Genelec good enough?

[F1308]

Why I see no SINAD for powered monitors ?
I see DACs, preamplifiers and power amplifiers being rated by SINAD, but when reviewing powered loudspeakers nothing is said.
I paid much attention to this basics on SINAD...

1. 
   >116dB Superior. Performance exceeds human hearing threshold.
2. █ 115dB-106dB Excellent. Performance is capable of higher resolution output.
3. █ 105dB-96dB Proper. Performance fully covers 16-bit (CD) resolution.
4. █ 95dB-86dB Mediocre. Performance does not meet 16-bit (CD) resolution.
5. █ <85dB Low. Avoid if you take any interest in audio performance.

So I guess it should be known...

 

[AnalogSteph]

Why I see no SINAD for powered monitors ?
I see DACs, preamplifiers and power amplifiers being rated by SINAD, but when reviewing powered loudspeakers nothing is said.
Why not, if you please...?

Good luck trying to press loudspeaker performance until a stupid single number. Speakers are way too messy and complex for that. It barely works for electronics.

They both have basically the same woofer,

Kinda. Combining the cheaper stamped steel basket of the SDS series with a drive unit with even lower inductance than the HDS series strikes me as a potentially very clever move on the part of Neumann. Lower inductance directly translates to better electrical nonlinearity and consequently IMD, while the benefits of cast baskets are somewhat debatable. So this might be a woofer which performs even better than the HDS bought at the same or even a lower price.

You will notice that the 8030C plays marginally deeper than the KH120 (about 48 Hz vs. 52 Hz), plus whatever differences there may be in cabinet volume and port tuning. Combining everything, I wouldn't be surprised to see somewhat better level handling in the Neumanns. Plus, Class D amps have a reputation for real nasty-sounding clipping, though I guess (hope) that Genelec would have checked / accounted for that. They do mean that the 8030Cs @ 3 W idle should be a good bit less toasty than the KH120 @ 11 W. My O110's heatsinks (10 W idle) are getting noticeably warm.

 

[q3cpma]

Kinda. Combining the cheaper stamped steel basket of the SDS series with a drive unit with even lower inductance than the HDS series strikes me as a potentially very clever move on the part of Neumann. Lower inductance directly translates to better electrical nonlinearity and consequently IMD, while the benefits of cast baskets are somewhat debatable. So this might be a woofer which performs even better than the HDS bought at the same or even a lower price.

I doubt Genelec uses an off-the-shelf HDS, though, so "the same" sounds like a good guess to me.

You will notice that the 8030C plays marginally deeper than the KH120 (about 48 Hz vs. 52 Hz)

Didn't pay attention to that, you're right.

Combining everything, I wouldn't be surprised to see somewhat better level handling in the Neumanns.

Yeah, but the specced difference is still suspicious; I expect a few dB SPL more at most.

Plus, Class D amps have a reputation for real nasty-sounding clipping, though I guess (hope) that Genelec would have checked / accounted for that.

I guess both models have the limiter activating before that point. Genelec says "Long term output power is limited by driver unit protection circuitry", for example.

They do mean that the 8030Cs @ 3 W idle should be a good bit less toasty than the KH120 @ 11 W. My O110's heatsinks (10 W idle) are getting noticeably warm.

Neumanns says 20W idle for the KH120A, which makes the lack of standby a bit disappointing. But well, we'll get some incredible KH130, I hope.

 

[F1308]

Short answer: Yes, Genelec is good enough.

Good luck trying to press loudspeaker performance until a stupid single number. Speakers are way too messy and complex for that. It barely works for electronics.

I am just curious about those numbers.
Cannot quite understand why it is measured along the chain if we go by separates but is unseen while testing powered monitors...Simply hard to understand.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Cannot quite understand why it is measured along the chain if we go by separates but is unseen while testing powered monitors...Simply hard to understand.

SINAD is just a convenient condensation of several measurements into one number (as the name says, it's literally signal/(noise+distortion), so the algorithm does nothing but RMS sum noise and distortion components). It just tells you whether a device is going to safely pass the limit of audibility, but says nothing about what's amiss if it doesn't. Its use is in quick orientation, not detailed study. It can be a blatant oversimplification with electronics already.

I doubt Genelec uses an off-the-shelf HDS, though, so "the same" sounds like a good guess to me.

Great woofers either way. Basically proto-Purifis, kinda.

Neumanns says 20W idle for the KH120A, which makes the lack of standby a bit disappointing. But well, we'll get some incredible KH130, I hope.

I thought I remembered 11 or 12 W, and had already been wondering about the downgrade from the predecessor. But 20 W? Ouch. (Two of these would be using as much as my PC!) No wonder this model gained a diecast Al enclosure (the O110 was a composite resin job), I bet that's helping the heat transfer out quite a bit.

