I measured 10 subwoofers.

[Ilkka Rissanen]

The picture in the 1st post takes me back to the days @Ilkka Rissanen made same kind of open field sub tests in Finland, must have been about... 20 years ago.

Nearly 20 years ago! I did my tests around 2005-2007. I have been thinking about reposting all the data here since the original threads are long gone. Would you like to see my old measurements being posted here? I think there were around 50 subs total, both commercial and DIY.

 

[Soniclife]

Nearly 20 years ago! I did my tests around 2005-2007. I have been thinking about reposting all the data here since the original threads are long gone. Would you like to see my old measurements being posted here? I think there were around 50 subs total, both commercial and DIY.

Oh yes, please post, I'm sure lots of us would like that.

 

[MAB]

Nearly 20 years ago! I did my tests around 2005-2007. I have been thinking about reposting all the data here since the original threads are long gone. Would you like to see my old measurements being posted here? I think there were around 50 subs total, both commercial and DIY.

Without a doubt, I would love to see your test results reposted!

 

[Raitsa]

Nearly 20 years ago! I did my tests around 2005-2007. I have been thinking about reposting all the data here since the original threads are long gone. Would you like to see my old measurements being posted here? I think there were around 50 subs total, both commercial and DIY.

Oh yeah, please go ahead, I bought one of the tested subs from you, the HSU.

 

[DanielT]

Nearly 20 years ago! I did my tests around 2005-2007. I have been thinking about reposting all the data here since the original threads are long gone. Would you like to see my old measurements being posted here? I think there were around 50 subs total, both commercial and DIY.

Interesting. Above all, what has happened in these 20 years? Is today's subwoofer in the same price range better (or not) than the subwoofers of that time and if so, what is the reason?

It's absolutely worth a new thread in itself on that topic.

 

[saltanar]

Is better Arendal 1961 S or SVS SB2000 Pro? Other ones sealed subs better than those? I have 7.1 system with Dirac on a room size of 4x4.60 m

 

[Hellasärö]

Thanks for all this info. My remaining question is how much of all this is audible, apart from the obvious differences in spl at particular frequencies? I ask, because the logic behind the CEA metric is that all you need to know is how much undistorted output you get at particular frequencies.
I ask because I have three different subwoofers in my system, acquired at different moments in time but now playing together (main speakers are Quad 2805 electrostats high passed at 80 Hz): a B&W PV1d with dual opposed 8 inch drivers, a KEF Kube 8b, originally bought for my desk top system, and most recently a SVS SB2000 classic. The current set up uses MSO/2x4HD to equalize room response of the subs. When used individually the PV1d seemed to be tighest and cleanest, and I wondered why this could be, and if it was just an illusion.

If you have dipole speakers, like the Quad, you should try dipole/ripole subs as well. Gradient used to make a dipole sub for Quad ESL-63 (2nd and 3rd pic) .

If I have the time in the following few days, I can measure the difference between two sealed subs and two ripole subs in my setup (antimode 8033 corrected). My hunch is that the ringing (spectrogram) will be much less severe with the ripole subs and therefore, in your case, blend better with the Quads.

 

[Willem]

I know of the Gradient dipole sub, but it does not match the more recent Quad 2805, and I decided it was too large anyway. I did investigate Ripole subs, but decided that they too were quite large, and all seemed to be DIY designs. In the end I decided that the integration between the dipile Quads and sealed subs improved tremendously by properly equalizing the subs. The Quads being dipole speakers do not suffer room modes very much, and by equalizing the subs I managed to get them to sound much closer to the clean Quad dipoles. Right now I am pondering a fourth subwoofer, but before that I need to do more measurements and MSO experiments.

 

[Hellasärö]

I know of the Gradient dipole sub, but it does not match the more recent Quad 2805, and I decided it was too large anyway. I did investigate Ripole subs, but decided that they too were quite large, and all seemed to be DIY designs. In the end I decided that the integration between the dipile Quads and sealed subs improved tremendously by properly equalizing the subs. The Quads being dipole speakers do not suffer room modes very much, and by equalizing the subs I managed to get them to sound much closer to the clean Quad dipoles. Right now I am pondering a fourth subwoofer, but before that I need to do more measurements and MSO experiments.

Did some measuring (variable smoothing REW) with two antimode 8033s-II corrected Ripole-subwoofers (+mains). Crossover at 200hz. Very clean spectrogram in the bass with the Ripoles, and nice extension as well. I don't use any bass lift function in the 8033, only correction. Main speakers are not corrected. The 8033 does a a very nice job with the ripoles. I'm considering dipole speakers to match as. Quads would sure be nice, but rare used.

 

[Willem]

That is a nice result, and matches my experience with the ANtimode 8033. I don't quite undestand why you use two ANtimodes: is it because you use stereo subs because the crossover is so high?

