- Thread Starter
- #161
Please be warned, cosmetically the ZVX are a disappointment. I ordered the black version, and the coating started peeling off within 48 hours. They look terrible now, but that does not affect the sound.
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IEM's - Where do diminishing returns start - cost wise? $10, $15, $20, $30, $50, $200, etc, etc
- Thread starter OK1
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1337wafflezz
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So are you being serious though when you say something like the ZVX destroys an AKG 702?
I mean that’s kinda been my experience too where the cheap Truthear Gate with deeper insertion tips runs circles around my HD650. But I almost feel gaslit in a way. Like it’s some kinda fluke or my ears are broken. Like I can’t trust my brain lol and I need some audiophile with 20+ years of experience to tell me what an idiot I am and why.
If it was between Gate and K702. I'd take Gate. That's comparing an average headphone to a very good IEM IMHO. Other headphone IEM/headphone parings may have different outcomes.
- Thread Starter
- #164
Ok - Day 2 with the ARTTI T10. Now that I have been able to use the best fitting ear tips from the ZVX, on the T10, I have comfort sorted, no longer feeling any pain in the ear canal, and am able to get a good seal. I do have to push them in a fair bit, to get this seal, not too far in, but definitely far enough that they fit, like a ball into the outer socket of my ear canal, and stay there. Really great attenuation from any external noise, such as my laptops noisy fan., which I can no longer hear.
Now I can hear the somewhat boosted bass, a lot more clearly, and for me it may be a bit too much, when the IEM is properly sealed. But nothing totally unbearable, with a bit of EQ, and proper management of loudness, I think the worst of what I consider is significant bass, can be tamed. Only way for me to tell if my assertion on the bass is true, is to listen to a variety of reference tracks, which I have not done. This impression is based on listening to spoken word on Youtube, So we'll see. Will come back to add any further opinions should this perception change. Now it sounds warm, clear but Bottom end solid. Definitely not fatiguing in the top end - listening to "Where is the Love" - Black Eyed Peas. Like a Sub is in the speakers, very solid. The one thing that is clear is this IEM has more than enough bass, far more than enough bass, when you establish a proper seal. Too much of a seal, and the bass is too much.
So balancing insertion depth - to get the seal correct but not too claustrophobic, with loudness, and with EQ. is a fine art. When these three come together, it's really good. revealing without being fatiguing.
But this should not be a surprise, cos its a closed design, no vents. Slight easing of the earpieces less deep into the ear canal, with volume adjustment, and some roll off of the bass, helps bring things to a more balanced rendition. If the track has bottom end, this IEM will deliver it in a massive presentation of bass, with a tight seal, the bass is excessive. Bass heads will love this. The bass on this is way ahead the quantity and quality of the bass on the KZ ZVX. Very very clean, and clear, and definitely more than anyone would need. Far more. Deeper bass, more defined bass. Voices sound so natural, maybe I am getting used to them, but the stereo, is now cohesive, the excessive separation is gone.
I moved the T10 eartips over to the ZVX, to get a better seal, and comparing them again, no contest, the T10 is far more natural, i.e the integration of bass, mids, and highs, is improved, warmer, less fatiguing than the ZVX, tighter attacks and decays. Hard to go back to listening to the ZVX, which no longer has the same authority. Yes that is the word, T10 is a reference grade listening device, reminds me of video and photography, the background of anything you listen to is black, pitch black, so everything is painted on that surface of black and is so easy to hear. A certain grunginess that the ZVX added is gone - Pretty shocked that I am not getting any sibilance or harshness on the high end from the T10, just clean, non fatiguing. Maybe cos I had been using the ZVX for a while, so the T10's sound darker, not as strident. The transients are more accurate on the T10, much better able to distinguish the texture of audio, i.e things that sound soft like vocals, and warm strings, and things that have prominent attacks, like an electronic drum. or snare rim hit. I think every IEM will have its own signature, and who knows what FLAT is? What I can say is the T10 gives me a much better distinction between the elements in the song, texture, placement, tone, distance, the separation that I thought was to much, cos I had been listening to the ZVX, is now something that is highly perfect, and I would not have it any other way.
