IEM's - Where do diminishing returns start - cost wise? $10, $15, $20, $30, $50, $200, etc, etc

[OK1]

An ARTTI T10 was delivered today. I have been listening them for no more than 30(more like an hour by the time I finish writing this) minutes. 1st impressions.

1. Premium packaging, compared to the KZ/CCA minimal packaging. Came with two sets of ear tips.

2. Using a balanced headphone cable for the 1st time in my life, cos I ordered this with a balanced cable. Would definitely encourage anyone purchasing dongle DAC's or headphone amps, or desktop DAC's to have one with 3.5 unbalanced (Single Ended) and 4.4mm (balanced) headphone ports. I'm listening to these via a TempoTec Sonata BHD, which I find transparent enough that I know - whatever I'm hearing, I can take the DAC completely out of the equation, i.e what I'm hearing is the headphone/IEM.

3 Fit. Nothing awkward to complain about. I'm using the medium size of the supplied tips with the black inside whatever clamping the earpiece.

4. Insertion depth - generally I find that with IEMs, the insertion depth is about 50% to 60% of what determines the sound. Too far in, it feels claustrophobic, too far out is anaemic or tinny. SO one has to find the happy medium, but I'd say this, these earphones and tips seem to stay exactly where they are placed, more than my experience with the KZ ZVX. my suspicion is that the largest ear tips that came with the ZVX, are still a little too small.

5. Looks. I've heard so much flak about the looks of these IEMs, but I find them perfect, bland enough to not attract any significant attention to themselves, but not too plain to be ignored completely. My priority is the sound, so I have not found anything objectionable about the look.

6. Cable - comes with a luxurious looking 4 core woven cable compared to the non woven two core cable supplied with the ZVX. And has a chin thing adjuster, which I will probably never use, cos I got used to not having one with the CCA CRA and the ZVX. One of the cables behind one ear could do with help, taking a while to get tamed, into shape., to fit behind my ear, to the slot behind the ears, where I like them to fit into., otherwise I feel the cable

7. Now unto the sound. 1st I have no measurement tools, so it's more about my own subjective impressions.

7.1 I think this takes EQ very well, I have a set of 8 tilt eq settings, which I created in my presets, done with high and low shelves. 4 presets to tilt it towards the bass with less treble, and 4 presets to tilt things towards the treble with less bass, using different "angles" of tilt.

The 1st in each set, tilts in both extremes by 0.5dB, 2nd by 1dB, 3rd by 1.5dB, 4th by 2dB. So I can tilt the overall sound brighter or less bright, All the presets sound great, just different. And the result is immediately apparent. So easy to get accustomed to any of these. The tilt to brightness with +1.5dB on the high frequency end with -1.5db on the bass sounds so crisp and sweet, tempted to adopt this. But have to resist the temptation.

i.e whatever your impressions of the non e-q'd sound, so easy to tweak it to your preferred listening profile.

OK so back to listening without EQ.

7.2 These IEMs are very very sensitive to placement and insertion depth, to the point that you have to attempt to have identical placement in both ears. And as we know, none of us have exactly identical ears in frequency response.

7.3 I would describe the sound as "dry". Reverb cues are NOT exaggerated or enhanced by these.

7.4 Width - is a bit of a challenge, cos I felt more cohesion in stereo from the ZVX's. Here - Left is Left, Center is Center, and Right is Right. I have not tried this, but I think this IEM would benefit from some more crossfeed. So one one hand everything is very well separated, but almost too separated, actually I'll say it, it will take a while to get used to the separation. Two guitars on both sides can sound like they are playing in completely different rooms. I wonder is this the effect of using the balanced headphone outputs, i.e a balanced output has a huge greater than 100dB "separation"(between left and right). It could be the cable.....the balanced cable..... or rather, the balanced DAC/Dongle Headphone output.

So hard to describe the difference in the width, so hard. It is definitely different from the ZVX.

7.5 Vocals - oh my Goodness, Oh my goodness. If the material you are listening to is well recorded, this does amazing wonders to vocals, Amazing. Amazing, I could type another 10 more Amazing -s.

7.6 Decay, in my opinion this is the huge change from the dynamic driver of the ZVX, the "stop" is immediate, in everything. There is no overhang, no luscious anything being extended beyond the impulse, sound ends when it is supposed to end. So this aspect introduces a clarity, cos stop means stop. You can hear through the recording that much more clearer, and distinguish elements in the mix, that bit easier. The clarity of vocals is one a step ahead of the ZVX.

7.7 Dynamics - when anything is louder, eg, a bit of a guitar strum that was poking out, in the mix, you hear it asap. Definitely in my opinion, this IEM starts and stops and presents a more accurate picture of the exact level of each element in the audio. A step ahead of the ZVX.

7.8 Frequency response - I have not heard many tracks with deep bass, but I suspect that any lightness in the bass is a function of the music I am listening to - mostly acoustic instruments and voice, in this 1st audition. But when an advert on Spotify came on, I have never heard treble ever that sounded like that - wow, seemed so artificial, but I had to eventually realise - that is exactly how it sounds. Cos listening to music that was more sympathetically recorded and produced, it just sounds more natural, and not any hint of shrillness - so that crispiness was the sound of the Spotify advert. So the highs are definitely much more extended, than the ZVX, and so apparent when a bright guitar just came on, on a new track on the album I am listening to. The bass is so cohesive, whatever is there.