 

[Hellasärö]

That is a nice result, and matches my experience with the ANtimode 8033. I don't quite undestand why you use two ANtimodes: is it because you use stereo subs because the crossover is so high?

Exactly. Stereo is better with a higher crossover. My old yamaha receiver has two independent sub outputs that can be configured to stereo or mono. One can also set the delay, gain and phase (0/180) separately.

 

[Andysu]

It's all about "you get what you paid for" right? Clearly, well made subwoofers track pricing very well. The more you pay, the higher the headroom SPL with larger drivers, heftier amplifiers and more exotic dual driver arrangements. For what you paid, the SB1000 Pro is rock solid with only the Monolith THX series hitting a slightly better performance per $$ threshold (not to mention SVS has best in class after-sales customer support which also goes into the cost)

THX ? not real THX now ? i not seen a real THX for over 10 no years now and certainly not a thee real THX for at least 30 no years now
have you ever been to a real professional , lucasfilm ltd THX sound system cinema ?

 

[SmackDaddies]

has someone put together a TL/DR for this?

 

[audioeclectic]

Congratulations on your excellent work and conclusive results. Could you tell us at what temperature the measurements were carried out?

 

[192kbps]

View attachment 323556

It’s really confusing what exactly makes a good subwoofer, what parameters we should pay attention to, and how they correspond to subjective listening experience.

Is this a loophole in the formulation of CEA? Not considering RMS performance?

 

[V-men]

Hello, it's my first post. thx for all the date. i have svs 1000 pro and I really appreciate it. i had an m-audio 10'' sub before. i did notice that the modulation distortion is higher than others, i'm not sure if this is audible while playing any style of music or movie? While a thd of 0.01 is better than .1 is better i think physicaly we can't hear the difference. So is the at what level modulation/intermodulation distortion is audible or a non issue? is looking at the Ld3 from the graph more importnat than the total since it might be more perceptible? as well for group delay and ETC is there a reference of what is good, great and exeptional the B&W is amazing but at 20hz i don't think we can percive the difference with 20 ms much slower. I know the frequency reponse linearity is really important as the human ear is great to disern those changes. Thx for any help in understaning those graphs! and understanding what might be overkill for our need.

 

[amanieux]

all that work to get this much data and no insights or conclusion ?

 

[bennybbbx]

@Nuyes great that you show group delay , there can see huge diffrence between the subwoofers . it is not so exact readable because of scale but see SVS look always bad at 40 hz . they have over 15 ms delay. your DIY subwoofer have because it is closed some advantage and have 5 ms at 40 hz . this is very good . headphones have at 40 hz 2-2.5 ms

Neumann KH750 DSP 7 ms . Bowers & Wilkins DB4S 9 ms . arendel 1961 V at 40 hz 10 ms

can you please also do in speaker tests show group delay ?. Seem because most tester do not show timing results speaker developers did not take care of it. maybe in full range speakers group delay in bass is even more larger as in subwoofers

 

[risandipra]

Exactly!

First, if I want to do a detailed comparison with other reviewers' data, I probably should have adopted CEA-2010-A.

However, I couldn't even start this project without the help of members of the Korean audio community, so I discussed the whole process with them (or some of them).

We ended up adopting 2010-B, focusing on the various usability aspects of the product.

It would have been great to measure every case like Erin did, but we didn't have enough time, money, and batteries.

Collecting nine subwoofers from scattered members, dragging them out to a vacant lot with no reflections, and then measuring them is not an easy task.
Especially in a country with densely populated private residences like South Korea.


So we had to venture out, and I had to leave everything behind to give back to the members who had supported us so generously.

That's what these data are.



I tried to visualize almost all of the data I could get with the Klippel TRF module, including the TBM module (CEA-2010B).

Most measuring instruments are not made for internet reviewers like me.

So to process the data, starting with learning how to use the TBM module, I needed to know more than I already had, and I studied.

Trimming data to a consistent standard, or even to something that looks good, is both enjoyable and painful.
Especially when I'm the first to do it.
I have to figure everything out on my own.


In particular, the various peak value plots (dB, Voltage..etc) and ETC plots are all processed from my experience and intuition.

That was a long rant...
It would be very complicated and difficult to explain all of this with any kind of standard.

But nevertheless, if enough people want it, I'll try.

All I can do is recognize my own limitations and try to provide as much data in as many different forms as possible, with objective and consistent criteria.
Because as long as you understand the measurement process, how the data was obtained, and what the plots show, you can take it in your own way.

Not to forget the cold weather during the measurement session. If there are any better words to "many thanks to you", then you deserve it.

 

[bennybbbx]

I have add testsounds in this thread https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-and-80-hz-tone-can-you-hear-diffrence.50087/ so you can test if you can hear group delay at 40 hz 4.1 ms or 8.2 ms together with a 80 hz sine with 0 ms delay