So T10 with ZVX's largest tips - marriage made in heaven. Please note that there are two versions of the ZVX, the earlier one came with foam tips, mine are black silicone
Now I can hear the somewhat boosted bass, a lot more clearly, and for me it may be a bit too much, when the IEM is properly sealed. But nothing totally unbearable, with a bit of EQ, and proper management of loudness, I think the worst of what I consider is significant bass, can be tamed. Only way for me to tell if my assertion on the bass is true, is to listen to a variety of reference tracks, which I have not done. This impression is based on listening to spoken word on Youtube, So we'll see. Will come back to add any further opinions should this perception change. Now it sounds warm, clear but Bottom end solid. Definitely not fatiguing in the top end - listening to "Where is the Love" - Black Eyed Peas. Like a Sub is in the speakers, very solid. The one thing that is clear is this IEM has more than enough bass, far more than enough bass, when you establish a proper seal. Too much of a seal, and the bass is too much.
So balancing insertion depth - to get the seal correct but not too claustrophobic, with loudness, and with EQ. is a fine art. When these three come together, it's really good. revealing without being fatiguing.
But this should not be a surprise, cos its a closed design, no vents. Slight easing of the earpieces less deep into the ear canal, with volume adjustment, and some roll off of the bass, helps bring things to a more balanced rendition. If the track has bottom end, this IEM will deliver it in a massive presentation of bass, with a tight seal, the bass is excessive. Bass heads will love this. The bass on this is way ahead the quantity and quality of the bass on the KZ ZVX. Very very clean, and clear, and definitely more than anyone would need. Far more. Deeper bass, more defined bass. Voices sound so natural, maybe I am getting used to them, but the stereo, is now cohesive, the excessive separation is gone.
I moved the T10 eartips over to the ZVX, to get a better seal, and comparing them again, no contest, the T10 is far more natural, i.e the integration of bass, mids, and highs, is improved, warmer, less fatiguing than the ZVX, tighter attacks and decays. Hard to go back to listening to the ZVX, which no longer has the same authority. Yes that is the word, T10 is a reference grade listening device, reminds me of video and photography, the background of anything you listen to is black, pitch black, so everything is painted on that surface of black and is so easy to hear. A certain grunginess that the ZVX added is gone - Pretty shocked that I am not getting any sibilance or harshness on the high end from the T10, just clean, non fatiguing. Maybe cos I had been using the ZVX for a while, so the T10's sound darker, not as strident. The transients are more accurate on the T10, much better able to distinguish the texture of audio, i.e things that sound soft like vocals, and warm strings, and things that have prominent attacks, like an electronic drum. or snare rim hit. I think every IEM will have its own signature, and who knows what FLAT is? What I can say is the T10 gives me a much better distinction between the elements in the song, texture, placement, tone, distance, the separation that I thought was to much, cos I had been listening to the ZVX, is now something that is highly perfect, and I would not have it any other way.
So T10 with ZVX's largest tips - marriage made in heaven. Please note that there are two versions of the ZVX, the earlier one came with foam tips, mine are black silicone
- Thread Starter
- #165
I have owned the K702's for almost 10 years. My thoughts are this.
1. Competition has caused the Asian designers and manufacturers, to up their game. So many players in the market.
2. Knowledge about hearing, and credit to so many clever people @ Harman, and other researchers, each year we know more.
3. Time has enabled even more trial and error, almost like a kind of human driven AI, where even though we may not fully understand all aspects of hearing, we know more about what sounds right, even if we do not know exactly why, there are invasive experiments that cannot be done on human beings, so we are limited to anecdotal observations, to an extent. We cannot measure exactly what each human being is hearing., and our ability to describe what we hear is not an exact science. It is not as easy as getting reading glasses. Not yet.
