Diminishing Returns, Speakers

[JimA84]

Humm, below 50hz they fall off a cliff. Pretty much identical to the Revel's and Wharfdales shown.
When it comes to bass, you can't change the laws of physics.
There is only so much air a 6" piston can move and this spec isn't taking in the levels of distortion.
Very nice little speakers but they're not miracle workers.

Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX Review

The LX's arrived yesterday and I have listened to them for a good 4 hours. Definitely not enough time to really bring out what these are capable of, but nonetheless, I am impressed. They are large for bookshelf speakers, each one is about 20 pounds and hasabout 14.25 inches of height. They...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I once had a pair of Samson Rubicon 5a ribbon active monitors which really only went to 58 Hz but they sounded really good.

If you want that last octave you can always add a good sub.

 

[lowkeyoperations]

I think the threshold is personal and depends on factors like:
- Required bass depth and SPL.
- Required quality of enclosure finish.
- Willingness to support unethical governments and labor practices.

And depends on income level most likely too.

 

[Chromatischism]

For 2 way speaker, the point is at 600$
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ce-dbr-62-bookshelf-speaker-review-jpg.55712/

I have had these and a pair of $2k speakers. While the ELACs are very good for the price, there are still solid gains in sound quality at $1.5k to $2k. Based on what I've heard, I think the jump is similar to the jump from $300 to $600.

 

[Chromatischism]

Humm, below 50hz they fall off a cliff. Pretty much identical to the Revel's and Wharfdales shown.
When it comes to bass, you can't change the laws of physics.
There is only so much air a 6" piston can move and this spec isn't taking in the levels of distortion.
Very nice little speakers but they're not miracle workers.

Ascend Acoustics Sierra LX Review

The LX's arrived yesterday and I have listened to them for a good 4 hours. Definitely not enough time to really bring out what these are capable of, but nonetheless, I am impressed. They are large for bookshelf speakers, each one is about 20 pounds and hasabout 14.25 inches of height. They...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I think you would be seriously impressed by the bass output of these in a small room. Another example, the Buchardt S400 (original) didn't start to drop off until 33 Hz in my room. One of the only speakers of its size that I can confidently say "subs optional". I think they were -6 dB at 25 Hz or so.

 

[melomane13]

I have had these and a pair of $2k speakers. While the ELACs are very good for the price, there are still solid gains in sound quality at $1.5k to $2k. Based on what I've heard, I think the jump is similar to the jump from $300 to $600.

what 2k speakers?

 

[MattHooper]

As some of already pointed out, diminishing returns is going to have a subjective component.

When I think of the subject, I can’t help but think of my old pair of Thiel Model 02 speakers I still cling to and cannot part with. They are a simple two-way modest sized stand mounted speaker made by Thiel starting in 1976, before they went time and phase coherent with their designs.

I’ve had tons of amazing speakers through my room. But every time I throw those little old Thiels into the system, I simply cannot believe how compelling sound is. They do things even none of the other speakers I’ve had do. And every single time I find myself questioning “do I really need any more than this?”

Ultimately, after living for a while with them in the system, my answer turns to: yes. Once I have lived with the level of refinement available in some more modern speakers, it’s hard to completely forget what I’m missing.
I start to notice things the little Thiels aren’t quite doing, things I don’t feel like I totally give up. So eventually, I turn back to my other speakers. But those Thiels are always waiting in the background, ready to teach me a lesson again.

 

[Chromatischism]

what 2k speakers?

S400 MKII

 

[amirm]

When dealing with wood, weight, etc., you are going to have to pay. My Salon 2 speakers project a large image and deep bass that you feel in your guts that no bookshelf is going to replace. This kind of performance is going to cost thousands of dollars if not tens of thousands. I have heard > $100K speaker systems with multiple towers that can do things that no low cost speaker can do.

We can get tonality right at very low cost these days but the above factors still cost a lot of money.

 

[dfuller]

When dealing with wood, weight, etc., you are going to have to pay. My Salon 2 speakers project a large image and deep bass that you feel in your guts that no bookshelf is going to replace. This kind of performance is going to cost thousands of dollars if not tens of thousands. I have heard > $100K speaker systems with multiple towers that can do things that no low cost speaker can do.

We can get tonality right at very low cost these days but the above factors still cost a lot of money.

Bossman's right on the money here. Tonality is easy (relatively speaking, decent crossover and cabinet design with decent drivers will get you there), SPL handling while retaining that tonality is hard.

This is, basically, what ATC aimed for back in the day - SPL handling and correct tonality... and, as you'll note with any brand, you will pay dearly for that.

Neumann? Tonality's right, but if you want to push anything smaller than the KH420 loud? It ain't happening. Same with Genelec, anything smaller than the 8361 or S360 or 1237 just won't do it.

 

[Petrushka]

For 2 way speaker, the point is at 600$
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ce-dbr-62-bookshelf-speaker-review-jpg.55712/

Those look suspiciously like Dynaco A-25s.

 

[Bruce Morgen]

For yours truly, the diminishing returns start to set in at or near $1k/pair for near field and mid field applications. Erin's U-Toob rundown in that category seems to confirm that -- his #1 is my 3-way active Kali IN-8v2s, which are a tremendous buy @ $800/pair MSRP. For larger rooms, the game changes pretty significantly -- that's where bigger speakers tend to excel and spending more, even into the $10k+ range, begins to make a good deal more sense IMO. Had I the funds and an appropriate room, I'd go for a Kii 3 system in a heartbeat -- but my listening space is small and so is my budget.

