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IEM's - Where do diminishing returns start - cost wise? $10, $15, $20, $30, $50, $200, etc, etc

For $5-$7 (on sale) you should try the D-Fi.
With the Switch version ($7.50-$10) you can control the amount of bass, in the config with more bass it has about a dB less than the non switch version.
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I personally like it more than the ZVX and is better looking it has a metal shell too.
To me the D-Fi sounds close to the KiwiEars Cadenza.

*Also it has been some speculation that the driver in the ZVX is not the same as when it came out, I really don't care about the drama but to me it sounds bassier than the graph suggest (got mine on an AlieExpress sale about 2 months ago).
If I go ahead to buy the D-Fi, I'll end up buying the Castor, and probably three or four more from the KZ/CCA family in this price category, just to hear them for myself. Must discipline myself. IEMs are only a means to an end, to listen to the music/audio.

I think we have to group the KZ/CCA products, into co-related families of products, and rather than buy many of them, pick one or two from each family.

I've already bought two from the single dynamic driver family - the CCA CRA and the KZ ZVX, giving me a good idea of their old driver and a more recent one. I may still in future "sample" more single DD IEMs but more likely will try my "ears" and pocket, on other product families, such as Dual DD, Hybrids, Planar Magnetics, etc, and take a lot more time and research to identify which to buy in each family. Having heard the ZVX, and "tuned" it via EQ, purchasing any other IEM, becomes a nice to have rather than a must have.

The CCA CRA is now consigned to "spare tyre" position in its IEM pouch bag.
 
Discovered from this video that the eartips, which I received are NOT the same as the foam tips, which were supplied with the KZ ZVX reviewed here :

KZ at it again, changing things mid stream !!

 
What will we do about KZ/CCA, with this reputed habit of changing their products mid stream? The challenge is - :
The problem is everyone does the same, recently I heard that the MP145 changed tuning but there was not a big reaction, for some reason everybody loves to hate KZ while giving others a pass.

One has to accept that - I will never have the best, cos there is always going to be one more headphone out there that I may never have heard for myself, even if I had all the money and time, to collect and listen to them all.

At the risk of missing out on so many wonderful IEM's, I think I'll stop with the ZVX, for now. Cos all I want to do now, is sit back and as time permits, listen to good music. I've forgotten I'm listening to a device, and my focus is on the audio/music. And in many cases hear the same albums - over and over again. The boredom factor seems to have reduced with the ZVX's. I can listen to things over and over and over and still want to hear them again. So now only two things to do - choose the music, adjust volume to taste, per track.
I think this is the healthier way too, I recently stopped but it cost me a bit, in money and anguish I just wanted an IEM that sounded natural but I fell into the trap, nothing is going to work for all music because of the huge variation in mixing and mastering, in the end I came to the conclusion that if I find something that sounds good and natural from the start, just stick to it and no go on comparing it, if after a while I found no glaring faults that's it, ears are going to get used to it.
 
The problem is everyone does the same, recently I heard that the MP145 changed tuning but there was not a big reaction, for some reason everybody loves to hate KZ while giving others a pass.
Now that is interesting. Quite interesting.

I think this is the healthier way too, I recently stopped but it cost me a bit, in money and anguish I just wanted an IEM that sounded natural but I fell into the trap, nothing is going to work for all music because of the huge variation in mixing and mastering, in the end I came to the conclusion that if I find something that sounds good and natural from the start, just stick to it and no go on comparing it, if after a while I found no glaring faults that's it, ears are going to get used to it.

I've spent almost an entire night, listening to a small subset of my music references, which I had curated on Spotify playlists. While my purchase of the KZ ZVX was based on research, and opinions of a few reviewers. While listening to music and sometimes pausing to revisit Youtube reviews, and read text based reviews, a few thoughts, let me know, I'm getting closer, with the KZ ZVX. It's difficult, based on what I now know that the IEM I am listening to may not be the same, and the eartips I am using are definitely NOT the same as that used by many reviewers. Mine are silicon tips while most reviewers received foam tips. SO I have to take the many sometimes conflicting opinions with a pinch of salt.

