Diminishing Returns, Speakers

[WillBrink]

Of all the gear we have, I'd expect speakers to be the more difficult to pin as to diminishing returns kick in and your no longer paying for performance. Example of passive 2 way monitor/stand mount, top quality drivers, X over, well built and designed cabinets, with a profit margin for the seller, I put diminishing returns on $ at 2k, give or take a few. After that, paying for brand, resale value, fancy looks and paint and such, provenance, and other non performance related things.

To be clear I have no issues with that, and I will spend more than 2k for those non performance related attributes. People should buy what makes them happy, and part of that is often unrelated to performance. I have Kimber 8TC speaker wire because I like the way it looks, I have some high end watches because I dig them, not because they tell time better than a $50 Timex.

Would put the number higher or lower or agree with my assessment? Tower speakers may be more difficult, but for me, I'd place it at 5k ish.

If one adds actives, that's another discussion. I'm talking passives only.

 

[melomane13]

For 2 way speaker, the point is at 600$
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ce-dbr-62-bookshelf-speaker-review-jpg.55712/

 

[coonmanx]

Yeah, I was going to say that you can buy quality speakers for a lot less than 2K. But each to his own and people can budget however much they like for speakers. There are tons of speakers out there these days. Some may come in kits, etc. I am currently listening to a pair of speakers (Scott 166) that I got off of Ebay for around $150. Of course they are used speakers. But they sound very good.

 

[Sal1950]

For 2 way speaker, the point is at 600$
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ce-dbr-62-bookshelf-speaker-review-jpg.55712/

Agreed. There's no reason in hell 2 quality drivers and a few crossover components should cost over 5 or 6 hundred.
OTOH if a $1k worth of expensive exotic hardwoods is important to you, that's understandable.
You do have to look at them even more than listen. LOL

 

[kemmler3D]

Tend to agree that the benefit of moving from $600 to $1000 is more than the benefit of moving from $1000 to $2K or even higher.

It's hard to pin down "diminishing returns" exactly, because you have to define "returns".

You can pick one metric like frequency response linearity, THD, or even preference score, and calculate the improvement per dollar.

Or, you can just say things like "twice as good for twice the money" - which means you're doing it subjectively. That is tricky because one man's "twice as good" is another's "ten times as good". But ultimately, that is what we are paying for, so the concept is slightly slippery...

 

[robh36062]

Diminishing returns?

I have more than one system at home and actually spent more time listening to a rig I had at work. Had an old pair of JBL 4208's powered with Urie amps and a Polk subwoofer running off a Sony CD player and then an I pod. Retired now still have it. I can listen to that all day. Is it the best I have no. So where do you stop? Only you can decide.

Also depends what kind of low end are you expecting? I can't see stand mount without a sub. They just can't do much below 50Hz many even higher. Even most floor mounts can benefit from use of a subwoofer.

I have had quite a bit of fun doing comparisons between systems and lower cost speakers can surprise you. Shop around, hope you have some brick and mortars about so you can compare head to head.

Rob

 

[Sal1950]

Tend to agree that the benefit of moving from $600 to $1000 is more than the benefit of moving from $1000 to $2K or even higher.

It's hard to pin down "diminishing returns" exactly, because you have to define "returns".

You can pick one metric like frequency response linearity, THD, or even preference score, and calculate the improvement per dollar.

Or, you can just say things like "twice as good for twice the money" - which means you're doing it subjectively. That is tricky because one man's "twice as good" is another's "ten times as good". But ultimately, that is what we are paying for, so the concept is slightly slippery...

For sure, we all know that no two speakers sound alike with a varying blend of strengths and weaknesses.
So the choice boils down to preference and what attributes most flip your switches.
It's hard to say how much can be gained by going from $500 to $1k but I believe for sure once you've passed that
point returns have fallen off a cliff sonicly. I've heard a couple $300 monkey boxes that made my jaw drop when correctly
set up.

Depends what kind of low end are you expecting? I can't see stand mount without a sub.

Contrary to popular opinion, a single 5 or 6 inch driver cant do bass. LOL

 

[Penelinfi]

Depends what you need when it comes to "bass". If you need loud at 20Hz, then yes you will need more driver.
If you need 30Hz + at "reasonable" volume, then you can be satisfied with a pair of good quality 5-6.5" woofers. Maybe leaning towards the larger size of course. But a Scanspeak Revelator can flap quite nicely in smaller spaces at levels where the treble is too loud.
A Purifi 6.5 even more so

 

[Sokel]

The only meaningful upgrade on speakers is significantly higher SLP ability+lower distortion considering FR and directivity is decent.
Anything else at the same or similar size and ability sounds the same the next day of listening.

