Diminishing Returns, Speakers

[yakman]

I'd be willing to pay 5k for 2way bookshelf, not convinced they'd be audibly superior to those in the 2k range. The ATC 19 SCM v2 I just sold were 3.5k ish. They were excellent speakers, but I think the price reflected the name, where they were made, etc.

You actually answered your own question: it is a very personal choice.

For me, i only purchase passive monitor like hifi speakers for home use. Not just that, i pioritize (not restrict to) manefacturers that make pro monitors and transducers.
e.g ATC, Dynaudio, Focal, JBL, (KEF) etc

This may not be the most cost effective method. And I can't say that $5K speakers from the above companies can beat all $2K in the market even for my own use.
But it is very safe method as I don't have the time or ways to audition every loudspeaker at a particular price range under the exact same condition: in my home systems.

As a result, i only need to answer whether a pair of $5K from those companies justify the extre 2-3$K in my personal system. My answer is yes.
Because the next price bracket is $10K. Then I need to start considering bookshelf + sub vs floorstanding. Fortunately i can still afford 10K per pair speakers, but i cannot afford a proper house/room to justify the extra spending.
All these lead to my personal diminishing return at $5K for passive.
If one day i could afford a properly acoustic treated large room, I would raise that from $5K to $50K : )

But that doesn't change the fact that active pro monitor $7K (down from 10K after cheching the current price) and passive $5K diminishing return set by the industry for the pros.
Using Dynaudio as an example, we are talking about:

Hifi range
Coutour 20 vs Evoke 20

Pro range
Core 59 vs Core 5

 

[Penelinfi]

5k is pretty high got passive monitors. Is there a 5k passive book shelf you feel will exceed the performance of well designed and built 2-3k monitors?

Maybe something like the March Audio Sointuva; something using top end drivers. How much more do you get for using top end vs very good drivers assuming good design implementation? Not sure. Of course there's active monitors like genelec/Neuman or speakers like buchardt s400mk2 or A10 (active) that would be interesting to compare.

 

[WillBrink]

Maybe something like the March Audio Sointuva; something using top end drivers. How much more do you get for using top end vs very good drivers assuming good design implementation? Not sure. Of course there's active monitors like genelec/Neuman or speakers like buchardt s400mk2 or A10 (active) that would be interesting to compare.

Those look like fantastic speakers all around, to include things that may not impact audio per se, but overall ownership enjoyment. They were on my short list until Erin's advice was they were best for those who wanted a full range stand mount as their focus. I'm using dual subs, so my interest is in say speakers that's strong point - sonically speaking - are in the ranges the subs can't cover. If I was looking for a do it all speaker that was a standmount, they'd have to be on the short list.

 

[highender]

Maybe something like the March Audio Sointuva; something using top end drivers. How much more do you get for using top end vs very good drivers assuming good design implementation? Not sure. Of course there's active monitors like genelec/Neuman or speakers like buchardt s400mk2 or A10 (active) that would be interesting to compare.

Or these from Sun Audio, using similar top end drivers but the midrange response looks quite a bit smoother to me. And the midrange is where we usually are most sensitive.

 

[WillBrink]

Or these from Sun Audio, using similar top end drivers but the midrange response looks quite a bit smoother to me. And the midrange is where we usually are most sensitive.

Those look very interesting from them:

Purified 4 (pair)

The Purified 4 loudspeakers are designed to be driven active with your own crossover and amplifiers. Aluminum spherical enclosure. PURIFI PTT4.0X04-NLC-02, PTT4.0X04-NAC-04, PTT4.0M04-NLC-02, PTT4.0M04-NAC-04, Purifi PTT-P08 tweeter, BlieSMa T34A-4, T34B-4, T25A-6, T25S-6, T25B-6, T25D-6, Purifi...

sunaudio.com

 

[Ktacos]

I have a setup with some c note speakers and two cheap dayton audio subs. I have other setups that are much more costly and none of them really sound that much better, and certainly not in any amount that correlates with their cost. Once you get something neutral with good dispersion and can cover the whole range from 20-20 then I don't really feel there is elsewhere to go. If you want more SPL you can get it for money but should still adhere to the performance metrics mentioned above.

Kind of puts a damper on the hobby a bit, I struggle to find the desire to buy or build anything new as I don't think there is anything out there that is really going to impress or excite me but it does put more of the focus back on the music which is nice. Maybe time to branch into a new hobby, always wanted to get a kayak and just travel around hitting any body of water I could that is safe.