1. The comfort and fit, for me are like no other. I have struggled with getting the right fit a whole lot on some JVC IEM type things I was using before the CCA CRA's. Fit improved with the large ear tips that came with the CCA CRA's. Now the large tips that came with the KZ ZVX are the most comfortable, almost no pressure on my ear canals. The weight is negligible, I think I could risk going to bed with these in my ears, but will not cos I really do everything possible to preserve my ears. I'm an audio engineer.

2. They take to EQ - very well. Very small changes in EQ are audible, I only use three parametric EQ bands, but find I can tune them very finely, with noticeable changes, in the order of 0.2dB, or as low a 0.1dB difference in the EQ settings of each band. So I can dial in exactly the overall preference I like. I'll spend the next few days, as I listen, tweaking to taste. As I listen to a variety of music. I'm in a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation), so I can save different EQ settings and switch between them.

I think, no matter how good the headphone is, advanced headphone users, who know how to use an EQ, will benefit from some personal tweaks, to suit their own personal preferences. I do not mean huge EQ variations, but small broad frequency changes.

3. I have never heard so much information - detail and resolution, from any speaker or headphone. Typically many albums, after hearing them once, you want to move on to some other music. Every album I have heard on the ZVX, I want to hear again and again. The intelligibility of words is superb. COmplex music with lots of instruments, no problem, I still hear everything.

4. Dynamics - where the songs are recorded with a lot of dynamics - difference between loud and quiet segments , e.g on Miles Davis - Kind of Blue, it is so easy to hear this variation which occurs over and over, between different sections of songs, and within phrases of a musical instrument - so lifelike. And this headphone also show me so easily how almost all modern music has been compressed in dynamics, compared to what it could have sounded like. I've had for a while a conviction that teh best way to evaluate a listening device is NOT with highly polished compressed modern music, but with raw uncompressed audio, that was recorded without any attempt to control the dynamics, in any way.

5. Listening Volume, I can listen at both louder and quieter levels, with no loss of detail. impressive.

6. Insertion Depth - small changes in insertion depth do NOT yield huge changes in frequency response. On the CCA CRA, it was more difficult to get this right. I'd regularly fiddle with the insertion depth..

7. What you referred to - the difference in mixing and production sonics, between different tracks. the ZVX shows a pretty glaring difference between tracks, and between the texture of instruments on the same track - e.g on Miles Davis - Kind of blue. Sadly it also shows me that a lot of recent music (in the most recent 20 years) leaves a lot to be desired, just a bit too much compression and EQ, that has altered the natural tone of what was recorded. This variation, which I can hear well, tells me that the headphone is one I can trust. So easy to hear clearly the tone that each mixing engineer had been going for on a track, on the track overall and on individual instruments or voices. SO easy to hear the compression/limiting on the "record" i.e track. So easy.

A lot of what one may think is "brightness" is not coming from the headphone or IEM - that is the IEM revealing the truth, lots of music we listen to has a sonic signature of its own., and not one we may like - or have imagined would be so. But the IEM is showing me the truth. Lots of great music we listen to today, has been significantly compressed, and I am hearing this for the 1st time - A good example of an excellent album but which is compressed a bit more than one may have wanted to so do, The Imagine Project - Herbie Hancock. I'm hearing the "congestion" i.e compression and artificialness of the tone, on this album, for the 1st time.
 
Yes, and the more your ears get used to the IEM the more details you'll notice.

I like the tuning of the ZVX but to me they were a bit bass heavy, the D-Fi are too but to a lesser degree, physically (both) are a bit heavy and depending of the tips it can bother a bit after a time.

Now I mostly use the Kefine Delci (some cymbals can sound a bit bright and unnatural in some tracks) also they are the most comfortable IEMs I ever have.

I used EQ but after a while I just wanted something that can use with various sources without changing EQ settings every time hence the search for a natural IEM (but I might end EQing the Delci in the treble region though).
 
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"Where do diminishing returns start - cost wise?"

I did not read all the answers, but - super early, actually. The 7hz Zero (20$) is already so close to my more expensive IEMs that it can be seen as a matter of taste. I am also sure there are contenders which deliver similarly good sound for the same price (Chu II etc.).

What many people also do not understand that it is not only a diminishing return but that the best cheap IEMs are just straight up better than many IEMs for 1000$ and more by any objectively measurable parameter. The best 500$ IEMs are a hair better than the best 50$ IEMs, but many 500$ are not only "not better" but worse.