4. Technology has improved - better drivers. Also based on better testing equipment.
5. A huge market of people using headphones and IEM's cos of smartphones.
6. Streaming and personal listening lend themselves to an even greater number of people using headphones, than ever before, and voice conversations add to this demand, e.g those who use headphones/IEMs at work, on calls and conferences, or socially.
7. The accuracy of our modern DACs, is making it easier to highlight any weaknesses in headphones/IEM's cos the DAC is no longer the weak link (if you choose the right DAC - e.g the CX 31993 based DACs I would not recommend cos the one I bought had issues with its sonics - the frequency response and clarity was all over the place)
So in conclusion, I have to accept - we are living in a different era. For example the K702 has nowhere near the bass accuracy of the T10, and is not as accurate. And I recall years and years of struggling with getting the right placement cos it is easy to move them forward or backwards on the head, or closer or more distant to the ears, and every one of these moves changes the frequency response, so I never got it right. And for years I was struggling with all kinds of headphone EQ correction products, did exhaustive demos - I must have used no less that 13 of these products - once did an exhaustive review, and tried to use crossfeed, to improve the sound.
WIth the T10's and the ZVX, I'm using very little, to enhance them.
I have no headphone correction products in the signal path, only 2 layers of EQ (Layer 1 for IEM specific correction, and Layer 2 is an optional tilt EQ, to boost the bass when I'm not listening with a perfect air seal), and a stereo narrowing software - to improve the extreme stereo of listening on headphones.
Clarity and accuracy on the T10's beat the K702's. Period.
Until recently, with the availability of entry level over the ear headphone products like the HifiMan HE400SE, one would have had to shell out hundreds or over a thousand bucks for a good planar headphone. Now you can begin the journey into planar magnetics for $70 max with the T10 IEM.
Ultimately a lot of this is about money - the AKG's, Sennheisers, Sony's, Shure, Ultimate Ears, are better structured and have deeper pockets and investors, to put in the full wrap around of support, manufacturing consistency, and brand promotion, as well as relationships with the audio magazines, like Stereophile, Sound on Sound, etc, and in teh mainstream media, to push their products. Yeah it is about money. The Chinese upstarts have a lot of work to do to get their brands accepted in the mainstream, so for now its hobbyists and friends of hobbyists, via word of mouth, who benefit from the emerging industry of Chinese designed head listening products. We are still far from the day, when these businesses have the organisation and money to advertise in mainstream media. The moment that ever happens, the game is over.
The AKG's are living on past glory, with very little innovation, in my opinion - it's mostly marketing driven. I had seriously considered getting a Sennheiser HD600 or HD650 or one of the newer 6 series over the ear headphones, to upgrade my listening from the AKG K702. But no more. value for money, and even though I have never listened to an HD600, my mind says - that was designed over 10 years ago, more like 15 or more years ago, so sorry it cannot compete, with things like a T10. Technology has moved on.
I must be brutally honest though - we need a definitive solution to getting IEM's to fit properly. All IEM's I have used have been a bit hit or miss, in this area. So IEM's have a bit of a learning curve and are obviously NOT for everyone, who is keen about accurate critical listening, cos a consistent fit is not easy to achieve each time one puts them on. And they do not stay in the same exact position, leading to the need to occasionally adjust the insertion depth. That variability in the listening experience, needs a revolutionary solution.
I also think whatever solution is available to establish a proper fit, also needs an easy way to adjust the distance between the drivers and our ears, without having to change the nozzle/ear tip insertion depth. Me thinking aloud. The fit is important so one does not have to adjust the placement in the ear - how to do this for every different canal shape and size, is a huge opportunity in the market. And a solution to vary the distance of the drivers from the ear, will have an impact on frequency responses, so each person - by varying this distance can dial in their own preferred frequency response.
- Thread Starter
- #166
I really would not recommend the ZVX, unless the buyer could not afford any better. My suspicion is there are other products in the sub $25 range, that may do a better job. For one the paint issue on the ZVX - is a No No.
I think there will be better sounding more accurate balanced single dynamic driver IEM's., that are better than the ZVX.