I still remember my old Tascam VL-X5s using 11 W for both. Simpler days. I can't shake the feeling that their 60 W + 30 W power spec may not have been entirely accurate. Vertical dispersion was pretty dismal, too - even if they were actually using 4th order crossovers as claimed the phase matching must have been lousy. Not inclined to investigate, the suckers were glued shut!

 

[Julf]

I am just curious about those numbers.
Cannot quite understand why it is measured along the chain if we go by separates but is unseen while testing powered monitors...Simply hard to understand.

Because while you can measure SINAD of electronics to an arbitrary limit, measuring the output of speakers, your limit is the background noise.

 

[F1308]

Because while you can measure SINAD of electronics to an arbitrary limit, measuring the output of speakers, your limit is the background noise.

I am not asking for any data of the loudspeakers themselves.
I just want to know the SINAD of the power amplifiers being used for each woofer...the same way I am told of SINAD for a DAC, a preamplifier and a powered amplifier. You don't go and measure the loudspeaker output of a system made up with separates; instead you measure everything in the chain.
Well, same for those amplifiers inside powered loudspeakers...or am I to pay 6000$ for a pair without knowing ?
Should be higher than some 96 dB to be happy enough... isn't it?

 

[Hemi-Demon]

I am not asking for any data of the loudspeakers themselves.
I just want to know the SINAD of the power amplifiers being used for each woofer...the same way I am told of SINAD for a DAC, a preamplifier and a powered amplifier. You don't go and measure the loudspeaker output of a system made up with separates; instead you measure everything in the chain.
Well, same for those amplifiers inside powered loudspeakers...or am I to pay 6000$ for a pair without knowing ?
Should be higher than some 96 dB to be happy enough... isn't it?

Buy one, take it apart and send it to Amir, or give him the okay to dismantle it and then send it back to you. Stop demanding things that you are not willing to support the forum with in time and or money, just to make a point.

 

[Sancus]

I am not asking for any data of the loudspeakers themselves.
I just want to know the SINAD of the power amplifiers being used for each woofer...the same way I am told of SINAD for a DAC, a preamplifier and a powered amplifier. You don't go and measure the loudspeaker output of a system made up with separates; instead you measure everything in the chain.
Well, same for those amplifiers inside powered loudspeakers...or am I to pay 6000$ for a pair without knowing ?
Should be higher than some 96 dB to be happy enough... isn't it?

The problem is that what you're asking for is impractical; you can't easily disassemble active speakers like that. If it was practical it would be done.

However in practice the answer is: It doesn't matter. No, seriously, obsessing over electronics SINAD is mostly done for engineering reasons and "because we can". The audibility is essentially negligible except for the absolute worst, most broken examples.

 

[F1308]

The problem is that what you're asking for is impractical; you can't easily disassemble active speakers like that. If it was practical it would be done.

However in practice the answer is: It doesn't matter. No, seriously, obsessing over electronics SINAD is mostly done for engineering reasons and "because we can". The audibility is essentially negligible except for the absolute worst, most broken examples.

I am not at all obsessed...on that I give my word.
My system here dates back to 1985 and I always loved its good sounding, that is why I paid for it. Still playing as nice as then.

But once we are committed to measurements I went curious about the lack of that SINAD.

Thanks anyway..,

 

[Tangband]

Amirms has just been testing 8030c. It has lower distortion in the bass than revel m105. Thats good news. Looks like amazing value.

 

[Frank Dernie]

It depends which model you're considering.

View attachment 74127

Once the pandemic has eased, in a year or two I am going to look into 3 of these big ones for listening, 2 stereo and a centre, since I sit too far away for any of the smaller ones.
I want a demo since I have good speakers already and they need to be much better to put up with the looks!

 

[dasdoing]

Once the pandemic has eased, in a year or two I am going to look into 3 of these big ones for listening, 2 stereo and a centre, since I sit too far away for any of the smaller ones.
I want a demo since I have good speakers already and they need to be much better to put up with the looks!

how big is your room? those things have two 18" woofers
the ports are bigger then their whole smaller speakers lol

 

[echopraxia]

I am not asking for any data of the loudspeakers themselves.
I just want to know the SINAD of the power amplifiers being used for each woofer...the same way I am told of SINAD for a DAC, a preamplifier and a powered amplifier. You don't go and measure the loudspeaker output of a system made up with separates; instead you measure everything in the chain.
Well, same for those amplifiers inside powered loudspeakers...or am I to pay 6000$ for a pair without knowing ?
Should be higher than some 96 dB to be happy enough... isn't it?

What’s the point of measuring SINAD of internal electronics when you have distortion measurements of the total end result?

