Diminishing Returns, Speakers

[Petrushka]

Smaller Genelec 83X1 series speakers are designed for near field monitoring, and so are many other smallish studio monitors. Basically, You need to first figure out the listening distance and SPL You want at that distance, and then select Your speakers accordingly.

Increasing speaker size does not change the fact that SPL decreases by 6 dB when Your distance from the speakers doubles. If You really want to have all the time the same SPL when You wander around the room, You need to build some kind of automatic tracking and volume control to compensate that.

But I almost never listen close enough so that moving around doubles the distance.

On the other hand, there’s nothing unexpected about a sound source seeming louder as you get closer. But the tonality should, ideally, not change.

The first speakers I bought were Bose 901s, in 1968. I now have some Polk towers for my TV in the bedroom, and some KEF 105/3s in the living room. The living/dining/kitchen are semi-open plan, and quite large, with a high ceiling. The sound doesn’t change character as you move about, or at least the change seems natural.

Disclaimer: I’m old, so variations in the upper octave are outside my hearing. But I hear the lower octaves just fine, and the bass does not vary much.

 

[rank]

Steinheim uses PHL speakers (like Genelec which seems very popular here) and others costing a few hundred US $ ea. (public price) and resells its "collections" for 13700 to 750 000 US $.
So how do you calculate your law of diminishing returns?

 

[mj30250]

Despite being asked frequently, this is a question that has no correct answer. Consider a situation in which a $100 per pair speaker is "twice as good" as the next best speaker, which costs $70 per pair. And then, to find a speaker that is "only" 50% better than that one costs $200 per pair. In this case, diminishing returns would have already kicked in hard, and we are still merely within the budget range of a typical high school student. And then there's the rather enormous issue of how do we quantify the relative performance of a speaker in terms of percentages, or some other scoring mechanism to begin with? What the heck does "twice as good", or 50% better even mean? There's also the matter of bass desires/requirements. Do you require your speakers to run full range, or will you be integrating and thus budgeting for subwoofers? Do you require reference level playback in a large, open concept living room, or are you happy with 70dB in a small space in which you're 4 feet from the speakers? As you can see, the question becomes problematic quite rapidly.

And yes, there is no shortage of offerings that prize luxury cabinetry and/or aesthetic design over performance. Others go in the opposite direction, and some prioritize both. Retail pricing for all of the above can vary dramatically.

I think to start with, the better questions to ask relate to what your goals are around various performance traits, including:

Frequency response
Directivity
Wide or narrow dispersion
Bass extension/output
SPL capabilities / acceptable levels of distortion

Once you have a grasp on those considerations, consult the ever growing database of speaker measurements (which are largely agnostic to aesthetic/luxury concerns) and determine what's within budget, or worth saving for. You may arrive at the conclusion that audio nirvana is achievable for a rather modest outlay, or that waiting out your wealthy uncle's inheritance might be required.

 

[richard12511]

I think others have mostly already said what I would say. Near perfect tonality and directivity can be had for super cheap these days. The JBL 305p regularly goes on sale for 50% off, and it's tonality/directivity is better than 90%+ speakers, including cost no object speakers. If you can DIY, there's a $150 speaker reviewed here that's probably in the top 95%. In that sense, diminishing returns kicks in hard and fast. Beyond that $150, you're looking at perhaps just a 5% overall upside.

Where it - and all other cheap speakers - fall short is either in the bass extension, the max output, or both. To get both deep bass extension and max spl requires a huge box with huge drivers, which is necessarily going to be expensive. I'm not really aware of many designs under $10,000 that can give you both. Closest thing I know of is the JTR 2015RT, but it's huge, and doesn't have the perfect directivity you get from Neumann/Genelec. There are smaller designs that can get super low, like the Kii Three or D&D 8C, but they sacrifice max output, and they're still $15,000+. There are also smaller designs that give you great output, like the ATC SCM45 or JTR 212HTR, but they sacrifice bass extension, and are still really expensive. Bottom line is if you want great directivity, great tonality, great bass extension, and great spl, you're probably looking at spending $20,000, at least.

I will add that you can make this much cheaper by going with smaller speakers(towers or standmounts) and big subs. Integrated well, they'll go deeper and play louder than even the big $20,000 towers, but you'll have to do the driver integration yourself. With the big $20,000+ towers, the sub is already perfectly integrated, and I do think most beginners underestimate how difficult that is to do well.

Neumann? Tonality's right, but if you want to push anything smaller than the KH420 loud? It ain't happening. Same with Genelec, anything smaller than the 8361 or S360 or 1237 just won't do it.

I'll say that when I first got my 8351bs, I ran them for a few weeks on their own, and I was definitely starting to reach their limits at my 10ft listening distance with bass heavy music. This changes though if you're willing to properly integrate subwoofers, which is not always easy. With my subs helping, the 8351Bs will get louder(cleanly) at 10ft than any non hearing damaged human would be able to stand for more than a minute or so without protection. I need to get a spl meter to verify, but it seems to get louder than the big towers.

 

[Penelinfi]

Smaller Genelec 83X1 series speakers are designed for near field monitoring, and so are many other smallish studio monitors. Basically, You need to first figure out the listening distance and SPL You want at that distance, and then select Your speakers accordingly.

Increasing speaker size does not change the fact that SPL decreases by 6 dB when Your distance from the speakers doubles. If You really want to have all the time the same SPL when You wander around the room, You need to build some kind of automatic tracking and volume control to compensate that.