Headphone.com made a blind test with people who are not into audio.
The 40$ Kiwi Ears Cadenza beat other IEMs which were way pricier. I think it was the cheapest of the bunch.

I pay money for higher build quality/accessories, better isolation, but mainly out of nerdy interest to find my (personally) perfect sound signature. (Also, noise cancelling is still scaling with price if you want that.)

But I am aware that paying more than 40 for an IEM is not rational in our time. You could call it a kind of luxury, which is misleading because I am not rich. Or a nerdy hobby.
 
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Yes, and the more your ears get used to the IEM the more details you'll notice.

I like the tuning of the ZVX but to me they were a bit bass heavy, the D-Fi are too but to a lesser degree, physically (both) are a bit heavy and depending of the tips it can bother a bit after a time.

Now I mostly use the Kefine Delci (some cymbals can sound a bit bright and unnatural in some tracks) also they are the most comfortable IEMs I ever have.

I used EQ but after a while I just wanted something that can use with various sources without changing EQ settings every time hence the search for a natural IEM (but I might end EQing the Delci in the treble region though).
Insertion depth is the most significant factor I found on the ZVX for addressing the bass, and I did add a small low end shelf to cut out some bass, so I'm happy with the bass. In a way, I wish it had more, but that's because I have been so used to the CCA CRA. In my audition so far, I have not yet listened to bass heavy songs such as hip hop, but will soon.

Whether it is my ears or burn in, or the songs I am listening to, or the effect on hearing after a bit of sleep, the top end does not seem as harsh on the ZVX, this morning. I get the impression that I am beginning to reach the limit, of what a headphone can produce, and to hear any better, I now have to address my audio source.

Over several months, if I look at the entire audio chain, I have made incremental improvements. I've skipped some of the intermediate steps, in each of the following enhancement areas, of the audio path.

0. It does appear that our ability to hear clearly, may vary throughout the day. I may be wrong. Time I also took my health and exercise more seriously, and sleep, to maintain my ear health. Diet(what I eat - that I'm already doing very well with)

1. Learnt to use better tips, that fit better, and produce a better seal - very important to hear the bass better.

2. Learnt to fit them at a depth that improves the frequency response, and use this insertion depth to adjust the frequency response to my preference. Very small changes have a significant impact. Less so on the ZVX, cos with the stock tips I'm using, they are not the most isolating IEMs. But this helps with comfort. Less pressure on the ear canal.

3. Listening device (moved from some cheapie Sony ear buds, to the KZ ZVX)

4. Cable - now using the stock cables that come with the KZ ZVX.

5. DAC - went from the in-built DAC on my laptop to a TempoTec Sonata BHD

6. Learnt how to better adjust the volume level digitally on my computer (my main listening device)

7. Learnt how to EQ the audio to dial out the most offensive aspects of the headphone and maintain a few presets for each headphone.

8. Went from 48K and this is now upsampled to 96K, which adds a dash of extra clarity.

9. The source. I am now at the point where I think I've done the 80/20 on all other components of the audio chain, and there is probably little value in doing anything further on items 1 to 8 above. So what's left, is to improve the source.

Hitherto I've been listening to free Spotify. I recall comparing this to a trial I had on Tidal, and Tidal was audible better, even though I was not listening to the full lossless Tidal service.

So for any further realistic listening, of any critical kind, I think I can only make a proper impression, when listening to the lossless CD Quality or higher resolution versions of the source audio.

I think audio professionals and enthusiasts should think of this craft/hobby from an end to end perspective. So rather than just the headphone, the device at the end, one has to optimise the entire chain. It does make me wonder, what kind of limitations exist with the opinions of many users and reviewers, which are responsible for sometimes a diverse conflicting set of opinions on IEMs and headphones. It does not help that the manufacturers make changes to products along the way, which are not disclosed publicly, so one can only judge the product one has in one's own hand.

Best headphone in the world (i,e step 3), without attending to the other components in the chain, is counter productive. The British phrase, you cannot polish a turd (a polite word for brown matter). Question is - how much effort, time, diligence does one devote to each of these components. All of them have a contribution. The one thing that stands out is clearly the source. For me that is where the rabbit hole needs to dig deeper into. Cos that has now become my limiting factor - Moving away from free Spotify for any critical listening. And then and only then will I bother to consider improving anything else. What's the point in "upgrading" from a single DD IEM to anything else - Planar Magnetic, Hybrid, etc, which will only show me exactly how $hitty my source is?