Ultimate Budget-Friendly Speaker Picks

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I don't believe it's possible to reproduce the dynamic and uncompressed/undistorted sound that studio main monitors achieve without spending considerably more money than $2k. Many domestic speakers sound fantastic, but begin to compress, or "droop" at the extremes once hot or beyond a certain SPL.

Uncompressed dynamic range with accurate FR, low distortion and phase behaviour is expensive to produce.

 

[Petrushka]

Am I wrong that monitor speakers are designed for near field listening?

I do not sit down to listen. Perhaps ADHD, or something, I want speakers that do not change character as you wander around doing other things.

 

[JiiPee]

Am I wrong that monitor speakers are designed for near field listening?

I do not sit down to listen. Perhaps ADHD, or something, I want speakers that do not change character as you wander around doing other things.

Smaller Genelec 83X1 series speakers are designed for near field monitoring, and so are many other smallish studio monitors. Basically, You need to first figure out the listening distance and SPL You want at that distance, and then select Your speakers accordingly.

Increasing speaker size does not change the fact that SPL decreases by 6 dB when Your distance from the speakers doubles. If You really want to have all the time the same SPL when You wander around the room, You need to build some kind of automatic tracking and volume control to compensate that.

 

[Ellebob]

There is nothing different between a nearfield monitor and your typical home bookshelf speaker. You can absolutely use a studio monitor for home listening. Their sound doesn't change as you get further away. It doesn't suddenly become nasty.

In the Pro world there are two things that classify a monitor is near field. One is SPL capability and the second is whether the sound will combined at a given distance.

For example if you placed a tower speaker on a desk 3 feet away, you would not hear the combined sound of the woofer, mid-range and tweeter drivers. The drivers that are closest to you would be more prominent.

A bookshelf speaker will not have the SPL capability the further away you get. So, if you need loud you need a larger speaker. If you don't need loud, a smaller bookshelf sized speaker will be fine further away.

There are other factors as well. Like if you want to reach the lower octaves, most smaller speakers will not be capable. That would require subwoofer, where a larger speaker might have enough bass capability. Even with larger speakers that can go lower, I would still recommend a sub. That's because the best location for bass is not the same location for midrange and highs. But that is a whole different topic.


I wish this myth would of near field speakers can't be used further away would end. I think a lot of people bypass studio monitors because of this myth and they might be a great choice for their situation. Almost, any home bookshelf speaker could be classified as a nearfield monitor. Of course, if you were to classify your average home bookshelf speaker as a studio monitor, I think it is requirement you make it look like an ugly black box first

 

[Verig]

About 2k. There's marked improvement to about 10k range. After that it's all good, just different.

Edit: talking about normal living room setups.

 

[Sokel]

There is nothing different between a nearfield monitor and your typical home bookshelf speaker. You can absolutely use a studio monitor for home listening. Their sound doesn't change as you get further away. It doesn't suddenly become nasty.

In the Pro world there are two things that classify a monitor is near field. One is SPL capability and the second is whether the sound will combined at a given distance.

For example if you placed a tower speaker on a desk 3 feet away, you would not hear the combined sound of the woofer, mid-range and tweeter drivers. The drivers that are closest to you would be more prominent.

A bookshelf speaker will not have the SPL capability the further away you get. So, if you need loud you need a larger speaker. If you don't need loud, a smaller bookshelf sized speaker will be fine further away.

There are other factors as well. Like if you want to reach the lower octaves, most smaller speakers will not be capable. That would require subwoofer, where a larger speaker might have enough bass capability. Even with larger speakers that can go lower, I would still recommend a sub. That's because the best location for bass is not the same location for midrange and highs. But that is a whole different topic.


I wish this myth would of near field speakers can't be used further away would end. I think a lot of people bypass studio monitors because of this myth and they might be a great choice for their situation. Almost, any home bookshelf speaker could be classified as a nearfield monitor. Of course, if you were to classify your average home bookshelf speaker as a studio monitor, I think it is requirement you make it look like an ugly black box first

Comparing studio nearfield monitors with "home" small bookshelves or towers,etc perplexes things a little as it sounds (and only sounds,you're right about what you say) like two different worlds.

It's way easier to compare studio nearfields with studio mains monitors and then extrapolate it to bookshelves vs tower "home" speakers.

Clears the picture much better.

 

[JiiPee]

To add to my previous post, not only does the SPL decrease when Your distance from the speaker changes, but the tonality will possibly (or even likely) change too, because of the listening space accoustics. Having the sound remain exactly same everywhere in the room is practically an unobtainable goal.

 

[Purité Audio]

Speakers with constant directivity ( in my experience) don’t change tonality but the sound field is more diffuse as you move away, direct/reflected balance at around 3m depending on many factors.
Keith

 

[Oddball]

If you define diminishing returns as a point on a slope where you are on top, that would be a very different slope for most based on many subjective factors. People perceive value quite differently, and not just in audio world. This also gets into preferences. As noted above, lots of considerations - bookshelves vs. towers vs center vs Atmos, FR, SPL, distortion, directivity, aesthetics, and budget allocated for the specific speaker/s.

Know quite a few people with $100k cars and no stereo or HT system and quite a few with more modest cars and pretty nice stereo or HT systems. Also know very few with both great cars and stereo/HT systems. And not really sure how rich, poor, or middle-class they are as don't run their books. But they obviously have different goals and preferences and allocate their budgets differently based on different perception of value they are getting for their purchases.

If one does not want 110dB SPL tower with great FR, low extension and low distortion, then point of diminishing returns will start at lower $$$$. But it's perfectly fine to want not just one but many of those. Finding the budget for that is usually a more difficult task.