IEM's - Where do diminishing returns start - cost wise? $10, $15, $20, $30, $50, $200, etc, etc

[OK1]

I've been on my own journey, rabbit hole for a good IEM here., and my 1st and only IEM is a CCA CRA, which I have a lot of respect for. I understand its the 2nd incarnation of this model, cos I bought and received mine, within the most rece's nt month. It was bought on a whim for approx £11(total cost), cos I could afford to not cry, at that price, in case it was a dud, I'd accept my loss and lick my wounds. My ongoing journey is discussed here :

June 2024 - Need a good transparent sounding IEM - budget $60 max

For critical and/or casual listening. I am not a bass head. Suggestions please. I may have asked this on some other threads, but the market keeps changing, so a refresher is needed. If there was anything like a flat frequency, with no emphasis on any frequency, that would be my preference...

audiosciencereview.com

I was about to start this thread, then I fortuitously discovered the recently published review of the Moondrop Chu II :

Moondrop Chu II IEM Review

This is a review, listening tests, EQ and detailed measurements of the Moondrop Chu II In-Ear Monitor. It is on kind loan from a member and costs just $19. Compared to some other IEMs I have tested, these are lighter weight due to lack of extra metallic parts. They are also a bit smaller which...

www.audiosciencereview.com

1st thing about this review is - I love that low distortion. That's key information, that I can rely on, that means a lot to me.

But after I read this (see below - apologies for the title which is not one that this forum condones, but that's not within my control), I'm asking myself, with the competition so fierce, what do the IEM's above $25 add?

If I give an example, in the world of DAC's. I think a DAC - dongle or desktop, with a THD+N better than SINAD of -115, is more than good enough. i.e SINAD of -115(A weighted or NOT), to me is good enough. More than good enough. And there are devices costing less than $50 which achieve this. So why spend more? Nothing wrong with spending more, it's your money after all, but any thing better is probably inaudibly better.

So these are my thoughts also. an IEM less than $30 is measuring so well, on distortion, is there any point in spending more? Hoping this can be an insightful discussion, that gets to the bottom of this justification, to spend more - or NOT to spend more, than about $50 on an IEM. My point is - is the $50 over twice as good as the $20 IEM, and the value remains worth the extra cost? My key criteria is sound quality, and the only other criteria would be manufacturing quality/reliability(these two are correlated)

This is a three part article, from another review site, which makes informative, amusing, entertaining reading. Eye opening.

Why So Cheap? The Story Of Chi-Fi Earphones (Part 1) • Music For The Masses

A brief history of Chinese Chi-Fi earphones, part 1 (of 3).

www.audioreviews.org

Why So Cheap? The Story Of Chi-Fi Earphones (Part 2) • Music For The Masses

A brief history of Chinese Chi-Fi earphones, part 2.

www.audioreviews.org

Why So Cheap? - The Story Of Chi-Fi (Part 3) • Music For The Masses

A brief history of Chinese Chi-Fi earphones, part 3.

www.audioreviews.org

 

[Dunring]

Everyone should have the $9 Apple 3.5mm adapter (U.S. version), the Yincrow X6 ear buds, and 7hz Zero:2 IEMs just so they can have a baseline how good something can sound for so little money. For headphones Theiaudio Ghost sets the benchmark of Sennheiser HD600/650 tuning for $119 MSRP or currently $52 on the Aliexpress sale. I just got a second pair, and might order a third at that price.

 

[herr.jemine]

well I think it's not just about FR and distortion, if you compare a HD650 with a Hifiman Sundara you will find that both are very good headphones, but they both sound completely different, the structure of the stage and the effect of the sound - and you can't make that dependent on the value, IEMs are not the same as IEMs, there are different technologies that are used in both the low end and the hi-end range - to say in general that a $20 IEM is the pinnacle of creation might be true for you, but it's absolutely not good to generalize from yourself to others

 

[DVDdoug]

I don't know about IEMs but I assume that they are like headphones in-that you don't exactly get "diminishing returns", but that there is almost no correlation between price and sound quality. With headphones, You can spend more... a lot more... and sometimes get worse sound quality.