That's how I feel about the KV ZVX. It's beginning to show me the limits of my source. I really cannot have any further valid impressions, when I'm feeding it a compromised lossy source. So for this reason, no more IEM purchases for me, until this compromise is solved.

It's been a bit of a rabbit hole. So casual listening on Spotify - checked. But critical listening, cannot be achieved if my source is compromised. I remember comparing Spotify and the original CD's of a Black Eyed Peas album, and one from Jesse J, about a decade ago. like chalk and cheese. As they say in one 7up advert, the difference was clear.
 
"Where do diminishing returns start - cost wise?"

I did not read all the answers, but - super early, actually. The 7hz Zero (20$) is already so close to my more expensive IEMs that it can be seen as a matter of taste. I am also sure there are contenders which deliver similarly good sound for the same price (Chu II etc.).

What many people also do not understand that it is not only a diminishing return but that the best cheap IEMs are just straight up better than many IEMs for 1000$ and more by any objectively measurable parameter. The best 500$ IEMs are a hair better than the best 50$ IEMs, but many 500$ are not only "not better" but worse.

Headphone.com made a blind test with people who are not into audio.
The 40$ Kiwi Ears Cadenza beat other IEMs which were way pricier. I think it was the cheapest of the bunch.

I pay money for higher build quality/accessories, better isolation, but mainly out of nerdy interest to find my (personally) perfect sound signature. (Also, noise cancelling is still scaling with price if you want that.)

But I am aware that paying more than 40 for an IEM is not rational in our time. You could call it a kind of luxury, which is misleading because I am not rich. Or a nerdy hobby.

I have come to a similar conclusion. I cannot afford $1000 + earphones anyway, so within budget, definitely not likely to spend any more than $50 on a single IEM, and as stated in a previous post, what's the point in purchasing a good or better IEM, when the fundamental issue - listening on lossy audio via Spotify or Youtube, which has already compromised what I am hearing anyway. Will stick with the KZ ZVX, for the foreseeable future.

I am already extremely satisfied with its looks, the ALL metal shell, weight, fit. and for the price, quite pleased with the improvement on sonics, over every other listening device I own.
 
I have come to a similar conclusion. I cannot afford $1000 + earphones anyway, so within budget, definitely not likely to spend any more than $50 on a single IEM, and as stated in a previous post, what's the point in purchasing a good or better IEM, when the fundamental issue - listening on lossy audio via Spotify or Youtube, which has already compromised what I am hearing anyway. Will stick with the KZ ZVX, for the foreseeable future.

I am already extremely satisfied with its looks, the ALL metal shell, weight, fit. and for the price, quite pleased with the improvement on sonics, over every other listening device I own.
As an enthusiast, I'll still enjoy learning about ALL the IEM's out there. Cos that's good education, for whatever I may consider would be an upgrade the KZ ZVX. But no new purchases until I am listening to at least CD quality sources.
 
One thing to be careful about with KZ that I’m sure you’re already aware of is that they *will* stealth revise their products. I believe it may have already happened with the ZVX where they started stuffing them with their new 4th gen EDX drivers or something like that.
That is the one major reason I really refuse to recommend KZ but other than that? I mean even their revised stuff is still good and hits a generic chifi “Harman” target decently well. Glad you like them, just be careful as the models you get today will most likely not be the ones they sell tomorrow…(seriously they just need to discontinue their old crap if they run out of materials)
 
One thing to be careful about with KZ that I’m sure you’re already aware of is that they *will* stealth revise their products. I believe it may have already happened with the ZVX where they started stuffing them with their new 4th gen EDX drivers or something like that.
That is the one major reason I really refuse to recommend KZ but other than that? I mean even their revised stuff is still good and hits a generic chifi “Harman” target decently well. Glad you like them, just be careful as the models you get today will most likely not be the ones they sell tomorrow…(seriously they just need to discontinue their old crap if they run out of materials)
Thanks.

I was so absolutely sure that the single DD on my KZ ZVX was definitely NOT the same single DD on my CCA CRA 2023 revision. Definitely NOT. Which seems to agree with your assertions.