The end result is all that matters. The only reason we measure separates separately is because... they’re separated, i.e. we have a choice in each component, and audiophiles (being the naturally obsessive perfectionists we are) sometimes want the best we can get for each component, even if the difference probably isn’t audible.

When it comes to an active speaker with integrated DACs and amps, you have no choice. You are not a part of the system building process anymore. If you don’t like that, tough. If you seriously think you can do better than the experts at Genelec and Neumann, then don’t buy active speakers. If you do buy active speakers, stop worrying about system building and focus on the measured end result from the integrated system. Is the total distortion from the speakers higher or lower than competitors? Etc. (Hint: It's usually better.)

Complaining that you don’t know the performance of the DAC/Amp inside amp active speaker (instead of the end result) is like shopping for the performance sedan with the fastest 0-60 acceleration (let's imagine this is the metric you want), and refusing to consider a Tesla Model S that demonstrably out-accelerates its competitors, just because you aren't comfortable with not having fuel pump specs. Electric cars don't use fuel pumps, obviously. But honestly, demanding DAC/Amp specs from a speaker with active digital crossovers is not that dissimilar to demanding fuel pump specs from a Tesla: These products are completely different (and generally superior) system designs vs traditional passive speakers[1].

Reliability aside, all that should matter is the performance it achieves in the end. Internal components are just a means to that end. It would be completely reasonable to be concerned about the reliability of internal electronics, but that's a separate discussion (and something where Genelec has probably the best industry reputation).

FWIW I have among the best DAC (Topping DX7 Pro) and amps (Hypex NC1200) powering my Salon2’s, and I think my Genelec 8351B’s sound cleaner. I get the most precise, accurate, clean, distortion free sound I’ve ever heard from the Genelecs. I don’t know how the Salon2’s measure for distortion, but the reason I prefer them for relaxed listening in a large room is more due to my preference for wide dispersion than anything else, combined with their generous bass (or that’s the best theory I have so far). I also appreciate that I can fill very large rooms to reference levels with the Salon2's without coming close to stressing them, but that has nothing to do with distortion/accuracy. Having heard them both, I suspect someone who prefers more precise/analytical/accurate sounds and cares less about wide (perhaps artificially so) soundstage will actually prefer the Genelecs, no matter how perfect the DACs and amps are connected to the Salon2's.

In other words, as someone who has an overkill DAC/amp with Salon2’s and Genelec 8351B’s, trust me, you don’t need to be worrying about internal component quality of the Genelecs. I love both these speakers very much in slightly different ways, but a clean distortion-free sound that is neutral and accurate to absolute perfection is exactly what the Genelec 8351B's excel at.

[1] Remember, active digital crossover speakers have multiple channels of DSP->DAC->Amp, each one individually tuned for each transducer (where each transducer covers a completely different frequency band). It would be completely meaningless to try to measure the electrical frequency response and SINAD etc. separate from the transducer it feeds, because this signal chain is intentionally designed to compensate for the limits of the physical system they are paired to. These DAC/amp/driver combinations are inherently not separable, and trying to do is about as silly as demanding fuel pump specs for an electric car.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I am just curious about those numbers.
Cannot quite understand why it is measured along the chain if we go by separates but is unseen while testing powered monitors...Simply hard to understand.

What I find hard to understand is being concerned about the distortion level of their electronics when they play them through transducers which are very, vary rarely -60dB level and mostly much worse.
I understand reducing noise being essential but the idea of saying -80dB SINAD is rubbish when the speakers being used can get nowhere near that seems bizarre, at best, to me.
As long as there is no audible hiss and there is enough power to avoid clipping how can the electronics have any impact on SQ?

 

[Frank Dernie]

how big is your room? those things have two 18" woofers
the ports are bigger then their whole smaller speakers lol

It is listening distance not room size. The monster is the only speaker on Genelec’s chart of monitors where at my listening distance the direct sound is still dominant.

 

[F1308]

What’s the point of measuring SINAD of internal electronics when you have distortion measurements of the total end result?

The end result is all that matters. The only reason we measure separates separately is because... they’re separated, i.e. we have a choice in each component, and audiophiles (being the naturally obsessive perfectionists we are) sometimes want the best we can get for each component, even if the difference probably isn’t audible.

When it comes to an active speaker with integrated DACs and amps, you have no choice. You are not a part of the system building process anymore. If you don’t like that, tough. If you seriously think you can do better than the experts at Genelec and Neumann, then don’t buy active speakers. If you do buy active speakers, stop worrying about system building and focus on the measured end result from the integrated system. Is the total distortion from the speakers higher or lower than competitors? Etc. (Hint: It's usually better.)