 

[herr.jemine]

I don't know about IEMs but I assume that they are like headphones in-that you don't exactly get "diminishing returns", but that there is almost no correlation between price and sound quality. With headphones, You can spend more... a lot more... and sometimes get worse sound quality.

nope,the topic is not that simple:

Different Types of Drivers in IEMs

In-Ear Monitors, Headphones, or Speakers, whatever your medium of audio enjoyment might be, the core sound performance will always depend upon the quality of the driver used in them. When it comes to IEMs and Headphones, there are different types of drivers that are currently being used in them...

conceptkart.com

 

[OK1]

Everyone should have the $9 Apple 3.5mm adapter (U.S. version), the Yincrow X6 ear buds, and 7hz Zero:2 IEMs just so they can have a baseline how good something can sound for so little money. For headphones Theiaudio Ghost sets the benchmark of Sennheiser HD600/650 tuning for $119 MSRP or currently $52 on the Aliexpress sale. I just got a second pair, and might order a third at that price.

I'm still relatively new to IEM's, a novice really.

My dongle search eventually led to acquiring the Apple dongle US version, and I would agree, great plug and play dongle for anyone listening on a computer, as I do predominantly. Incredible value, and sound quality that is not "bad". This device or its European version, has objective measurements, published by credible sources. I will add though, I subsequently acquired a Tempotec Sonata BHD, which objectively measures a fair bit better than the Apple dongle, and while some may say its placebo or bias, while I have not done a blind test, cos I can't - its just me, when I swap back to the Apple dongle, there is something less resolving about the Apple dongle. As one would describe a TV image, the BHD has blacker blacks, its discernibly to me - definitely clearer than the Apple dongle. No contest. But of course this is my subjective opinion.

So this is one example where - Apple dongle - a relatively negligible expense for many(who live in developed economies), is a good buy, but here I would stretch that baseline a bit, from my own experience - with the following advantages

1. Something better than the Apple dongle - would work more easily with Android phones, without needing to use any special app to deliver high end audio.
2. Access to audio with higher sampling rates and DSD.
3. Having an ASIO driver on Windows.
4. Better converters with better objective measurements = better sound quality
5. A more powerful headphone amp, for those who may wish to use over headphones instead of an IEM, which need a bit more power or much more power than most IEMs.
6. For some reason I have not gotten the microphone input on the Apple dongle to work. - the BHD albeit does not have an ADC, and therefore does not have a microphone input.

I'm estimating that this optimal baseline for dongles, would cost about $50, but I'll be back to, based only on specs, not based on what I own, suggest one. It would have been the BHD or similar, but this does not have a microphone input enabled.


I'm ok with the BHD for critical listening, but I am still making up my mind about which other dongle to get for making calls, or joining meetings on my phone or desktop, via Skype/Zoom, WhatsApp. etc.

 

[OK1]

Everyone should have the $9 Apple 3.5mm adapter (U.S. version), the Yincrow X6 ear buds, and 7hz Zero:2 IEMs just so they can have a baseline how good something can sound for so little money. For headphones Theiaudio Ghost sets the benchmark of Sennheiser HD600/650 tuning for $119 MSRP or currently $52 on the Aliexpress sale. I just got a second pair, and might order a third at that price.

I almost went ahead with an impulse buy on either an HD 600 or a 650, but without the opportunity of a direct comparison, I have no real clue from an objective measurement, if I'd be better served by purchasing something else, such as a Hifiman HE400se or Sundara. Such a difficult thing reading opinions on the web, most which are subjective or limited to frequency response charts, not based on common methods of measurement, which don't really tell one that much. One half of the reviewers say the 650 is better than the 600 or 600 is better than the 650. Confusion.

There are so many models of headphones and IEM's, it's a bit of a nightmare choosing.. Ethically I also hate to purchase a set of products simply to compare them, and return almost all except the one I decided to keep.

I am wary of the hype of long established industry standards like the AKG K701, AKG K702, Sennheiser HD 600/650, etc, etc. I once used a pair of AKG Q701's to demo keyboards at a music store. Bright the Q701's were - definitely bright. I find it hard to believe that in over 10 years, material science has remained static, so static that these over the ear "dinosaurs" are still the standards by which other headphones should be compared. I own an AKG K702 - almost 10 years with me. I certainly hope the current threshold where diminishing returns starts, sounds better than the AKG K702, which was once amongst the State of the Art headphones.

 

[mc.god]

For headphones Theiaudio Ghost sets the benchmark of Sennheiser HD600/650 tuning for $119 MSRP or currently $52 on the Aliexpress sale. I just got a second pair, and might order a third at that price.