 

[DSJR]

There's a lot to running a small company making loudspeakers and (certainly in the UK), getting good quality boxes to build your designs into ain't cheap either.

We're hugely spoiled at the low cost end with a deluge of basically good quality far eastern made speakers, made with cheap labour and very low prices (the distributors still make a good amount on them though).

I'm old enough to remember how difficult it apparently was to keep 'budget' boxes at one hundred quid a pair back in the 90's. Models from the late 70's which few of you will know let remember, started at £100 to £120pr, finished their lives a few years later at well over 50% more expensive and the new crop at a ton or so were smaller, vinyl wrapped and very much simpler to build and with far cheaper drivers, the skill being in getting said boxes to work at all for the money. Said speakers (One which comes to mind is the 'little more than hardboard' constructed Mission 70) would arguably be the thick end of five hundred quid if made today (dealer margins were around 40% but may be nearer 50% now).

I'm reliably informed of a late 90s well finished speaker selling at £320pr inc vat, which apparently landed here boxed and ready to go for $14 per boxed pair. Okay, one may well need to add duties/vat and so on to that figure, but by then the markups were huge using cheap far eastern construction and I believe this kind-of continues to this day, albeit with post 2008 profit-squeezing.

Coming to today, There are some very good very low cost two-ways out there which 'go low enough' for most small-room use and which don't sound scratchy. I suspect mass-producing in the far east is a main way for them to sell at such very low prices and many recommended here are fully active too. Not sure if Kali's use US sourced drivers as I believe they're assembled in the US?

To get a BIG speaker able to effortlessly plumb bass depths with low distortion, costs escalate hugely and the market desire for such boxes seems much lower today sadly. Towers can have a kind of 'tuned organ pipe' style of one-note honk/bass too if not meticulously designed and this costs money...

 

[madrac]

Contrary to popular opinion, a single 5 or 6 inch driver cant do bass. LOL

Check out the Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX (bookshelf) - here's a case where a single 5 or 6 inch driver can do bass, and in spades.

 

[JiiPee]

I think the threshold is personal and depends on factors like:
- Required bass depth and SPL.
- Required quality of enclosure finish.
- Willingness to support unethical governments and labor practices.

 

[kemmler3D]

There's a lot to running a small company making loudspeakers and (certainly in the UK), getting good quality boxes to build your designs into ain't cheap either.

We're hugely spoiled at the low cost end with a deluge of basically good quality far eastern made speakers, made with cheap labour and very low prices (the distributors still make a good amount on them though).

I'm old enough to remember how difficult it apparently was to keep 'budget' boxes at one hundred quid a pair back in the 90's. Models from the late 70's which few of you will know let remember, started at £100 to £120pr, finished their lives a few years later at well over 50% more expensive and the new crop at a ton or so were smaller, vinyl wrapped and very much simpler to build and with far cheaper drivers, the skill being in getting said boxes to work at all for the money. Said speakers (One which comes to mind is the 'little more than hardboard' constructed Mission 70) would arguably be the thick end of five hundred quid if made today (dealer margins were around 40% but may be nearer 50% now).

I'm reliably informed of a late 90s well finished speaker selling at £320pr inc vat, which apparently landed here boxed and ready to go for $14 per boxed pair. Okay, one may well need to add duties/vat and so on to that figure, but by then the markups were huge using cheap far eastern construction and I believe this kind-of continues to this day, albeit with post 2008 profit-squeezing.

Coming to today, There are some very good very low cost two-ways out there which 'go low enough' for most small-room use and which don't sound scratchy. I suspect mass-producing in the far east is a main way for them to sell at such very low prices and many recommended here are fully active too. Not sure if Kali's use US sourced drivers as I believe they're assembled in the US?

To get a BIG speaker able to effortlessly plumb bass depths with low distortion, costs escalate hugely and the market desire for such boxes seems much lower today sadly. Towers can have a kind of 'tuned organ pipe' style of one-note honk/bass too if not meticulously designed and this costs money...

Can confirm this, broadly.

We were importing speakers from the east (portables) and our cost was upwards of 30% - most industry insiders we were in touch with considered this alarmingly high, and would advise manufacturers to keep the cost:MSRP ratio no higher than 10-20%. ~50% is possible if you only sell direct, have a crappy return policy (or no defects) and basically never invest in a loser product - this is rare.

