IEM's - Where do diminishing returns start - cost wise? $10, $15, $20, $30, $50, $200, etc, etc

[herr.jemine]

the most effective thing one can do to in obtaining the goal of truly genuine hi fi at the lowest cost is to break your connection with advertising and its associated implanted false beliefs. Not easy that.

Well, most of the advertising is done by ASR, without Amir I wouldn't have bought a Zero2 and wouldn't have immersed myself in the world of IEMs.

 

[Tell]

I use EQ on my over-ears, the HD6XX just sound like crap without EQ, the Sundaras really come alive with EQ, but it's all just fiddling anyway!
I've tried EQ on IEMs but I find that the small drivers don't handle it well, you can't save the Zero2 with it!

A change in driver technology, e.g. by using multi-BA or Planar, just changes everything, without any EQ, try it yourself without being biased

I'd say that with 0.02%-0.08% distortion at 96dB they can handle an equalizer quite well.

 

[herr.jemine]

I'd say that with 0.02%-0.08% distortion at 96dB they can handle an equalizer quite well.

yes, nice, but that still doesn't change the physical limits of a single dynamic driver
This doesn't make the driver any faster, or does it decay any faster - EQ certainly has an influence on the frequency response, bass, treble and mids - but that's not all

I can assure you that a multi-ba, dd or multi-ba sound completely different, the stage and the imaging, separation are completely different, multi-ba can be extremely holographic, I don't think you can show that with an FR measurement?

This can perhaps be explained in the field of psychoacoustics, but not with a simple FR measurement - I don't know it

 

[OK1]

the most effective thing one can do to in obtaining the goal of truly genuine hi fi at the lowest cost is to break your connection with advertising and its associated implanted false beliefs. Not easy that.

100%. I bought a few items, over the years as a musician, and a home studio owner, and also was responsible for recommending and buying gear for churches. Nothing like doing one's own homework and getting 1st hand audition of any gear.

A fair number of disappointments, with gear that did not live up to expectation. Over time, I realised that many reviewers, however well intentioned, have a conflict of interest. Poor reviews are NOT good content. Especially in the IEM world whenever the product is provided by the distributor or the manufacturer. Hard to give a scathing report where the product deserves such.

I am also glad however that with DAC's and now speakers, the world of independent measurements, have removed almost all subjectivity, and one is able to buy blind, just by taking a look at the published measurements. And in those products, more often than not, especially for DACs, because these things can be easily independently verified, the manufacturer published specs are less likely to fudge the truth..

Hoping that we will soon be able to do same, for IEMs. I've read the excellent reviews of the Moondrop Chu 2 and the Zero 2, done by AmirM published here on ASR. But many of the opinions expressed here on ASR, do not align with those excellent objective measures. Both of these IEMs have great frequency response, and low distortion, yet the overwhelming impression I get, from many personal opinions expressed about these products, is one of adequate but not exemplary. Therefore - what other measurements can be done on an IEM, to give us a good prediction of the quality of its audio reproduction? Impulse Response, Waterfall. ? what else should we be also measuring, that would correlate better with what listeners are hearing?

 

[OK1]

I recommend only the AS24 as a tuning version, in the out-of-the-box configuration all switches were set to "on" and the sound was too bright for me. You can adjust the FR with 8 DIP switches per side. I suspect that the normal AS24 version is tuned to bright.

Good to know. Thanks.

 

[herr.jemine]

I'd say that with 0.02%-0.08% distortion at 96dB they can handle an equalizer quite well.

what are your favorite EQ settings for the Zero2 - and what kind of music should I listen to with it - I want to compare
I would like to use the UAPP if you think it is suitable for this and use the built-in EQ / PEQ

 

[LoFiAudiophile]

. Both of these IEMs have great frequency response, and low distortion, yet the overwhelming impression I get, from many personal opinions expressed about these products, is one of adequate but not exemplary. Therefore - what other measurements can be done on an IEM, to give us a good prediction of the quality of its audio reproduction? Impulse Response, Waterfall. ? what else should we be also measuring, that would correlate better with what listeners are hearing?

Distortion is fairly non-subjective metric, but frequency response is not. Speakers’ frequency response is easy - they just need flat frequency response. IEMs need to correspond to a curve on which really the only consensus is that there needs to be a dip in mid-region to account for perceptual gain, but where and how much is dependent on individual anatomy (and hearing loss!). Then you have to worry about seal and fit - which is again very personal (glasses, ear canal size…).

I just get IEM/headphones that have 1) low inherent distortion, and 2) non-crazy frequency response, and then Eq them to my liking. You may find an IEM that is naturally tuned close to your individual anatomy and fit, but it’s unlikely and frankly with great Eq solutions like BTR7/Qudelix-5K/Neutron device- not worth wasting time on.