50$ at Linsoul at the moment, i have a 6$ coupon, seriously thinking of getting one even though I almost no more use over ear headphones.

50 minutes later...
Ok, order placed, for 43€ they should be worth even if i'll use them once a year.

 

[muza_1]

Where do diminishing returns start for me it starts at the TRN Orca ($11) or even the KZ-Dfi ($5) (and a bit of EQ) (both AliExperss sales) but getting there cost me a hell lot more, a trip up to the price ladder and back, was it worth it, hell no, I should have listen to people more knowledgeable than me at the time and the damage would have been far less, a few different low-cost (-$50) sets should do the trick. One just need to step away form the all the hype and forget all about FOMO.

Everyone should have the $9 Apple 3.5mm adapter (U.S. version)

For all of us Android users the Fiio Jade Audio JA11 dongle should do fine for around the same price and it has a customizable 5 band parametric EQ.

 

[OK1]

For all of us Android users the Fiio Jade Audio JA11 dongle should do fine for around the same price and it has a customizable 5 band parametric EQ.

Thanks.

I had been primed to buy the Fiio KA11, but fortunately by accident discovered that it had some issues reported by users, and DongleMadness on Youtube confirmed that there were reliability issues with this dongle.

This Fiio Audio JA11 :

1. This is news to me. Looks extremely recent, definitely was not available, or announced about March/April 2024, when I was in the throes of my dongle search. Apparently released in June 2024
2. It is not a dealbreaker, but it took a while to find the ASIO driver for Windows, albeit the landing page still does not include the JA11 explicitly in the list of supported dongles.

JA11 FAQ EN

Website description

www.jadeaudio.com

3. On AliExpress there are customer reviews with reported imbalance issues on smartphones, apparently one user reports this is resolved via a firmware update. available here

https://forum.fiio.com/note/showNoteContent.do?id=202406211150090736905&tid=77

4. There are no measured specs or published specs by the manufacturer.

I had planned to get one more dongle for meetings and phone calls, cos I could not get the microphone to work on Apple dongle on Windows, and my daily driver dongle the Tempotec Sonata BHD does not support microphone input.

I'll watch this on the web, to be sure it's a stable reliable product 1st, and especially look forward to reading some published specs, before I buy. Not expensive. Hoping it sounds even better than the Apple dongle. The customisable EQ is definitely a bonus.

 

[Mr Swing King]

I don't know about IEMs but I assume that they are like headphones in-that you don't exactly get "diminishing returns", but that there is almost no correlation between price and sound quality. With headphones, You can spend more... a lot more... and sometimes get worse sound quality.

My thoughts exactly.
Personally I find the iems at around 20-50$ to be about as good as it gets. Throwing more money at a pair of iems may upgrade the build quality but more often than not, at least from my viewpoint, the sound quality takes a backseat or gets a weird “audiophile tuning”.

 

[OK1]

Where do diminishing returns start for me it starts at the TRN Orca ($11) or even the KZ-Dfi ($5) (and a bit of EQ) (both AliExperss sales) but getting there cost me a hell lot more, a trip up to the price ladder and back, was it worth it, hell no, I should have listen to people more knowledgeable than me at the time and the damage would have been far less, a few different low-cost (-$50) sets should do the trick. One just need to step away form the all the hype and forget all about FOMO.

Arriving at a happy point with a dongle I was happy about, took a while, so I can identify with your own journey on IEMs. Hearing about the TRN Orca for the 1st time. And shocked - KZ DFI for $5 !. Will check these out.

With dongles, it was a bit easier, in spite of the huge number of options. I had a spreadsheet with about 30 parameters, it was a huge amount of work to put this together - laborious, and I must have collated the details of at least 20 devices I was interested in, dongles, desktops and headphone amps. But it helped me more easily compare, and contrast, and take a decision. Why? There is so much more data out there for DAC's, and in all fairness, more of it, for those who care about measurements, is just that - measurements, that one can trust. Now - just by looking at the specs, one can have a fair idea of what to expect (assuming the published measurements are accurate).

With headphones/IEM's, some of the info is so subjective. Only ASR reviews by Amir, seem to provide distortion measurements, in addition to FR(Frequency response). Then of course since everyone is measuring according to different standards, FR is not easy to compare from one reviewer to another, and so many variations can occur in the tests , different tips, different insertion depths, different qualities of sealing.