7.9 I have to add this - Accuracy. Oh my goodness - it feels so accurate, that even on very very very well produced music, you are hearing every minute, minuscule timing imperfection. Every unique transient of every instrument is doing its own thing. My goodness, this is like a separation king, you hear everything, in its own "room", and you hear all of it at the same time. Analytical in spades. It helps that the fit is better than the ZVX, so I can for example yawn with no significant difference in tone. Maybe I'll try some slightly larger tips on the ZVX. This level of accuracy takes a while, to get used to. At 1st I thought, this is different, the voice sounds brighter here, and this could be true, but I really do not know. What I am hearing is not just brightness but transients presented better. I hope they are not being exaggerated. with some kind of expander effect where the quiet elements are deemphasized to make the louder elements seem louder. I sincerely hope.

So this sound very very clean, as I keep saying insertion depth is the most important factor, too deep and the bass sounds disconnected and stethoscopic. It is not easy to get it right, but when the insertion depth and level are set right, its cohesion, tightness, fantastic stereo field all comes together. So there is a sweet spot for the combination of insertion depth and level/volume, and once you are in the zone, Oh my my, it just sounds really great. Accurate. Compared to the ZVX, this seems to take off another layer of smearing that the ZVX was adding to the music/audio. Diction is easier to hear.

7.10 Soundstage - I almost feel this is a bit similar to listening on normal headphones, not quite like an IEM, a bit bigger - but it requires the insertion depth and volume to be set appropriately, so it is a bit unforgiving, but once dialled in properly - fantastic 3D involved listening.

Conclusion - I better stop here. Cos I could go on for another hour. In simple English, this does NOT add anything of its own to the audio/music. An improvement on the KZ ZVX, that sounds more accurate, more natural on acoustic instruments and especially voices - on voices oh my oh my - it is intimate, just had a goose pimple moment on a voice - Everything is just more stand out, compared to the ZVX. It may not be as "fun" as the ZVX, but I'd take accuracy anyday over excitement. No regrets. The fact that I feel no compulsion to add any EQ, and all I have to concentrate on is placement, insertion depth, and adjusting my volume, is a testimony to the high quality of the reproduction of these headphones.

Unlike when I transitioned from the CCA CRA to the KZ ZVX, and I could never go back to listen to the CRA, cos the ZVX, was clearly in another league, it is the same with the Artti T10, it is head and shoulders ahead of the ZVX, but the ZVX is still a highly respectable listen, just that the T10 is more accurate in every way.

No matter how good any other headphone sounds. I feel I have reached a tipping point. I have not heard better IEM's or headphones, but I am so satisfied with what I am hearing. I have reached the point of diminishing returns. At least the point where I do not feel the urge to invest anymore. These cost me about £45 (including taxes) and it is the best money I have spent on a listening device. No regrets, and no more FOMO, about any other headphone. I probably will still buy two or three more IEMs, when I can afford to spare the money, purely out of a desire to learn what is out there, and educate myself, but I am sure this will be my daily driver for many many months, and no matter what else I get in the future, this is a new watermark in my experience of listening to audio/music, via devices. There is a bit of detail that was hidden in the ZVX, which I'm hearing on the T10.

At the very least, I know the T10 has not been silently modified - which is a relief. I am also relieved, cos when I read all the reviews, the T10 was regarded as not as bright as some other planar magnetic IEM's so I was a bit concerned that it would be dull, but nothing like that. Very happy with what I have now, and I can truly end the search for IEMs. Feels like listening to a very good pair of studio speakers in a superbly treated room. Highly recommended, with the following three caveats

It has a sweet spot, where you have to get the right tips, the right insertion depth, and set the volume right for the track you are listening to.

I feel so relieved - my dongle search and IEM search are over, and I can move on to other things, and not feel there is anything out there that I am missing. I'll still occasionally read about these things, but no longer with any ambition to want anymore.

TempoTec Sonata BHD (DAC dongle) + Artti T10 = Satisfaction. Highly recommended combination. Total cost - £65 max. I have spent about £50 on a bunch of other dongles, and at least another £50 on earbuds, pseudo IEMs and IEMs. I wish when I started out that someone would have saved me the months of experimentation, trial and error and quite a bit of frustration like buying 3 Samsung dongles that were all fake. As they say, all is well that ends well. and I am very glad to be in this position, where I am not ashamed of what I am listening to. Highly resolving, almost life like.

Hopefully others will read this, and avoid the expense and time that I have wasted.

The Apple dongle, and the KZ ZVX are still highly recommended and together can be bought for £25. This would make an excellent starter combination, for anyone dipping their toes into this hobby/passion or whatever. And these will be my backup devices. Pretty sure I'll purchase a brand new ZVX and a brand new T10, to keep as further backups, for the day when these are no longer manufactured. That's how much I appreciate the progress they have contributed, to my ability to hear what's in the music/audio.

 

[OK1]

Definitely the T10's are more neutral - If it's bright, that's the recording. More natural, more revealing, accurate, than the ZVX. The eartips may take a while to get used to. Cos they are a bit larger than the ear tips I was using on the ZVX, But this also makes for a better seal. Definitely a better, more balanced and truer to the recording, than the ZVX., less hyped and less of a V shape. Love the T10s. Truth Tellers.

Definitely wider than the ZVX's in sound stage, Definitely wider - listening to Miles Davis - Kind of Blue, its like 180 degrees wide. Massive separation. Piano in one ear, drums in another ear , in different rooms. That is exactly what is in the recording, but it took the T10 to reproduce this as accurately - This is the truth.