 

[OK1]

T10 Update :

Cable : Still getting used to the fit, ears canal and behind the ears on one ear are a bit sore. Behind the ears, is cos of the woven cable, where the plastic surrounding the 4 woven cables, which should provide a shaper for the behind the ear portion of the cable, are so thin, that the roughness of the 4 cores inside the outer plastic covering, on this portion of the cable, can be felt by my outer ear. In the initial period of using these cables, they must have rubbed with friction against the back of one of my ears a bit too much, as I was adjusting the IEM in the ear canal and also attempting to adjust the cable behind the ears.

I do recall watching a video about this on Youtube, before I bought it, but did not fully appreciate what the video was highlighting. I think I'll get used to it, and the soreness will heal, cos I no longer adjust the cable behind the ears as much, since I am getting more familiar with the insertion process with the T10's.

Fit : I have have to change the process of insertion to :

1. Open mouth, to increase the size of ear canal, the jaws muscles etc, etc, extend the size (diameter) of the outer ear canal
2. Insert IEM
3. Close mouth

This process rather than trying to force the IEM into my canals, when my mouth is closed, reducing any friction.

The process also seems to result in a better fit, that is less prone to the IEM slipping out.

Still using the largest ZVX ear tips with the T10, instead of the ear tips that came with the T10. There is a part of the T10 casing which has made a part of one outer ear sore, could be excessive rubbing against that part of the ear, as I was adjusting to this IEM, hopefully that will heal over the next few days.

With the change in eartips, I get a good fit, excellent seal, and isolation, it totally cancels out the fan noise from my laptop (my fan never stops !) So the seal must now be very good. But more difficult to hear the wife when she calls !!!

One more effect of a proper seal - I hear all the internal sounds in my head, neck and chest/shoulders, as I move my head, neck, flex shoulders, jaws, whatever, breathe heavily, all manner of grumblings including my heart beat, reminds me of what being in an anechoic chamber could be like., where the room is so quiet, that we can now hear our own internal sounds. Impressive. Really impressive.

Finally Realism - have you ever had this phenomenon where the bell rings, and you think is your real door bell, but it was something from the television. And you are so shocked with how good a TV speaker must be, to pull off that kind of illusion. Yes I have gotten up to open the door, on at least 2 occasions, thinking it was a real door bell ringing at my door. That was over 12 years ago.

The T10's have done a similar thing. I'm watching a Youtube video, and something moves or a noise is made in the video, e.g some small object dropping on the presenter's table or some sound in the background, and I look around me to see what dropped, cos its so strange, and then realise - oh, the sound is coming from Youtube. It has happened a few times, especially listening to IEM reviewers who typically present with objects on a table/desk, which is also how I seat to listen to all my audio/music. Yeah the T10 has deceived me to think that the virtual was real. That did not happen with the KZ ZVX, nor with the CCA CRA.

 

[OK1]

There is absolutely no deficiency of Bass on the T10s. Once you have a good seal. It's tight, deep, enveloping, and clear. But it only reproduces bass, when there is bass in the recording. If there is no bass, you hear nothing in that region of the audio. But if there is bass, it totally slams, powerful, solid, enveloping according to what is in the recording.

Here is a humongous example with synth bass(from a Youtube demo). The T10 reproduces it effortlessly, What you hear is what is in the audio. Which leaves me with the impression that somehow our hearing has been compensating for a lot of music that does not really have that much bass, or we have not accepted that such music is really not that bassy - if we are the analytical kind, who want to hear the truth. So if its not bassy, that is a source issue, nothing to do with the T10, which is clearly the bassiest thing I have ever put on on my head. But not Dr Dre Beats headphones, kind of bass which adds bass to everything, regardless of what is actually there.

 

[Tell]

what are your favorite EQ settings for the Zero2 - and what kind of music should I listen to with it - I want to compare
I would like to use the UAPP if you think it is suitable for this and use the built-in EQ / PEQ

At the moment I'm running something like this, two small peaks following Amirs suggestion (not sure yet if I need those or not though) and also a low-shelf for slightly more sub and a high-shelf for slightly more "air". I haven't been running these for that long though so I might alter this later.

I'm listening to this kind of music, sounds very spacious to me using the 7Hz Zero2

 

[herr.jemine]

At the moment I'm running something like this, two small peaks following Amirs suggestion (not sure yet if I need those or not though) and also a low-shelf for slightly more sub and a high-shelf for slightly more "air". I haven't been running these for that long though so I might alter this later.

thanks, I'll listen to it over the next few days and try it out

 

[OK1]

One more observation on the T10. About 9 years ago, I got into the hobby of measuring speakers with a measuring microphone, with REW (Room equalisation Wizard), and using corrective impulse responses to adjust the frequency of my studio speakers.