The other thing I am 100% sure of is that the original KZ ZVX packaging included black foam tips, and I was a bit concerned about that, but my packaging of the ZVX uses black silicon tips, think some call them spinfit, cos they have small cutouts at the tips.

For all the talk of gear, which I fully appreciate, I discovered the music of Joni Mitchell about 8 years ago. I just put on the track "Both Sides Now" from her 2020 album of the same title. And it brought tears to my eyes. Now that is what all this is about. Another WOW moment and that's on the compromised free Spotify.
 
What do I say? Got this in my inbox.

1720637656604.png
 
This does NOT affect the sonics. But I just noticed some of the black paint peeling on one earpiece of the KZ ZVX. Not acceptable, for an item I received 2 days ago, and definitely have not been rough with them in any way. Never put them in my pockets. So the paint quality is poor. I love the sound, so I'll not bother returning them, cos I really would hate to go back to the sonics of the CCA CRA's. I was not expecting this issue with the cosmetics.!
 
What do I say? Got this in my inbox.

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I guess you could say that price is a lil…SUS ;)
…I’ll see myself out now

edit: no for real though I’ve said in another thread I’ll say it again…we’re really just starting to split hairs here. A lot of cheap stuff adheres *very* well to a target in a way that no kilobuck gear could in 20+ years prior. All the audezes, focals, and JH audio customs in the world from 2012 backward simply just do not have this level of tuning competence from a measurement standpoint(i’d still love to hear them sometime)
For instance:Like the truthear gate(one of *many* cheapies) is $19 or so (not even on sale). I compared it to my hd650 and double checked just to be sure, just in case. They thrash em’. A freaking 20$ earbud. They look like they could be in a freaking apple commercial 12 years ago.
I compared them to my zero:reds to make sure I’m not going insane…the differences literally switching back and forth 10 seconds, critically listening to both? Minor. So minor in fact, nobody should be sending them DMs.

The last teeny tiny bit of sound quality that a human realistically should ever even be concerned about, audiophile, musician, etc.? Go see an audiologist and get your ears checked.
Beyond that? just learn to EQ.
 
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One thing to be careful about with KZ that I’m sure you’re already aware of is that they *will* stealth revise their products. I believe it may have already happened with the ZVX where they started stuffing them with their new 4th gen EDX drivers or something like that.
That is the one major reason I really refuse to recommend KZ but other than that? I mean even their revised stuff is still good and hits a generic chifi “Harman” target decently well. Glad you like them, just be careful as the models you get today will most likely not be the ones they sell tomorrow…(seriously they just need to discontinue their old crap if they run out of materials)

I thought it best to focus observations on the KZ ZVX, on its own thread here :


Let's just say I am shocked. I did as much research as I could, before buying the ZVX, but did not bother to check for any revisions. That's the 2nd time, I've been bitten by the bug of unanticipated changes. Whatever ZVX I'm listening to is better than the CCA CRA revision I bought without realising KZ worst practices.

But I think I've had enough of their malpractices. WHen I have gotten over the shock, I'll take a long while to revisit the issue, and I have to get an IEM, that I can trust, is the same as whatever the reviewers have reviewed. I bought based on reviews, and I'm listening to something that is definitely not that same as any reviews or any measured graphs.

For this to have happened to me twice is horrific. My fault I guess. Tempted by the low prices, reviews and marketing. No wonder their prices are low. They are cheating and selling a different product. !

The sadness for me is that ay attempt by me to EQ based on known measurements of stock ZVX's cannot apply to my own ZVX, cos they may have changed the driver!! Going through this with two KZ IEMs is just bad.
 
Has anyone compared side by side, 7HZ x Crinacle Zero: 2 and Truthear Nova? Any noticeable differences? Is it worth spending the extra cash?
Going beyond 7HZ x Crinacle Zero: 2, is there anything else worth spending the money?
 
Been thinking about the Harman in room curve for speakers, where there is an end result of a tilt upwards in the bass, which has become accepted as a preferred listening profile (or something similar). And tried an additional layer of EQ, to tilt the presentation towards a bit of bass. So two layers of EQ. One to fix issues in the default presentation of the earphone, and the second to tilt the EQ, a bit - Shelf at bottom and top end. For the KZ ZVX (my version based on the driver of the KZ EDZ lite/EDX ProX allegedly) the mids and highs in general can sound a bit too bright, and the bass too thin (depending on earpiece/ear tip insertion depth). This additional tilt helps to tone down the bright top and thin bottom, in a broad manner.