Going back to listen to the ZVX, it is also a pretty enjoyable listen - a bit stringent on some region of the treble, but not quite as extended and accurate as the T10's. Sometimes too much information can be just that - too much. That is the T10. Can sound light if not inserted to the right depth and too boomy if inserted too deep, very very sensitive to insertion depth. Which explains why reviews of IEMs can be all over the map, cos we have no clue exactly how each reviewer is placing these IEM's in their ears., Definitely the T10 has a lot more information, a more complete transition from bass to treble, and in between, so much more natural than the ZVX. Realistic. Definitely more realistic, and more balanced. I am so glad I bought something that is not a KZ, so I can hear what else is out there. A very good listening tool. And I must mention placement. Placement in the stereo field is more precise. YOu know exactly where everything is - in the stereo field. No contest, the T10 is the much better IEM., so much more satisfying to listen to., in comparison. The ZVX is no slouch though, if that is all you can afford, but it has this bright tinge in comparison, the more natural presentation of the T10, takes me to another heaven of appreciation for exactly what is in the recording.

I am glad I went through this journey, so I can appreciate what I have now. Not happy though about the wasted expenses, for devices I will no longer be using. the ZVX, is sadly unlikely to have much use, if any., like the CCA CRA, now consigned to the archives of my gear experience. The good part is - Someday I must upgrade the CCA CRA I bought for the wife, to a T10, someday. But I'd be glad to happily spend more, cos it is definitely worth it. Sublime - actually hearing so much better into the audio/music.

Things like compression are another order of ease easier to hear on the T10's. And less fatiguing, than the ZVX, who could have imagined that? On the comparison, the frequency graphs suggest they should sound not much different.

And finally I can "tune" using EQ with confidence, based on the measured frequency responses that are out there. on the T10, just to notch out one or two pesky discontinuities in the graph. Small things, but they introduce a subjective improvement (could be placebo!!). Taking things even further than the default. Nothing major, just taming a few peaks in the FR curve, no more than 1.5 dB attenuation with parametric bands in three places, with narrow Q's. I could not do any model specific EQ on the ZVX with confidence, cos I was not sure what its FR was, cos KZ had silently modified the design. !! Glad to be over that issue now, with the T10's. With the minor eq changes, the clarity and natural presentation improves a tad. (but it could be placebo!!!) Who knows. Hard for me to Blind Test myself. The EQ change is very subtle, but it does notch out some of the excess excitement on the T10's. for a more boring but I think this is even more of the truth, flatter. But that is my preference, I want to hear the truth.

Complex music with lots of instruments - definitely clearer, and easier to hear the separation, than the ZVX. Vocal clarity - definitely better on the T10. No further changes. Will leave the EQ as is. No tilt EQ added.

There are high frequencies I'm hearing in songs which I never knew were there - not in all songs, but only content which has those frequencies emphasized. So the T10 is not amplifying those frequencies, for every song, simply propagating what is there, only if its there. On songs with bass, I have not yearned for any more bass, perfectly happy with whatever it presents, the bass is NOT boomy, yet very easy to hear, accurate, audible very audible, but does not get in the way of anything else. I definitely prefer the bass presentation on the T10, so distinct but no blurring of one instrument into another - none. Amazing. You hear everything distinctly - listening to some Stanley Clarke Band now. every snap on the electric bass - his main instrument on this song is clear, but NOT boomy, does not smack my ears, yet I can hear every texture of the bass. This is It. No further search. This is it.

Listening to pop, like Ed Sheeran - highly resolving. You can hear all the "flaws", i.e the mixing decisions taken by the mixing and recording and mastering engineers. Vivid, the texture of what you are listening to - so much clearer - and this is listening to Free Spotify. This is it. Truly amazing. The emotional content of the music, the goose pimples translates so much more, than the ZVX.

 

[OK1]

Planar Magnetic Headphones vs Dynamic Driver Headphones

You may have come across a number of headphones that are advertised as having "planar magnetic" drivers. But the question is, what does this mean?

headphones.com

Found this which perfectly correlates with my impressions posted above - about the ARTTI T10. I had not read this before my listening to the T10s. And it is so spot on with my own impressions - e.g the extreme separation of the stereo field. I would think that this is a hint to the superior accuracy of the planar magnetic, and a shortcoming of the dynamic driver. Planar magnetic is my personal preference., and I do not miss the bass slam, that some say is missing.

It also mentions the decay I had observed, where a dynamic driver seems to add some extra decay, while planar magnetics as I described above - STOP when the decay is supposed to stop. I prefer the TRUTH, not the embellished truth. This is becoming more like the love of some for valve gear, over solid state. Sure valves add something, that may be appealing, subjectively better, but certainly NOT as accurate as solid state amplifiers. So take your pick. Want accurate - definitely planar magnetic. So glad I went out on a limb, to get one. So glad...

 

[herr.jemine]

I'm glad you like the T10, I bought them too, they are very similar to the 7Hz Timeless AE
But I can assure you that the MP145 are a league above them, my Timeless and the T10 are just dying in the drawer - I only use my MP145 / kz as24 tuning
he differences are not huge - but they are there

 

[OK1]

I'm glad you like the T10, I bought them too, they are very similar to the 7Hz Timeless AE
But I can assure you that the MP145 are a league above them, my Timeless and the T10 are just dying in the drawer - I only use my MP145 / kz as24 tuning
he differences are not huge - but they are there

I can imagine that the MP145 and some of the less, or even more, expensive planar magnetics could be an improvement. I have to put a limit on the spend, otherwise before I know it I would be spending thousands per IEM.

T10 was my stop point. No more spending. And the level of detail I am hearing satisfied me. Really satisfied me, and gave me what I needed - clarity and neutralish frequency response, and wide frequency response. The fit still needs some getting used to, may change the ear tips to a smaller one, cos the nozzle is larger than that on my previous IEM's, so may need to move to the smaller nozzle size - small instead of the medium.