Make a line array in each corner lol

 

[Pareto Pragmatic]

I put diminishing returns on $ at 2k, give or take a few.

For 2 way speaker, the point is at 600$

I am currently listening to a pair of speakers (Scott 166) that I got off of Ebay for around $150. Of course they are used speakers. But they sound very good.

Three points let you estimate a curve.

I start with $200. Good, flawed, but real speakers can be had assuming knowledge and shopping skills. That is the steepest gain.

My personal rule of thumb is 2x the price will get better, 3x will level up. So leveling up is $600. Very good speakers, audiophile approved and everything. Usually with a few minor issues though even at the best.

What that gets you in speaker comes from the material costs, level of labor costs in manufacturing and design, etc. Bigger magnets cost more. More complex cabinets cost more. New tech R&D costs more.

3x 600 is $1800, so $2000. Which is a level of magnitude spending increase over $200. This is where I ended up, $1800 with stands. And I feel like I made no compromises in doing so.

So what is the next level? Well, 3x 1800 is $5400 and 10x 2000 is $20,000. Call it $10k. What would I get for my money if I made one of those leaps?

In my room? Very little. In a dedicated room? A bit more.

So, my personal preference curve, which matches that of many others, is:

50th percentile, $200
80th is $600.
95th is $2000 ish
99th is $10,000 ish

Pareto optimized at $600, but I like As better than Bs.

 

[KellenVancouver]

And depends on income level most likely too.

Yup. Quality isn't the only thing that gets sacrificed on the altar of inexpensive.

 

[JohnnyNG]

I've been through quite a few speakers over the years but since I got my Revel M106 a few years ago my returns have diminished to zero.

 

[yakman]

Just check the price for the active monitors, you get a sense where the line is.
It also varies very much depending on your room and the music you listen to.

 

[WillBrink]

Just check the price for the active monitors, you get a sense where the line is.
It also varies very much depending on your room and the music you listen to.

Actives are a different discussion and I'd put the diminishing return $ higher than 2k personally.

 

[yakman]

Actives are a different discussion and I'd put the diminishing return $ higher than 2k personally.

what I mean is that, using active monitor, you can get a sence of the diminishing return defined by the industry designers/users.
Most of the top active monitors are <$10K per pair.

For passive, my personal diminishing return is $5k for a pair of bookshelf in medium size room. I'd allocate another $2K to $3K for sub.

 

[WillBrink]

what I mean is that, using active monitor, you can get a sence of the diminishing return defined by the industry designers/users.
Most of the top active monitors are <$10K per pair.

For passive, my personal diminishing return is $5k for a pair of bookshelf in medium size room. I'd allocate another $2K to $3K for sub.

5k is pretty high got passive monitors. Is there a 5k passive book shelf you feel will exceed the performance of well designed and built 2-3k monitors?

 

[yakman]

5k is pretty high got passive monitors. Is there a 5k passive book shelf you feel will exceed the performance of well designed and built 2-3k monitors?

Of course and i spent that on a pair of Dynaudio Contour 20. They are passive monitor like hifi speakers.
I have used a number of active monitors from Dynaudio, Focal, PSI etc from 1K to 10K

 

[WillBrink]

Of course and i spent that on a pair of Dynaudio Contour 20. They are passive monitor like hifi speakers.
I have used a number of active monitors from Dynaudio, Focal, PSI etc from 1K to 10K

I'd be willing to pay 5k for 2way bookshelf, not convinced they'd be audibly superior to those in the 2k range. The ATC 19 SCM v2 I just sold were 3.5k ish. They were excellent speakers, but I think the price reflected the name, where they were made, etc.

 

[graxxus]

When dealing with wood, weight, etc., you are going to have to pay. My Salon 2 speakers project a large image and deep bass that you feel in your guts that no bookshelf is going to replace. This kind of performance is going to cost thousands of dollars if not tens of thousands. I have heard > $100K speaker systems with multiple towers that can do things that no low cost speaker can do.

We can get tonality right at very low cost these days but the above factors still cost a lot of money.

Agree. But how is it measured?

 

[Ciobi69]

Or one can easy add 2 very good sub and cover the entire 20-80-100 hz easy

 

[test1223]

Would put the number higher or lower or agree with my assessment? Tower speakers may be more difficult, but for me, I'd place it at 5k ish.

There are many different types of good speakers and all sound differently and some types can be very expensive.

E.g. big horn speakers provide a narrow beam in the bass need to be very big and is therefore very expensive. On the other hand if you want to have a speaker which beams omnidirectional in the bass and beams more narrow in the higher frequencies you can get a more inexpensive good speaker.

There many such categories like high spl, unusual di designs like a dipol or cardiod behavior. Most unusual designs are much more expensive.

 

[WillBrink]

Or one can easy add 2 very good sub and cover the entire 20-80-100 hz easy

That's what I have done. Seems best bang for the $ for most.

 

[Petrushka]

My question would be, what does it take to reach the 90 percent rule. Or the 95 percent rule.

It makes a difference whether you need to be loud. Or fine furniture. Or new rather than used.

 

[WillBrink]

My question would be, what does it take to reach the 90 percent rule. Or the 95 percent rule.

It makes a difference whether you need to be loud. Or fine furniture. Or new rather than used.

I thought PP in #46 did a good job of it, and note his 95% hits at exactly my 2k figure.