Resulting in a little bit more natural presentation. And have 3 presets of this 2nd layer of EQ, so I can dial in how much of the "room" curve I want., and turn off if I am super critical in my listening, for short periods. Sounds more natural with the tilt in place, like one is in the room with the artist. More comfortable for long listening sessions, with far less fatigue.
 

Some guidance, but the point about matching an IEM to your music, I do not really agree with, cos I'd rather have a neutralish IEM, that show me what's there
 
Been thinking about the Harman in room curve for speakers, where there is an end result of a tilt upwards in the bass, which has become accepted as a preferred listening profile (or something similar). And tried an additional layer of EQ, to tilt the presentation towards a bit of bass. So two layers of EQ. One to fix issues in the default presentation of the earphone, and the second to tilt the EQ, a bit - Shelf at bottom and top end. For the KZ ZVX (my version based on the driver of the KZ EDZ lite/EDX ProX allegedly) the mids and highs in general can sound a bit too bright, and the bass too thin (depending on earpiece/ear tip insertion depth). This additional tilt helps to tone down the bright top and thin bottom, in a broad manner.

Resulting in a little bit more natural presentation. And have 3 presets of this 2nd layer of EQ, so I can dial in how much of the "room" curve I want., and turn off if I am super critical in my listening, for short periods. Sounds more natural with the tilt in place, like one is in the room with the artist. More comfortable for long listening sessions, with far less fatigue.
The additional EQ tilt layer is now sounding a bit too soft and warm, and for critical listening, I disable it. So it's now only there to ensure more comfort on long listening sessions., providing insurance against fatigue, and giving my ears a rest.
 
There are a fair number of reviewers on Youtube and elsewhere, and it can be a huge effort comparing products, taking opinions from different reviewers. I discovered JaysAudio(see link below), recently and his reviews, seem to sound one of the most independent, to me. Not too lengthy, nor technical, easy to grasp in layman's language.

Furthermore he has links on his reviews, to comparison spreadsheets, and I have found his, the most readable and comprehensible, as well as somewhat comprehensive review comparison in one place. I also think he is pretty rigorous. Above all the info in his reviews look like something I can use in taking decisions. Spend some time on his Youtube channel and have a look at his comparison spreadsheet, and make up you own mind.

He covers a huge variety of IEMS, all the way to those with eye watering prices. The impression I get, from his reviews, is that the inflection point in the diminishing returns, is somewhere between $50 and $150. Below that price, the likelihood is one is dealing with real budget IEM's and spending a bit more may be advised, to get that buy once buy right IEM.

I do however think, from my own experience that the KZ/CCA products, could lower this to somewhere below $30. Why, I am extremely satisfied with my KZ ZVX. Extremely satisfied. Rather than favour one kind of music or another, it is very transparent, and just shows you what is there. A most satisfactory listen, that unfortunately is so revealing that it will make you discriminate what you listen to, cos it will show up anything that is less that spectacularly produced as exactly that. Wish he would cover some more of these products.

Unfortunately he does not cover many of the KZ/CCA, which I have no major issues with checking out, cos I am extremely pleased with my KZ ZVX (revised version) - with a bit of EQ, and proper placement in ear, wth the right size eartips., and am inclined to buy one or two more KZ/CCA's cos of my positive experience with the CCA CRA revised, and even more so with the ZVX which is astonishingly more accurate and balanced (this IEM scales with a few things - the source - better source better sound - by source I mean both the DAC/Headphone amp or DAC dongle, as well as the audio fed to it - how well the track was recorded and mixed and mastered). The ZVX separates the boys from the men. If anything sounds substandard, its the source and/or the audio itself. Superbly produces music just stands out, head and shoulders over everything else. And the ZVX, makes me want to listen and listen to music and has cured me from a period when I was jaded. It allows me hear very well into the music, if it does not sound so fantastic - that is cos the music is NOT that well done. Tempted to buy at least two or three more copies of the ZVX as a keepsake, that impressed.

 
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