The purpose of the T10 was to check for myself, two things. What does a planar magnetic sound like? Is it just hype? And what does a non KZ/CCA IEM sound like. And I have the answers to those two questions. The unboxing experience of the T10 was luxurious, and the product - everything about it feels luxurious. I have paint peeling on my KZ ZVX, on both earpieces, even if they sound great, you kind flinch every time you put them on - and take a bit of an emotional hit - fortunately I did not spent much on the product, but that is a no no - how can an earpiece begin to look terrible within 24 hours of me receiving the product. Maybe I'll return it for that reason, but I could not return it, until I had a replacement. Probably to invest in some other KZ, as a backup. Just not good enough - the paint peeling, but now I have a replacement - the T10, I can afford to give up the ZVX.

Probably the only reason I'll keep the ZVX is cos its the best 3.5 mm I have today, so when I'm using certain devices, which only have 3.5mm it will come in useful.

This pursuit of excellence in hearing, if not put under strict discipline, can become a rabbit hole.

Very similar to when I bought the TempoTec Sonata BHD DAC dongle, of course there are better measuring devices out there, and there may be a slight audible difference, but I had to stop somewhere, that was good enough for me. An this was, for a dongle device, actually better than many desktop alternatives, which do not measure as well.

So the T10, now I have heard it for myself, and love the truth that it is telling me, has to be my stop point of diminishing returns. When I look at the entire audio chain, initially where was my start point - some Sony earbuds and the onboard headphone outputs on my laptop. I'm now way way ahead of that, and the difference is just night and day. I've surpassed anything I thought was possible, without spending too much money (except for the approx £100 wasted on devices, I should never have had to buy if I knew what I know now).

There has to be better or would I say different. The T10 cost almost 4 times the cost of the ZVX. Is it 4 times better - definitely NOT. So already as per the title of this thread, diminishing returns have already begun to set in, and I got the T10 at a bargain that was almost impossible, so the actual cost of the T10, if I bought at regular prices, was 5 times the cost of the ZVX, is it 5 times better than the ZVX - definitely not. It is better but NOT 5 times better. Here I am only focussing on the sonics. Product packaging and design and unboxing experience is 10 times better than the ZVX. Sonics, I'd say 2.5 times as good as the ZVX. The normal price of the T10, on some stores is at least 7 times the cost of the ZVX.

So question is, how much further do I need to go before it is no longer worth the incremental benefit? That would depend obviously on money. For some that limit would be £2,500, for others £50K, to get that unobtanium headphone from Sennheiser. But is it 500,000 times better than the T10 or 200,000 times better than the MP145? Definitely not. For some, the ZVX would be the limit that they have to stop at. Count myself fortunate and glad I could stretch to the T10.

The other thing that this whole exercise was about was - can an IEM replace or beat my AKG K702 Headphone?, and I have been able to answer that also - Yes, decidedly yes. For the same price of something like a Sennheiser HD 650, I could have a room full of IEM's, and have various listening options that would run rings around these dinosaurs. like the AKG 702 and the HD 650/600.

There also is the question of optimisation, how much should one apportion to each aspect of the audio chain? Do i spend £10 on an Apple dongle DAC and £200 on an IEM. And I've been able to answer that also and hear for myself what aspects need more investment, proportionally. I think the most expensive component should be the transducer, in this case the speaker or headphone, or IEM. And I've thankfully achieved that.

So if I was upgrading my headphone, I'd have to reexamine the entire chain. If I was spending £150 on an MP145, I'd have to revisit other aspects of my chain - do I need a better DAC, or a different DAC, and I'd be asking myself questions of a higher tier - like what is the difference between a Cirrus Logic DAC and an ESS Sabre DAC, cos anecdotally they sound different. I would not know cos I have never had an ESS DAC. Then I'd want to answer the question, do more expensive or better cables make a difference. i.e I'd want to pair the MP145 with a chain worthy of the improvement that the MP145 would deliver, otherwise I'm not getting the maximum benefit from the MP145. One big elephant in the room, I'm still listening on free Spotify. Does it make sense to pair an MP145 with the audio quality of Free Spotify? No. Not in my opinion.

I think there was some benefit to the culture that existed amongst Hi-Fi enthusiasts a while ago. That sense of audio as a chain, and the rational to appropriately divide up the budget, in a way that got the maximum bang for the buck, rather than do imbalanced things like have a top of the line stylus, and some rubbish speakers.

With what I have now, the weakest link that I would need to improve before doing any other upgrades, is move to paid streaming - like Tidal, but that's probably never going to happen, so the T10 and the TempoTec Sonata BHD, are my points of diminishing return. I may still spend a tiny sum on getting a 3.5 cable for the T10's, ideally with a microphone, so I can use the T10 for web conferences also. Other than that, for the foreseeable future, my acquisition journey stops here.

 

[OK1]

I'm glad you like the T10, I bought them too, they are very similar to the 7Hz Timeless AE
But I can assure you that the MP145 are a league above them, my Timeless and the T10 are just dying in the drawer - I only use my MP145 / kz as24 tuning
he differences are not huge - but they are there

Before the T10, I had been thinking of getting a few more KZ/CCA products, as part of my learning curve, but now the only thing I may bother investing in, are 3.5 mm with microphone cable, for the T10's (cos I ordered with 4.4 mm and happy with that but I play musical instruments and most of them need a 3.5mm to connect via another adapter to a 6.35mm headphone jack - so I can use the T10 with these) and maybe alternative eartips, to experiment with the fit and the sonics, which are NOT significant additional spends.

It will take a lot of convincing for me to buy any other KZ/CCA product, which is a huge achievement/statement for the T10. Yeah I am now weaned off KZ/CCA.