At this time, I am extremely satisfied with the Artti T10, so I do not have an immediate plan to get another single DD IEM, but in the long term, I would still like to get one, to replace the ZVX. This opinion is after listening to the T10, and I cannot go back to the kind of quality I admired in the ZVX.
The ZVX is superb, until you listen to something better.
I suspect that there will be some really good IEM's in the $25 or less price bracket, but I no longer have the budget to invest in this discovery, to find find out which of these budget single dynamic driver IEMs are the best.
Dazerdoreal
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Personally I didnt listen to it yet but the Truthear Gate has a flawless tuning up to 10khz (in the "matter of taste" range).
From an audio science perspective, you are not insane.
It is just way easier (and cheaper) nowadays to build an almost perfect IEM than an almost perfect Over-Ear. Over-Ears tend to have a bigger soundstage though, the bass impact feels different and many people dont like to put things into their ear.
Curupira
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Once you free yourself from the conception that audio has to have intangible, "magic" aspects to it that scale with price and unobtanium new technologies, assertions like cheap iems being better OE start seeming perfectly plausible.
As said by the former post, tuning iems is way easier than over ears due to lack of complicated resonances and different materials. The main difficulty is reconstructing a good htrf curve, as there'll be no pinna interactions: on OE there are still some, although of course lesser than with speakers. But once a good personal target is known to you, the inherent technical and objective aspects of IEMs will make OE headphones seem like vintage devices. I'm talking about exceedingly low distortion figures (due to very small transistors), much better extension on both ends, no weird dips and quirks on the FR to mess with tonality perception, and superb isolation, with sound being driven directly and very closely to your ears. All that, summed up with minimum phase, means that you'll be hearing the entirety of the information the source has to give you.
In this sense, I find IEMs to be much more detailed than other mediums, albeit not as natural as speakers when considering soundstage, bass impact etc., and OE just being a more confortable middle term between those two.
- Thread Starter
- #169
Absolutely, IEM's are not for everyone. The learning curve is a lot more involved than Over the Ear headphones. And ear canals do take a while to adapt.Personally I didnt listen to it yet but the Truthear Gate has a flawless tuning up to 10khz (in the "matter of taste" range).
From an audio science perspective, you are not insane.
It is just way easier (and cheaper) nowadays to build an almost perfect IEM than an almost perfect Over-Ear. Over-Ears tend to have a bigger soundstage though, the bass impact feels different and many people dont like to put things into their ear.
Here's my hope for anyone who can afford to, is a collection of a few listening devices
1. One good single DD dynamic driver IEM.
2. One good planar magnetic IEM.
3. One good multi driver IEM (e.g multiple DD's, Hybrid, or ALL BA) - this is optional
4. One good over the ear planar magnetic headphone. (I'd hope the HifiMan HE400SE would be about the most affordable decent example for those on a budget, of course one can spend thousands on other products)
5. One good dynamic over the ear headphone.
Truth be told, the only reason to have this many is to enable comparison, and be able to listen extensively at home, to one's collection of reference music, across various devices, to learn the intricacies of each one, as part of the personal learning curve. Fortunately at today's prices, the cost of this extensive set, becomes more affordable (barring any new global disaster that sends prices skyrocketing up).
Sadly one may have to kiss a few frogs 1st, to find the king in the bunch, cos all the reviews and graphs in the world will not tell you how these will sound in your own ears. Furthermore choice of tips, and placement in the ear, can have huge changes to how an ear phone sounds, and that kind of personal customisation, which is important, can only be evaluated personally.
Tell
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Learning curve? What is it to learn? Just put them in your ears and listen
Personally I just got a pair of 7Hz Zero 2 and a Jcally JM20 costing me around 40 euro in total and with just a slight of EQ this is what one would call "endgame". Don't see any reason to get something else really, not much hassle at all and nothing to learn. Well except maybe that EQing if you want to do some nit picking, but as an audiophile the EQ is one of the fundamental things to learn really so no problem there.
herr.jemine
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I started with zero2 and was hooked on what else was available. I can assure you that the T10 has more to offer in all areas - more resolution, more details, etc.