 

[Penelinfi]

Or these from Sun Audio, using similar top end drivers but the midrange response looks quite a bit smoother to me. And the midrange is where we usually are most sensitive.

Those are active speakers technically as you need your own amps and DSP. Nice speaker though overall cost may even be higher than Sointuva and you'll definitely need a sub

 

[WillBrink]

I have a setup with some c note speakers and two cheap dayton audio subs. I have other setups that are much more costly and none of them really sound that much better, and certainly not in any amount that correlates with their cost. Once you get something neutral with good dispersion and can cover the whole range from 20-20 then I don't really feel there is elsewhere to go. If you want more SPL you can get it for money but should still adhere to the performance metrics mentioned above.

Kind of puts a damper on the hobby a bit, I struggle to find the desire to buy or build anything new as I don't think there is anything out there that is really going to impress or excite me but it does put more of the focus back on the music which is nice. Maybe time to branch into a new hobby, always wanted to get a kayak and just travel around hitting any body of water I could that is safe.

I honed in on speakers as of all the gear in the chain, they make the most noticeable difference in the audio experience and the diminishing returns the most fuzzy, or extended. I think value for $ in audio has gotten to the point where one really does not have to spend much to get excellent audio, making it more difficult to justify big $ on a system. A well chosen mid fi system will sound better then many a high end system from not long ago, very close to as good to a high end system now. I have one set up in a room that's a pair of $500 actives, a under $100 streamer, using my phone as pre amp, so under 1k, and it's surprisingly satisfying sound, maybe 80% as good as my main system, which is a good mid fi system. I listened to a 500k system not long ago, and while better than my system, it didn't blow me away to where I felt my own system was lacking. I do pull away from the hobby for a time and go back to my photography and such, but all my hobbies get pricey fast! I do miss the days where I thought my Zenith boom box was the height of audio bliss (circa early 80s), and ignorance is bliss in many cases. I even envy those who think changing out power cords will improve their sound. They're delusional but probably happier than I am...

 

[FrantzM]

I have a setup with some c note speakers and two cheap dayton audio subs. I have other setups that are much more costly and none of them really sound that much better, and certainly not in any amount that correlates with their cost. Once you get something neutral with good dispersion and can cover the whole range from 20-20 then I don't really feel there is elsewhere to go. If you want more SPL you can get it for money but should still adhere to the performance metrics mentioned above.

Kind of puts a damper on the hobby a bit, I struggle to find the desire to buy or build anything new as I don't think there is anything out there that is really going to impress or excite me but it does put more of the focus back on the music which is nice. Maybe time to branch into a new hobby, always wanted to get a kayak and just travel around hitting any body of water I could that is safe.

I have a similarly inexpensive setup in a small, (3.2 x 5, 2.8 meters) room:
JBL LSR-308
2 x Dayton SUB-1500

This cheap (yes) combo, has put (some) damper on the hobby for me.. Not a full stop but a regular wondering at how much should I spend to be more satisfied. And this has been going on for a few years ... and counting ...

Peace

 

[traind]

Interesting thread! A few have said this but diminishing returns is largely subjective in areas like this where there is no clear standard for what performance gain you are looking for per dollar spent.

Most people use face value or a gut check for is it worth it. Take a car's straight line performance. It's not difficult to measure differences in that single parameter but who puts an exact value on it? I have never seen a $ amount directly correlated to something like quarter mile et or mph for showroom standard cars. But you know that if I spend x amount more on one car, I will get a faster car. Or a quieter car. Or more fuel efficient/better range per charge etc. And it usually is not double the money and I want double the performance. More often it is if I double the money (or spend 50% more or whatever), do I get significantly better performance? And the point where you no longer do is the point of diminishing returns, right?

I find it interesting that Amrir chimed in and said that you can spend 20-25k on Revel Salon 2 tower speakers and continue to get more value and a better product than less expensive options. However, the tone of the thread did not change all that much with this expert opinion. I am guessing that is because the relative value of spending that amount for a performance gain is low for the average consumer who is going to have a hard time justifying that purchase price even if the sound is noticeably and significantly better. I wonder if that is why some estimate the performance gain to be only 1 to 5% at that price level vs much less expensive options? Personally, I am guessing the performance gain is more noticeable than that but how you view that large sum of cash flavors your perception of the relative jump in quality.