 

[OK1]

One downside of the Artti T10, it is so revealing, that minor timing imperfections in even pop music which is supposed to be quantize to death, are apparent, it is unforgiving. And surprisingly it is NOT overemphasizing the sibilances, so it is not fatiguing. You hear the highs, but they are not stabby, unless the music was produced that way.

And far too sensitive to insertion depth, that has to be done just right. Very small margin of error on ear placement. Also unforgiving in that aspect. This is definitely NOT an IEM for a newbie. They'll not know what to do with it, and end up criticising its sound, which is so highly dependent on the end user using it properly - right tips, right placement, and also setting the volume properly - a very demanding IEM, but worth the effort.

Makes me wonder - how well do reviewers setup their IEM's during reviews. Contrary to the dominant opinion, for the 1st time in my life, I'm hearing the bass (bass drum) on Nikki Minaj's Super Bass. This is so significant cos I've been listening to this song for nigh on 8+ years, wondering - where is the bass? The T10 reproduces this bass drum effortlessly and accurately. Effortless. So is not lacking in bass, If the bass is there it is reproduced cleanly, Effortless, no struggle to hear anything on the track.

I wish everyone could hear music with such quality. Anything less good should be banned.... Why don't the Sony's, Sennheisers, Beyerdynamics, not just buy up some of the Chinese businesses who are clearly ahead of them, in sonic quality, from what I'm listening to. Why do I have to spend hundreds to get similar quality from the main global manufacturers? What would it take for the Chinese manufacturers to fully upstage the bigger boys on a global stage? Sonics - I no longer see why I should buy a European designed listening device from Germany or Austria. Man this T10 is "banging", such clean authoritative bass. And clean midrange and clean treble to the limits of hearing. Like I've been given new ears, new hearing superpowers. like Superman.

Resolution, detailed without fatigue. My goodness.

 

[herr.jemine]

nice that you are so enthusiastic and enjoy the T10 - I felt the same way with the MP145, I was overwhelmed and left my DD IEMS in the drawer - and yes, I think they are better than my overears (HD 6xx, K712 Pro, Sundara, x2hr) T10 for 50€ they sound exactly like the 7Hz Timeless AE, pretty awesome - have fun enjoying music

try a free trial month of tidal or Qobuz, I think the song Nikki Minaj's Super Bass is absolutely terribly recorded and has zero dynamics - awful

 

[OK1]

One downside of the Artti T10, it is so revealing, that minor timing imperfections in even pop music which is supposed to be quantize to death, are apparent, it is unforgiving. And surprisingly it is NOT overemphasizing the sibilances, so it is not fatiguing. You hear the highs, but they are not stabby, unless the music was produced that way.

And far too sensitive to insertion depth, that has to be done just right. Very small margin of error on ear placement. Also unforgiving in that aspect. This is definitely NOT an IEM for a newbie. They'll not know what to do with it, and end up criticising its sound, which is so highly dependent on the end user using it properly - right tips, right placement, and also setting the volume properly - a very demanding IEM, but worth the effort.

Makes me wonder - how well do reviewers setup their IEM's during reviews. Contrary to the dominant opinion, for the 1st time in my life, I'm hearing the bass (bass drum) on Nikki Minaj's Super Bass. This is so significant cos I've been listening to this song for nigh on 8+ years, wondering - where is the bass? The T10 reproduces this bass drum effortlessly and accurately. Effortless. So is not lacking in bass, If the bass is there it is reproduced cleanly, Effortless, no struggle to hear anything on the track.

I wish everyone could hear music with such quality. Anything less good should be banned.... Why don't the Sony's, Sennheisers, Beyerdynamics, not just buy up some of the Chinese businesses who are clearly ahead of them, in sonic quality, from what I'm listening to. Why do I have to spend hundreds to get similar quality from the main global manufacturers? What would it take for the Chinese manufacturers to fully upstage the bigger boys on a global stage? Sonics - I no longer see why I should buy a European designed listening device from Germany or Austria. Man this T10 is "banging", such clean authoritative bass. And clean midrange and clean treble to the limits of hearing. Like I've been given new ears, new hearing superpowers. like Superman.

 

[shuppatsu]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but what I’m gleaning from your posts is that you like the KZ ZVX?

 

[1337wafflezz]

Looks like the T10 is overall a fantastic set. I would just EQ down those two peaks at 2khz and 5ish khz by a few db each and you should basically be good. You can eq the bass to taste I guess(not really necessary) but besides that it’s just gonna be treble level and any resonant canal peak

 

[OK1]

nice that you are so enthusiastic and enjoy the T10 - I felt the same way with the MP145, I was overwhelmed and left my DD IEMS in the drawer - and yes, I think they are better than my overears (HD 6xx, K712 Pro, Sundara, x2hr) T10 for 50€ they sound exactly like the 7Hz Timeless AE, pretty awesome - have fun enjoying music

This has been such a journey -

1. Dongle DACs - I have 4 which are now "retired" - 1 for phone calls(Apple dongle) and 1 for critical listening - the Tempotec Sonata Pro

2. IEM's 6 IEMs and earbuds "retired", with the KZ ZVX now assigned to phone calls/meetings, and the T10 for critical listening.

3. So I can imagine that the next frontier will be ear tip rolling, and learning the optimal depth for each eartip, to optimise the end result. There must be quite a variance in ear canal sizes. I did not bother too much with this prior to the T10, but with the T10 every small variance in the positioning of ear tips makes such a huge difference

Now I just did some ear tip try outs, from the ear tips included with the T10, and one set is so much more comfortable than the 1st set I tried - so comfortable like I was born with the IEM's, and I can shake my head, eat and they do not move a single millimeter - they just stay exactly in place and are impossible to fall out, and the mids/highs are now from another planet, super clean and super clear, but the bass is somewhat compromised, like one has a high pass filter engaged and a bit thin. I do miss the missing bass, and no amount of bass boosting via EQ, does the job. But the stereo field is more integrated and the super stereo is now not as extreme as the 1st set of ear tips. Oh, just that bass missing!