I don't know what high-quality single DD IEMs have to offer, but I fear that they will only be on the level of budget planar IEMs for significantly more money.
My Zero2 is now too dull for me. They still sound good in their spectrum, but they simply lack what planar IEMs can offer.
I have a few decent over-ears (HD 6XX, Sundara, K712 Pro, fidelio x2hr) but I prefer the sound of the MP145 - more details and excellent soundstage without EQ, easy to drive
I've bought a lot of budget IEMs and a few up to around €300 so I can hear what they can do for myself - I'm done with budget single DD IEMs, I'd like to hear the final audio A5000 or the IE 600 to compare.For me I can say that the planar technology is definitely better, the multi-BA of the KZ AS24 also has its strengths, but you can only hear HQ material with them, bad recordings sound terrible.
With the MP145 everything sounds great somehow.
I don't know what high-quality single DD IEMs have to offer, but I fear that they will only be on the level of budget planar IEMs for significantly more money.
My Zero2 is now too dull for me. They still sound good in their spectrum, but they simply lack what planar IEMs can offer.
I have a few decent over-ears (HD 6XX, Sundara, K712 Pro, fidelio x2hr) but I prefer the sound of the MP145 - more details and excellent soundstage without EQ, easy to drive
I've bought a lot of budget IEMs and a few up to around €300 so I can hear what they can do for myself - I'm done with budget single DD IEMs, I'd like to hear the final audio A5000 or the IE 600 to compare.For me I can say that the planar technology is definitely better, the multi-BA of the KZ AS24 also has its strengths, but you can only hear HQ material with them, bad recordings sound terrible.
With the MP145 everything sounds great somehow.
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Tell
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Those T10 seems to have higher distortion and a bit elevated treble. So you could just take those Zero2 and EQ the treble to get rid of that dullness. I'd say that's the advantage of something with very little distortion and lots of headroom, you can just EQ to your hearts content
herr.jemine
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I don't like EQ, the measurement says the T10 has distortions blabla, put the thing in your ears and you'll no longer want to use the Zero2..
all these Measurements are absolutely overrated, and partly not comparable with human hearing, they can only show a certain direction, it is not possible to represent the sound stage or the imaging - that's my opinion!
Amir suggests increasing the bass with EQ for the MP145, I also thought at first that there was a lack of bass, the only problem is when the ear tips don't seal properly, with proper sealing the bass and sub-bass are perfect, so much for measurement!
I think these measurements are totally overrated, they are not human ears, I buy the stuff and only trust my ears, it's that simple.
I have the T10, the Timeless AE and the MP145 (money is not the problem, I'm slowly working my way up, but everything is still within reason, I want to hear about 2-3 IEMs per class myself to get an idea).
I can say that I no longer want to listen to the Zero2 any more. I only have them for comparison - like all the other budget DD IEMs.
My over-ears need a lot of EQ to get anywhere near the MP145, that only works with a desktop amplifier, I can also do that with my apogee groove, but then the battery on my smartphone is empty in 45 minutes (with eq) ^^
all these Measurements are absolutely overrated, and partly not comparable with human hearing, they can only show a certain direction, it is not possible to represent the sound stage or the imaging - that's my opinion!
Amir suggests increasing the bass with EQ for the MP145, I also thought at first that there was a lack of bass, the only problem is when the ear tips don't seal properly, with proper sealing the bass and sub-bass are perfect, so much for measurement!
I think these measurements are totally overrated, they are not human ears, I buy the stuff and only trust my ears, it's that simple.
I have the T10, the Timeless AE and the MP145 (money is not the problem, I'm slowly working my way up, but everything is still within reason, I want to hear about 2-3 IEMs per class myself to get an idea).
I can say that I no longer want to listen to the Zero2 any more. I only have them for comparison - like all the other budget DD IEMs.