And you mention FOMO. With a few IEM's released every month, claiming to be better that the previous generation, one is wondering - am I missing something? The earphone manufacturers are having a field day. Once upon a time I had one headphone and that was it - an AKG K702. And for what that cost the buyer, cos it was my birthday present 10 years ago, I could get 10 budget IEMs today. It's more difficult to be tempted by FOMO when a headphone/IEM is over $100, but @ less than $20, very tempting.

Really hard making up one's mind, cos the options are too many., and not that much objective info to inform a buying decision.

 

[muza_1]

I don't think distortion is a big problem in today IEM market (especially with single DD) with "reputable" brands the problem is that even with measurements you only get an approximation because of ear canal anatomy, fitting and the measurement its self (it has its own problems on top) but it's a good stating point is a hassle but with IEM you have to try them yourself. I wish it was as easy as it is for speakers.

The D-fi was $30 when it came out last year, is really well built and sound is decent for the original price.
As for the Orca I saw them recommended in some site but I don't remember where, then I saw they were $11 on an AliExpress sale, I order them because based on the graph they should be to my liking. I think they were also $30 when they came out about half a year ago.

I have the D-Fi version with no switches which has about a 1dB more of bass making them almost identical but in reality the Orca sounds more spacious, brighter, less bassy with more present mids and somewhat cleaner to me. I like them more than the D-Fi.

If you can spend a little more The CCA Trio/KZ Vader balanced is better than both if you like a Harman-ish type of sound they are around $20 when on sale.

 

[thunderchicken]

The truthear zero is endgame sound quality for about 60 bucks with tax and shipping (US). I'm sure you could find others, but they make compromises on either sound quality or build quality. These are great in both spaces.

 

[cookiefactory]

For fun I've just ordered a pair of Truthear Crinacle Zero Reds to play around with. Really looking forward to comparing them with my daily drivers as I have no doubt the Chi-Fi IEM revolution was, well, revolutionary.

Anyone use these with a bluetooth adapter they'd like to recommend?

 

[markanini]

For fun I've just ordered a pair of Truthear Crinacle Zero Reds to play around with. Really looking forward to comparing them with my daily drivers as I have no doubt the Chi-Fi IEM revolution was, well, revolutionary.

Anyone use these with a bluetooth adapter they'd like to recommend?

How much were you looking to spend?

 

[thunderchicken]

For fun I've just ordered a pair of Truthear Crinacle Zero Reds to play around with. Really looking forward to comparing them with my daily drivers as I have no doubt the Chi-Fi IEM revolution was, well, revolutionary.

Anyone use these with a bluetooth adapter they'd like to recommend?

I use the Qudelix, and ES100, and a bluewave get interchangeably. My preference is for the Qudelix because I like the EQ better but all three are great. The bluewave is the easiest to use and the ES100 is the least outlandish In terms of looks. Something I don’t like about the Qudelix is the actual buttons- it’s really hard to tell what’s going on with the buttons being nearly identical and flashing either red or blue at you. The soft is great, the hardware UI really sucks.

 

[kemmler3D]

Diminishing returns means you get less than 2x the improvement in quality for spending 2x the money. And for every 2x $$ beyond that, it's even less improvement in quality.

The problem with defining the breakpoint is that it depends on your personal evaluation of "quality". One man's 50% better is another man's 10,000% better.

But I would personally agree with a lot of people in this thread that diminishing returns for IEMs sets in pretty quickly, probably before $100.

 

[Brian Hall]

Based on how good the Zero 2s sound I would say diminishing returns kick in at a little over $25.

 

[muza_1]

I tried multiple up to $150+ IEMs over the last years and the ones I liked more are all less than $50, there was nothing especial with expensive ones other than packaging, included accessories and hype surrounding them even low-cost ones are sturdy and well made some are better made than their expensive counterparts.

At least to me sound stage is not a thing all IEMs are more or less the same there are some differences in spaciousness but I think it has to do more with isolation, reflections and some other physical cues and I don't think those are planed in the design It happens in all price points, and can change person to person, tips used or insertion depth.
Also as long as there is no distortion I can hear the same detail with all IEMs on some of them certain frequencies are exacerbated and it can create the illusion of more detail.

Speed, muddiness, agility, etc, are all functions of frequency response.
I also have no idea how lush, refined, mature, grown up or elegant sounds like so I couldn't identify them in the expensive sets .