Now I understand why different reviewers can come up with such varying opinions, simply based on changes in eartips.

Gone back to the 1st set of eartips, I'd rather have a slightly compromised mids and high end, than a compromised bass. I'll adjust the insertion depth to prevent the mids and highs from becoming too compromised. - Pulling the IEM just a bit further out from the maximum insertion depth gives the best balance of all frequencies, with these eartips. The ideal insertion depth with these eartips, yields a result where no broad tone shaping tilt EQ is a must have, and only a bit of corrective EQ is needed. THese are definitely warmer.

4. And pairing that with specific EQ settings for each type and size of ear tip.
4.1 Corrective EQ correction at specific frequencies
4.2 Optional Tilt EQ, for broad tone shaping.

5. Listening volume. The resolution of the T10's is so unforgiving, any small changes are immediately apparent.

Ultimately it's all about compromises. Which set of compromises gives us the least undesirable result, most balanced rendition of the audio.

I once worked in computing, where the real issue with performance was not always about Capacity i,e just get a bigger box, but more often before you get a bigger box, are you using the current box to its maximum capability, is the software well and not wasting CPU cycles, cos of inefficient algorithms or poor coding style. Proper software and operating system tuning, could defer a bigger box upgrade, by a few years.

Feel it's similar with IEMs, there is so much room for optimising the IEM itself, otherwise one would buy the very best IEM, and not get the optimal result. IEM's are definitely NOT plug and play, anyone using them has a fair bit of work to do, to dial in the best results. And must also accept some compromises.

I do not think I'll ever get into physical filters, that's a step too far.( I Think in 2024), cos for me the gear is a means to an end. So I can devote more time to actually listening, not fiddle with toys.

 

[OK1]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but what I’m gleaning from your posts is that you like the KZ ZVX?

Definitely like the KZ ZVX, it was so much better than the CCA CRA, which was my 1st proper IEM, loved both of them. Now I love the T10 much more, than the KZ ZVX.

My thoughts are products like the KZ ZVX, are like the Apple Dongle, they are definitely good enough for what most people need. I'd score them at least 70%, they give respectable results.

The problem is I'm a mixing engineer and mastering engineer, taking my 1st steps into IEMs. My ears have been somewhat "trained" through a decade of audio engineering as a serious hobby, which turned into a profession in recent times, and I play keyboards/piano and sing. For the kind of critical listening I like to do with all music/audio, the T10 and the TempoTec Sonata BHD, take things up another impressive notch. Better is the enemy of good enough.

And the KZ ZVX makes me appreciate the Artti T10, even more, cos the ZVX is a decent listening device, which I would recommend for those on a budget in that price bracket - no more than $15 total cost via AliExpress, Unless of course you purchase from Amazon, where it will cost more, than that.

But I must caveat this opinion. If I had to do this again, I'd say this.

Most people just need a single IEM. And for this an IEM with a single dynamic driver, costing less than $25 fulfils the job. There are at least 20 decent IEM's in this category, any of which would be a blind buy recommendation, i.e it will sound ok.

Good examples include

1. Moondrop Chu 2
2. 7hz Crinacle Zero 2 (though think this is a Dual Dynamic Driver)
3. KZ ZVX
4. KZ D-FI
5. CCA Polaris
6. KZ Libra

Some of these cost less than $15, regular price, or due to sales. And there are many more that I do not immediately recall.

One reason to go for the Moondrop or moreso the 7Hz Zero 2 is the glowing review here :

7Hz x Crinacle Zero:2 IEM Review

This is a review, listening tests, EQ and detailed measurements of the 7Hz x Crinacle Zero:2 IEM. It was kindly donated to me by a member and costs US $24.99. The cable is soft and longer than typical which I like. They take fair amount of effort to push it but then they make a reassuring...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I also think the manufacturing consistency of the zero 2 would be much better. From AmirM's review, I'm highly tempted to get one, why - he has reviewed many headphones, speakers, and also himself owns some of the best gear money can buy, and he's a highly knowledgeable electrical/electronics engineer. He knows what he's talking about.

Suggest based on evidence - 7Hz Zero 2, would be a better option. Come to think of it after reading that review, I have to get one, as soon as I can afford it. That was probably the best IEM review I have ever read, anywhere.

 

[OK1]

Looks like the T10 is overall a fantastic set. I would just EQ down those two peaks at 2khz and 5ish khz by a few db each and you should basically be good. You can eq the bass to taste I guess(not really necessary) but besides that it’s just gonna be treble level and any resonant canal peakView attachment 382628

Thanks - you are spot on.

I had already gone to the squig.link, to see what the measurements for the T10 were.

So I had setup 3 parametric band cuts, one at 2.1Khz, 5.3Kz and another @ 8Khz. no more than -1.5 dB, with narrow Q's. Very subtle, but it takes the sonics up that little bit higher. Optimisation.

