what I call “whole-body experiences” and they are very impressive.

This "effortlessness" is somewhat subjective, since Dr. Toole himself later writes that you just need "enough" amplification power. Likewise, the concept of having high volume settings yet it doesn't sound "loud" is a JBL characteristic with 15" woofers.
 

Wombat

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I don't think it's in any contrast to Dr. Toole's work -- it's just how Greg Timbers saw things as Chief Development Engineer for Harman Consumer in describing the differences between JBL and Revel, which is probably best captured by horn-loaded compression drivers or not, and probably why Dr. Toole wanted JBLs and Revel to have shared engineering meetings.

Dr. Toole first acknowledges different preferences:
https://www.harman.com/documents/AudioScience_0.pdf


And I probably add that some listeners have different preferences based upon the music (both content + how it was recorded).

and in his book, he touches upon dynamics of horn loaded systems:

and


This "effortlessness" is somewhat subjective, since Dr. Toole himself later writes that you just need "enough" amplification power. Likewise, the concept of having high volume settings yet it doesn't sound "loud" is a JBL characteristic with 15" woofers.
- and my 16 inch Altecs plus 500Hz CD horns. Not likely to be Harman-curve approved - no problem, here. Preference.
 
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skyfly

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I think a direct competitor to this JBL is Klipsch RF-7 III.

Both have horns, are 2.5 way, tall boy floor standing, and rear ported.
 

GXAlan

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I think a direct competitor to this JBL is Klipsch RF-7 III.

Both have horns, are 2.5 way, tall boy floor standing, and rear ported.

Yes, they are similar in concept and price and "heritage" but the Klipsch is less neutral than the JBL. With Klipsch, you do pay for "Assembled in the USA".

I found these measurements of the RF-7 III in comparison to the RF-7 II at this link:
https://medalux.webnode.sk/news/klipsch-rf-7-iii-americka-legenda-pokracuje/


1588778574521.png

1588778621436.png
 

aarons915

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Without studying the measurements in detail, I would want to know the effects on the total sound. There is room to improve most passive loudspeakers by tailored active equalization based on a family of curves, because active EQ can effect changes passive components cannot. However, applying that EQ based solely on the on axis or listening window measurements is a mistake. Generally, I would say speaker EQ (midrange and treble) should be independent of the room. I am sure there are exceptions to that though.

This is precisely what Dr. Toole recommends though but only with a CTA-2034 style measurement so you can ensure that the directivity is good enough for EQ. I've had good results EQ'ing the listening window while ensuring the EQ has a positive effect on the early reflections. Are you saying there is a better way to EQ above the transition frequency?
 

jhaider

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This is precisely what Dr. Toole recommends though but only with a CTA-2034 style measurement so you can ensure that the directivity is good enough for EQ. I've had good results EQ'ing the listening window while ensuring the EQ has a positive effect on the early reflections. Are you saying there is a better way to EQ above the transition frequency?

I look at the horizontal polar map before I look at the listening window, to see what not to touch.
 
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amirm

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I don't think it's in any contrast to Dr. Toole's work -- it's just how Greg Timbers saw things as Chief Development Engineer for Harman Consumer in describing the differences between JBL and Revel, which is probably best captured by horn-loaded compression drivers or not, and probably why Dr. Toole wanted JBLs and Revel to have shared engineering meetings.
Greg was part of a huge fight with the Revel group. That is motivating comments like Revel speakers being good for " luscious elevator music. " In contrast, the Revel folks would say that the only thing that JBL speakers were good for was to play loud.

Horn-loaded speakers can sound excellent if they follow the science with measurements and importantly, controlled listening tests. Without it, another gray-haired designer's opinion of his speakers vs competition has no value. Every speaker designer talks like that.
 

GXAlan

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Greg was part of a huge fight with the Revel group. That is motivating comments like Revel speakers being good for " luscious elevator music. " In contrast, the Revel folks would say that the only thing that JBL speakers were good for was to play loud.

Horn-loaded speakers can sound excellent if they follow the science with measurements and importantly, controlled listening tests. Without it, another gray-haired designer's opinion of his speakers vs competition has no value. Every speaker designer talks like that.

Thanks for the insider insight. I can definitely see a losing battle when you are arguing with a division that has more sales and consistency of results. It’s a shame they couldn’t work together to create two different lines of speakers to target different audiences. I guess the JBL Bluetooth line is where it ended up.

I have always thought that all of the JBL’s were subject to the same level of scrutiny and measurements as Revel’s with differences in “voicing” being a main difference. (The tilt)

Have you subjectively listened to the SAM1HF/2LF combo or the SCL-3 in walls? Short of the K2/Everest, those are supposedly excellent speakers that focus on sound rather than having constraints like “looks vintage” or has Japanese market friendly aesthetics.
 