Beyond music, simply listening to Youtube documentaries, with lots of spoken voice, reminds me of that improvement to my speakers, where I could much better hear the impact of compressors and limiters., that "flat" feeling that you hear when dynamics are limited, in modern audio production., like something is being held back, on the loud segments. My corrected speakers made this phenomenon so easy to hear.

I'm getting the same experience with the ARTTI T10's. So easy to hear dynamics with them, like night and day.

 

[InfiniteJester]

So are you being serious though when you say something like the ZVX destroys an AKG 702?
I mean that’s kinda been my experience too where the cheap Truthear Gate with deeper insertion tips runs circles around my HD650. But I almost feel gaslit in a way. Like it’s some kinda fluke or my ears are broken. Like I can’t trust my brain lol and I need some audiophile with 20+ years of experience to tell me what an idiot I am and why.

I have, and used to love, my AKG 702. Nowadays, it gets zero use. No use at all. I even prefer the Kefine Delci over the AKG 702.

Even cheap IEMs sound so good, with tremendous bass and good isolation with so little distortion, that the only disadvantage is soundstage, which you can make as large as you want with DSPs.

 

[OK1]

I have, and used to love, my AKG 702. Nowadays, it gets zero use. No use at all. I even prefer the Kefine Delci over the AKG 702.

Even cheap IEMs sound so good, with tremendous bass and good isolation with so little distortion, that the only disadvantage is soundstage, which you can make as large as you want with DSPs.

Please, what DSP are you referring to here?

 

[OK1]

I had a look at the IEM's which have been reviewed on Audio Science Review(ASR). Having had a very positive experience purchasing products based purely on measurements on ASR, a DAC dongle and a headphone amp, as well as price/value for money - bought on sale, while there are not many IEMS reviewed on ASR, I thought - why not take the same approach, and see what the shortlist would be like. In no particular order.

IEMs

1. Truthear Crinacle Zero (the Blue one)
2. Truthear Crinacle Zero Red
3. Moondrop Chu 2
4. 7Hz Zero
5. 7Hz Zero 2
6. Hidizs MP145

Headphones

1. Dan Clarke Stealth
2. Sennheiser HD800s

In varying degrees, there is a common suggestion, that all ear listening devices, can sound even better with some corrective EQ but all of the above provide an acceptably good quality listen, rivalling the best speakers, with or without EQ.

If I will be buying any more IEM's it will most likely be one of these. But it may take a while cos especially with a bit of EQ, the Artti T10, represents such good value and has transformed my listening experience.

It would have been nice to have some KZ/CCA IEMs measured, just to see how they fare, there's only one measured by AmirM, which had a bit of distortion, so I excluded it from the shortlist above.

 

[OK1]

Temptation. Resistance is futile. Ali Express, CCA Polaris, currently about $10 to $12, depending on the discount AliExpress gives you. Looking forward to receiving it.

It was very difficult to say NO.

 

[OK1]

This IEM habit can become addictive. Just totalled up my expenditure. Over £110 of total orders in 2 months. One needs to add these things up, it adds up quickly. If I was asked to spend £100 on a single item, it would be a hard sell, but the drip feed - £2 or £3 here e.g for cases, £7 to £11 per budget KZ, on another item, £30 for a DAC, a planar for £40+ and individually, it is small expenses, but one has to be careful. Must stop spending. Consolation is - I can look at the expense so far as - learning curve expenses. Investment to learn what's out there. Is there any other way I could have learnt what each of these pieces of gear sound like - unfortunately not. Benefit - now have a variety of gear to make informed comparisons., and have gear that serves as a reference, to better understand what reviewers and contributors are describing or measuring. Every learning curve has some sunk cost in time/money or both.

 

[markanini]

Just don't get Truthear Hexa, it will force you to look at the $200+ range for a substantial upgrade

 

[Mr Swing King]

Just don't get Truthear Hexa, it will force you to look at the $200+ range for a substantial upgrade

I really don’t see anything on the iem market that beats something like the Zero 2…and I own the Hexa myself
Mo money gives you a prettier oftentimes more colourful shell and so forth..but for sheer sound quality? There truly is no correlation between price and performance.

 

[markanini]

I really don’t see anything on the iem market that beats something like the Zero 2…and I own the Hexa myself
Mo money gives you a prettier oftentimes more colourful shell and so forth..but for sheer sound quality? There truly is no correlation between price and performance.

Haven't tried Zero 2. I tried the $150 Nova and prefer $80 Hexa. I've tried Etymotic ER4S which costs $300 that I didn't like much. I can't comment on things I haven't tried in person. Maybe there is a set for $400 that I would like better than Hexa, maybe not. I'm not in any hurry to find out.