 

[OK1]

nice that you are so enthusiastic and enjoy the T10 - I felt the same way with the MP145, I was overwhelmed and left my DD IEMS in the drawer - and yes, I think they are better than my overears (HD 6xx, K712 Pro, Sundara, x2hr) T10 for 50€ they sound exactly like the 7Hz Timeless AE, pretty awesome - have fun enjoying music

try a free trial month of tidal or Qobuz, I think the song Nikki Minaj's Super Bass is absolutely terribly recorded and has zero dynamics - awful

What else can what expect, it's POP/R & B. It would not win any prizes for dynamics. But that's what many people want to hear, well crafted compression and limiting, that moves feet on the dance floor. Especially for reproduction in night clubs or via a PA at a wedding party, these limited dynamics music, will sound so fantastic, cos it gives the amplifiers the least demand, and for DJ's, maximum return on whatever number of Watts, their PA has.

To its credit, when any transducer can still render compressed and limited music like Super Bass, and still infuse it with some very enjoyable dynamics, that is a coup, something difficult to achieve. On the T10's, this track comes alive, and sounds dynamic - a serious achievement by these IEMs. i.e beyond the macro dynamics - the broad limiting applied overall, within that the IEM can still extract the microdynamics, no mean feat.

I'll add I have had Super Bass on repeat for like 3 hours, or more. I completely forgot until you mentioned it, that I had been listening to the same track, while I was doing other things. Now that is no small achievement, that after well over 50 repetitions of the same song, it still sounded as fresh to my ears, and I could listen to it again. These T10's are some serious IEM's. Not sure what kind of magic they have been infused with.

Ok time to change the track, but not because I got tired of it. Never heard Super bass with such clarity, able to hear every word she was saying.. As usual a good reproducing system, =makes you do one thing. Go back and listen to all the music you like. Next will be Dr Dre 2001. To properly test the bass. Some real bass on that album. Bass drums and Bass.

 

[OK1]

nice that you are so enthusiastic and enjoy the T10 - I felt the same way with the MP145, I was overwhelmed and left my DD IEMS in the drawer - and yes, I think they are better than my overears (HD 6xx, K712 Pro, Sundara, x2hr) T10 for 50€ they sound exactly like the 7Hz Timeless AE, pretty awesome - have fun enjoying music

try a free trial month of tidal or Qobuz, I think the song Nikki Minaj's Super Bass is absolutely terribly recorded and has zero dynamics - awful

What can I say - listening to Dr Dre 2001. Vocals clear for days, every word super transparent and clear. Not clear based on hyped upper frequencies, but clear from accurate. How can anything sound like this - so clear, not from any over emphasis of the high end.

I am aware that the T10 uses exactly the same driver as a few other highly regarded planar magnetics, so buyers have a choice of tuning. This planar driver resolves the human voice like I have never ever heard human voice, on a device. Super clear - Super Super clear - hear every word with ease. Never heard such clarity ever before. It is amazing. Bottom to Top, beats, synths, voices, hi hats, full frequency - how the heck do they do it, every drum hit a solid bang, solid crisp, clear, undistorted. I cannot believe what I'm hearing. Wow. and the clarity does not change with any change in level. So I can listen at very low volume, still rock solid clarity. This is something else. I am in awe.

Anyone who said planar magnetic is weak on bass, sorry they need to get the right ear tips. With the right tips, on Dr Dre 2001, which is one of my references for bass, in R&B, I have no need for any more bass, on some songs, I may want to turn down the bass, no lack of bass here.

Only issue is the fit. The eartips with the most amazing sonic results are not the most comfortable. Oh my "What's The Difference", demands to be heard on the T10. Absolutely completely satisfying, like the IEM was designed for this track. so clear, punchy without hype, full frequency, solid. Banging. No shortage of bass here, none. Everything is clear, super clear. Not bright - just clear, and all the special effects - foley, is crystal clear. I conclude if the song is well done, these IEM's will reproduce it. If anything is missing, it's not the IEM, it's the song. Spoken voice is SO SO realistic, like you are right there.

 

[Soandso]

@OK1, - As regards ear tips for ARTTI T10: I currently have Tangzu Tang Sancai "wide bore" tips on mine which are comfortable, stay put and to me do sound good. I like the way the flexible end of the tip contour (whose tip taper length and angle of incline I investigated compared to several other brands of tips) provides a bit of extra insertion depth. It seems to be a positive feature for my one irregularly curved ear canal. Plus I find that the tips' softly textured surface secures them against shifting in place as I walk or slowly jog (I can't opine about suitability during running). These tips seem to seat so well that sometimes if I carelessly pull out the earpiece at a downward angle the little ear tip remains in place right inside the ear. Below, for what it's worth, are corporate marketing screen shots of this brand of tips.

 

[OK1]

@OK1, - As regards ear tips for ARTTI T10: I currently have Tangzu Tang Sancai "wide bore" tips on mine which are comfortable, stay put and to me do sound good. I like the way the flexible end of the tip contour (whose tip taper length and angle of incline I investigated compared to several other brands of tips) provides a bit of extra insertion depth. It seems to be a positive feature for my one irregularly curved ear canal. Plus I find that the tips' softly textured surface secures them against shifting in place as I walk or slowly jog (I can't opine about suitability during running). These tips seem to seat so well that sometimes if I carelessly pull out the earpiece at a downward angle the little ear tip remains in place right inside the ear. Below, for what it's worth, are corporate marketing screen shots of this brand of tips. View attachment 382655
View attachment 382654

Thanks. Highly appreciated. I'll consider these as I continue my research.

I realise now that with tips, there are a couple of criteria. And some of these depend on the earpiece.

1. Nozzle length of earpiece, which determines how far it can be inserted into the ears -
2. Nozzle diameter of earpiece. Which needs to match with the internal diameter at the grip point of the eartip
3. Internal diameter of eartip, at grip point with the nozzle. i.e 2 and 3 must be closely matched.
4. Length of eartip, the longer this is, the more high frequencies seem to be absorbed.
5. External diameter of eartip, at tip, a
6. External diameter of eartip, at the base where it joins the nozzle
7. Internal diameter of eartip - looks like the wider it is, it allows high frequencies to get through more easily, and the smaller this internal diameter, it attenuates high frequencies.
8. Material from which the eartip is made, which affects compression in the ears. and quality of air seal, but also determines how easy it is to insert or remove., and also will absorb or reflect sound.