Retailer / dealer margin, returns, and shipping costs figure prominently in the cost of speakers. A lot of consumers expect "free shipping", but UPS / FedEx certainly aren't free and the cost goes up very quickly with size more than weight, moreso in recent years. This is still true, but to a lesser extent as the speaker and parts are shipped around before being shipped to the consumer. So the cost of a large floorstander is disproportionately high compared to bookshelves, and likewise vs. tiny portables.

 

[Sal1950]

Check out the Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX (bookshelf) - here's a case where a single 5 or 6 inch driver can do bass, and in spades.

Humm, below 50hz they fall off a cliff. Pretty much identical to the Revel's and Wharfdales shown.
When it comes to bass, you can't change the laws of physics.
There is only so much air a 6" piston can move and this spec isn't taking in the levels of distortion.
Very nice little speakers but they're not miracle workers.

Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX Review

The LX's arrived yesterday and I have listened to them for a good 4 hours. Definitely not enough time to really bring out what these are capable of, but nonetheless, I am impressed. They are large for bookshelf speakers, each one is about 20 pounds and hasabout 14.25 inches of height. They...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Penelinfi]

Again depends on what you call "bass", how much of it you need. Bass goes high enough in frequency that even a 2" driver can still play some.

At the lower end you can get decent response especially in smaller rooms to cover most natural musical instruments range.



Lots of people seem to "need" 110dB at 20Hz but others don't...

 

[madrac]

Humm, below 50hz they fall off a cliff. Pretty much identical to the Revel's and Wharfdales shown.
When it comes to bass, you can't change the laws of physics.
There is only so much air a 6" piston can move and this spec isn't taking in the levels of distortion.
Very nice little speakers but they're not miracle workers.

Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX Review

The LX's arrived yesterday and I have listened to them for a good 4 hours. Definitely not enough time to really bring out what these are capable of, but nonetheless, I am impressed. They are large for bookshelf speakers, each one is about 20 pounds and hasabout 14.25 inches of height. They...

www.audiosciencereview.com

In room response is much lower. Per their specs typical is 28 - 23k. Per my ears, that sounds pretty close. IMO, you can definitely use them w/o a sub for music. One of these days, maybe I’ll move them from my office (not the greatest placement options) to my main room to do that.

 

[coonmanx]

Depends what you need when it comes to "bass". If you need loud at 20Hz, then yes you will need more driver.
If you need 30Hz + at "reasonable" volume, then you can be satisfied with a pair of good quality 5-6.5" woofers. Maybe leaning towards the larger size of course. But a Scanspeak Revelator can flap quite nicely in smaller spaces at levels where the treble is too loud.
A Purifi 6.5 even more so

I think you need at least an 8" woofer to get decent bass at 30 Hz. And even then you need to bump up that 32 Hz. slider a few dBs on the EQ. I do own a speaker pair with 6.5" woofers and yes there is bass there that goes down to 30 Hz. But it is nowhere near what I get from my other speakers that use 8" woofers. Night and day frankly and that relates to surface area and physics.

I am OK with the bass not being all that pronounced from the set of speakers with the 6.5" woofers (Scott 166) because I live in an apartment and don't want to piss off any neighbors. But I also do play the other set of speakers with the 8" woofers at times. Just not too loud.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I think I would pay more for speakers that demonstrate excellent linearity across a wide range of levels (including above 105dB)*. Achieving this with low distortion, a flat (anechoic) frequency response, smooth dispersion and significant low end extension can make for expensive speakers.

* i.e. the frequency response is the same at 75, 85, 95 and 105dB and distortion remains low even at 105.

 

[bodhi]

The only meaningful upgrade on speakers is significantly higher SLP ability+lower distortion considering FR and directivity is decent.
Anything else at the same or similar size and ability sounds the same the next day of listening.

The speaker is the last chance if we want to think about hifi as a hobby where there always exists some upgrade to look for.

Mirroring your opinion, I think the speaker is also solved problem in most listening situations (small to medium sized room, no huge SPL requirements). Maybe it's not usual to get the "good enough" system when starting out, but the final solution is available for the next upgrade. If the goal is just to enjoy listening in normal everyday situations.

But to keep the hobby alive you get these exaggerated opinions where speaker A with close the same specs as speaker B actually "causes headache", "has metallic highs" or something like that, because of some 1-2dB dip somewhere.

I think that sometime in the near future the objectivist crowd takes the last step and agrees that even transducer upgrades after certain base performance has been reached is questionable from practical viewpoint.

 

[RDoc]

IMHO it makes more sense to use 2 way speakers with flat frequency response and reasonable distortion down to mid bass (40-60 Hz or so) and use a subwoofer (or 2) for everything below that.