My over-ears need a lot of EQ to get anywhere near the MP145, that only works with a desktop amplifier, I can also do that with my apogee groove, but then the battery on my smartphone is empty in 45 minutes (with eq) ^^
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Tell
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Ah okay you're in that camp, then I won't bother.
herr.jemine
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that's nice, such nonsense, when I only had the Zero2 I also thought they were the best IEMs in the world and endgame, sound like my HD 6xx only as an IEM, but that's not endgame.. it's that simple - the stage doesn't get any better with EQ -
Listen to other IEMs yourself before you start with the camp crap
Listen to other IEMs yourself before you start with the camp crap
Tell
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Except that I know the power of EQ tuning while you don't. If the distortion is under audible thresholds what other than the frequency response is it really that can affect how we perceive the sound from a pair of IEMs?
- Thread Starter
- #177
I really admire what you have said here, and your experience with both some really celebrated over ears and a very respected planar IEM the MP145.
One thing I can immediately agree on is - going from a budget single dynamic driver(DD) IEM, having listened to the Artti T10, I do not want to go back to any "budget" DD. Unfortunately it will take me quite a whole to decide which is the next single DD IEM, I could buy, to get a good example of how a decent single DD, should sound.
In theory, if we could find the perfect substance, as a transducer with zero mass and infinite stiffness (i.e no flex, no distortion), this would form the ideal basis for a single DD IEM. This is what makes a single DD attractive to me, it is one of the closest models to the ideal. And this is what I also find positive about planar magnetics, cos I view them also as having one driver. A single planar magnetic driver. Both the single DD and single planar magnetic, avoid crossovers, and I love that. I come from the professional/hobbyist studio world and live audio world, where unfortunately we have had to accept multiple driver speakers, with cross overs, as the unavoidable compromise, cos there are no materials discovered so far, which will deliver in a single driver config, for the kind of loudness needed by home or live events.
You touch on something else that is very very interesting - the objective of the listener. Without any disrespect to either, there are two broad objectives out there.
1. The listener who wants their transducer to help them enjoy all of their music., and somewhat hide certain imperfections. This is something you admire about the MP145.
2. On the other hand, you mention an IEM like the KZ AS24, which is best listened to with HQ material, and makes bad recordings sound terrible. Now that is exactly what I want!, and I so love how you expressed this. My objective for the listening devices that made me start a few recent threads, including this one, was a desire for accurate, highly resolving, analytical - show me all the warts. I'm using listening to learn from what others have produced, so I want to hear every detail, not using a bright frequency approach which some would regard as detailed, but for me I just need clear, non hyped, show me exactly what is in the music/audio. Add nothing and take nothing away.
I think it is optimal, that when we hear opinions, reviews, feedback from human listeners, we understand where each of us is coming from, and why opinions about gear may differ. Cos what each of us is searching for may not be the same thing, so opinions are based on our end goal.
So I might be really interested in the KZ AS24, or IEMs that deliver a similar analytical result. Thanks for opening up this aspect of opinions and reviews. If I may add, rarely do we know in which of the camps, most reviewers belong. The former who want forgiving listening, reminds me of the HiFi/Audiophile world, and the kind of speakers people love when monitoring during the recording phase, which will make their instruments sound easy to listen to, and viby. The latter reminds me of the studio mixing world, where many prefer the more straight laced approach. I remember one budget studio speaker model called the Truth.
I wish every review could be qualified by the preference of the reviewer, between these two kinds of preferences. Some want to be able to have both - clear as well as enjoyable, which would be a third target.
herr.jemine
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I use EQ on my over-ears, the HD6XX just sound like crap without EQ, the Sundaras really come alive with EQ, but it's all just fiddling anyway!
I've tried EQ on IEMs but I find that the small drivers don't handle it well, you can't save the Zero2 with it!
A change in driver technology, e.g. by using multi-BA or Planar, just changes everything, without any EQ, try it yourself without being biased
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the most effective thing one can do to in obtaining the goal of truly genuine hi fi at the lowest cost is to break your connection with advertising and its associated implanted false beliefs. Not easy that.
herr.jemine
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