So in my wishful thinking, assuming that I can shortlist ear tips which have the right matching of 2 and 3, then I can find a set or sets of ear tips, that have variations along three axes

1. External diameter of eartip, i.e the size of the ear tip.
2. Length of ear tip
3. Internal diameter of ear tip, i.e the bore size.

And within that set, find the ones which fit me the best, for comfort, provide a good seal, and also deliver the sound with the frequency balance closest to what I want.

1st I'll experiment to see if any of the various sets of ear tips I already have (at least 5 sets with 3 sizes each), are adequate.

The takeaway for me is, this IEM business, is a real science, some clever person has to think of all of this in designing an IEM, that hopefully fits as many people as possible.

I think the current standard where IEMS are usually delivered with only 3 sizes of tips, is a bit stingy. There is so much variation in ear canal size, that they should increase this to at least 6 sizes. I recognise it is a bit of a waste, cos you only tend to use one size, (assuming your ear canals are similar), but this is the sacrifice both the manufacturers and the buyers have to accept, otherwise one arrives at a position - with only three possible sizes provided, where these tips will more likely not be a close fit, for many.

Thanks to your post, I just tried the eartips I had been using with the KZ ZVX, which was the largest of the tips that came with the ZVX, and while the fit with the nozzle took some delicate work to fit them, I have achieved one important thing - The fit is perfect, I could run with these, and they are just a bit smaller than the medium size white with black interior ear tips, which were the best fit from the sets which came with the T10.

My ears had already started hurting with the best fit tips from the T10 sets. But I had been bearing the pain, cos of the fantastic quality of the T10 sonics. Huge relief, the KZ eartips with the T10, gives me the best compromise - sound is about the same and I can adjust the insertion depth to give me more or less bass., i.e better seal or less seal. Too deep an insertion, the bass is too much, and drowns out the mids and highs. Too shallow and insertion and the bass just falls away. Thanks ever so much, for triggering this improvement. My ears canals are already pretty sore from the pressure of wearing the T10 eartips. Without doing a much more extensive comparison with many more eartip sets, I'm happy with what I have now. The larger external bore of the T10 nozzle puts a little bit more pressure on the ear canal (via the ear tips), than the smaller nozzle of the ZVX, but using the smaller eartips of the ZVX, reduces the overall pressure, creating a compromise that is the best I have had so far.

So relieved, I love the sound - slightly bassy now, but I can always move the tips outwards, a little bit, to reduce the bass. Even that it sounds pretty good. Perfect fit, that I do not think will need any micro adjustments, something that I had become accustomed to doing every half hour or so, with the ZVX's, and probably every 5 minutes with the CCA CRA's. These ones sound like they will not need frequent adjustment - I can shake my head, yawn, have a drink, and the placement/sonics, does not change.

This was an issue with the ZVX - the variation in tone, cos the ear tips were not an exact fit for me. (a bit too small), but fitted to the T10's now perfect, at least best fit I have ever had on any IEM.

Thank you. Now the stereo separation just comes together, and I no longer feel that extreme stereo separation I had written about earlier. Now it is a cohesive stereo field, a bonus. Fantastic sound. Thank you.

 

[OK1]

Ears canals are a bit sore, cos the 1st set of ear tips I used on the T10s were not a good fit for long term use - too tight, Had the same experience when I started using the CCA CRA's my 1st proper IEM's. Took about a week to 10 days to recover from the soreness, after I had changed the ear tips to a better fitting set.

So now I'm using a more comfortable set, the next few days will be recovery from soreness.

Not too happy with the ear hooks of the cable. I appreciate the woven aesthetic of the cable that came with the T10, but one of them is a bit difficult to place exactly where I want it to fit, behind my ear. The 4 core cable does not fit very well into the plastic ear hook, that surrounds the end of the cable close to the point where it is inserted into the earpiece. So unlike the flat cable that came with the ZVX, I'm feeling the ribbing of the wove core behind the ears, just slightly different from the fit of the ZVX cables, which were much easier to position behind the ears.

Also notice when properly fitted in the ear, wondering if there is too much bass, but will need to do a lot more listening to determine if its the IEM itself or the specific source (spoken word on a particular Youtube video), that is the cause. Could well be a feature of this specific audio on the Youtube video..! Will check in a few hours from now, grace of God permitting. So easy to assume existence. But learning not to take things for granted, a dear friend passed on, just a few hours after I spoke to him. So now I assume or presume nothing. especially the length of one's existence, always by the grace of God.

 

[LevityProject]

The “fit” is where the buck stops. I have the $20 Truthear Zero:2 and it’s wonderful but it’s painful to wear for me. I love my Sony XBA-N3 in comparison - about $350 but they have the perfect fit and sound signature that suits me perfectly. YMMV.

I bought a pair of 7hz Zeros (original version) to test out whether the reviews here could match my audio nerdery in what I've done to make headphones sound good. It's a no-contest. these $30 in ears blow away most things I've tried. ha! I love it, but it's frustrating that I didn't discover this sooner!

The cable connection and gels are universal fits, so it's possible to replace these with much better quality components for durability (cable) and fit/isolation (gels). And taping up the port holes might give more bass response, but it's unclear if this will objectively help or hurt their conformity to the Harmon curve.

Honestly, these are so far the best IEMs I've ever come across for really great sound out of the box.