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amirm

amirm

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Thanks for the insider insight. I can definitely see a losing battle when you are arguing with a division that has more sales and consistency of results. It’s a shame they couldn’t work together to create two different lines of speakers to target different audiences. I guess the JBL Bluetooth line is where it ended up.
The M2, 4367 and LSR active speakers were result of collaboration. In one of the many re-orgs the two groups landed together which softened the political lines.
 

tuga

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Thanks for the insider insight. I can definitely see a losing battle when you are arguing with a division that has more sales and consistency of results. It’s a shame they couldn’t work together to create two different lines of speakers to target different audiences.

Harman couldn't be preaching one thing and then have one of its companies build another.

Have you subjectively listened to the SAM1HF/2LF combo or the SCL-3 in walls? Short of the K2/Everest, those are supposedly excellent speakers that focus on sound rather than having constraints like “looks vintage” or has Japanese market friendly aesthetics.

I've been considering in-wall speakers for when I finally settle.
The JBL SCL-4s look interesting as do the Revel W890s & W990s which produce really nice-looking Spins:

GriEiD1.png




One thing I wonder is, if the frequency reponse of in-wall speakers is to be flat at 30°, since they will most likely go in a wall that is perpendicular to the listener and can't be toe'd in, how can one determine this from a Spinorama?
 
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amirm

amirm

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Have you subjectively listened to the SAM1HF/2LF combo or the SCL-3 in walls?
We had the SAM series at our older showroom at Madrona. They sounded excellent when paired with Harman ARCOS room EQ. You can see them in this shot (normally behind a screen):

i-HQ2S7wS-L.jpg


They are the top set of speakers. They easily outperformed the much more expensive and larger Wisdom planer magnetic speakers below them.

Later on we upgraded the room to JBL M2, it was at a whole different level. :)
 
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amirm

amirm

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Harman couldn't be preaching one thing and then have one of its companies build another.
Sounds like you have never worked for a big company.....
 

BYRTT

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.....One thing I wonder is, if the frequency reponse of in-wall speakers is to be flat at 30°, since they will most likely go in a wall that is perpendicular to the listener and can't be toe'd in, how can one determine this from a Spinorama?
Look in that W890 spin how its omni up to 900Hz area and not before 9kHz area directivity index is passing 5dB point, below spinorama example looks borring but probably sounds great :) a theoretical perfect omni 20Hz-20kHz all curves are overlaid each other.

Tuga_Omni-spinorama.png
 

Ron Texas

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Preference Rating
SCORE: 4.9
SCORE w/sub: 7.1

Sensitivity: 90dB
Unless you need the extra 4dB (for movies I would say so, music shouldn't need it), the bookshelf HDI-1600 with 2x $1000 subs would cost the same and be better.

First off thanks for the work you have done with processing the calculations and making them accessible.

I was wondering if you could expand on the idea that standmounts with subs are a better choice for music than a floor stander from the same series.

There is one school of thought that the standmount/sub setup is the most cost effective. The other is a 6" mid/low driver is very limiting even when relieved of low frequencies with bass management.

Since the limiting factor is the SPL level at which the mid/low driver distorts, I wonder if the standmounts with subs are going to work in all but very large rooms with listeners who like it really loud.
 

MZKM

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First off thanks for the work you have done with processing the calculations and making them accessible.

I was wondering if you could expand on the idea that standmounts with subs are a better choice for music than a floor stander from the same series.

There is one school of thought that the standmount/sub setup is the most cost effective. The other is a 6" mid/low driver is very limiting even when relieved of low frequencies with bass management.

Since the limiting factor is the SPL level at which the mid/low driver distorts, I wonder if the standmounts with subs are going to work in all but very large rooms with listeners who like it really loud.
We all have read that relieving the bass frequencies results in a bit more max SPL, the question though is this true. Can the bookshelf woofer play a 200Hz note louder when it isn’t also playing a 40Hz note? I don’t recall ever seeing anyone test this.

I have never run into issues with music volume being loud enough or not, I only run into this issue when playing certain movies (and the odd tv show, not a “show” show, but like a game show or something). I usually have my volume control at least -10dB for music relative to what I have it at for movies.

Since the bass extension is so important in the score, and since most subwoofer will dig deeper than towers, it should be true that in most instances the bookshelf+sub is better. However, this is also dependent on the user, as to get good bass they would have to do ideally do the sub crawl as well as level & phase match the sub (I can’t believe REL subs only have a polarity switch). And then, they also would have dual subs, as 1 sub will have more room mode issue than 2 speakers playing full range.
 
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Ron Texas

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We all have read that relieving the bass frequencies results in a bit more max SPL, the question though is this true. Can the bookshelf woofer play a 200Hz note louder when it isn’t also playing a 40Hz note? I don’t recall ever seeing anyone test this.

The only thing I can say with certainty is the opening tracks on the album "The Haunted Man" cause very large excursions of the driver on my LS50's unless they are fed with a 24 db/octave high pass filter of 90 hz or higher. It's easy to confirm as the difference can be seen. It doesn't prove a 200 hz note can be played louder. Fairly high SPL's can be reached as the room is only 14x18x8' plus a small hallway which can be closed off.

I thought the difference in volume settings for movies vs music, at least in JRiver, is due to how JRiver does the mixdown from 5.1 to stereo.
 
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