Complaining that you don’t know the performance of the DAC/Amp inside amp active speaker (instead of the end result) is like shopping for the performance sedan with the fastest 0-60 acceleration (let's imagine this is the metric you want), and refusing to consider a Tesla Model S that demonstrably out-accelerates its competitors, just because you aren't comfortable with not having fuel pump specs. Electric cars don't use fuel pumps, obviously. But honestly, demanding DAC/Amp specs from a speaker with active digital crossovers is not that dissimilar to demanding fuel pump specs from a Tesla: These products are completely different (and generally superior) system designs vs traditional passive speakers[1].

Reliability aside, all that should matter is the performance it achieves in the end. Internal components are just a means to that end. It would be completely reasonable to be concerned about the reliability of internal electronics, but that's a separate discussion (and something where Genelec has probably the best industry reputation).

FWIW I have among the best DAC (Topping DX7 Pro) and amps (Hypex NC1200) powering my Salon2’s, and I think my Genelec 8351B’s sound cleaner. I get the most precise, accurate, clean, distortion free sound I’ve ever heard from the Genelecs. I don’t know how the Salon2’s measure for distortion, but the reason I prefer them for relaxed listening in a large room is more due to my preference for wide dispersion than anything else, combined with their generous bass (or that’s the best theory I have so far). I also appreciate that I can fill very large rooms to reference levels with the Salon2's without coming close to stressing them, but that has nothing to do with distortion/accuracy. Having heard them both, I suspect someone who prefers more precise/analytical/accurate sounds and cares less about wide (perhaps artificially so) soundstage will actually prefer the Genelecs, no matter how perfect the DACs and amps are connected to the Salon2's.

In other words, as someone who has an overkill DAC/amp with Salon2’s and Genelec 8351B’s, trust me, you don’t need to be worrying about internal component quality of the Genelecs. I love both these speakers very much in slightly different ways, but a clean distortion-free sound that is neutral and accurate to absolute perfection is exactly what the Genelec 8351B's excel at.

[1] Remember, active digital crossover speakers have multiple channels of DSP->DAC->Amp, each one individually tuned for each transducer (where each transducer covers a completely different frequency band). It would be completely meaningless to try to measure the electrical frequency response and SINAD etc. separate from the transducer it feeds, because this signal chain is intentionally designed to compensate for the limits of the physical system they are paired to. These DAC/amp/driver combinations are inherently not separable, and trying to do is about as silly as demanding fuel pump specs for an electric car.

I don't need it at all, as I said before.Thanks.

I still have a system dating back to 1985 and never payed any attention whatsoever to any data written in the specifications sheet.
I just play it for hours of joy. Outstanding sound.
Have a look...still playing for years to come.

 

[F1308]

I said before I will ask Genelec about the SINAD of amplifiers built into their speakers (part of the audio chain, remember?).
Yes, sure you do.
Signal from the player goes to a DAC, then to a pair of power amplifiers (SINAD unknown) and then to the woofers...Sound is heard. You move and place everything here and there to get the best sound. And you relax and enjoy. Great.

Well, here is their saying to me... and to you all.
I think perhaps no further testing is needed any more on nothing...
You just like the sound and that is it.
Remember that as you go away from the speakers, sound will get less loud...
But I think you better read.

Oh, before you do read, remember not to complain to Audi, Rolls or Bentley for their brakes, as they make cars for you to speed up, not to come to a halt.


Jani Oksanen (Genelec)
Jul 20, 2020, 3:46 PM GMT+3

Hi F1308 ,

Thank you for reaching us. I've asked help from our R&D Director Aki Mäkivirta, and you can find his reply below:


Because Genelec manufactures active loudspeakers, the electrical performance figures, such as SINAD are not very useful in describing the overall quality. Instead, we publish figures that are more relevant from the acoustics point of view. We publish the idle channel noise level generated by a Genelec active monitor, and this figure is given as a sound pressure expressed in dB SPL. As you know, dB SPL represents the absolute sound pressure relative to the reference pressure of 20 micro-Pascals (0 dB SPL level) and this is done at a standard distance, stated as part of the specification, frequently 1 meter. We also publish the maximum SPL levels, also in dB SPL scale. These depend on the monitor type and design, and are also expressed at a standard distance and with standard quality of the outcoming audio signal (distortion).


The first specification describes the total system noise performance with no signal. The second specification describes the maximum output at a given audio quality. These two figures combined describe the dynamic range deliverable by a monitor. In practice, when you look at these figures, you have to understand your intended listening distance. The idle channel noise SPL reduces typically 6 dB at doubling of the listening distance and so does the maximum SPL unless you are very far from the monitor in a room. These two figures describe the acoustically dynamic range and consider the complete system, not just the power amplifier, and are therefore better descriptions of what you actually experience using Genelec monitors. SINAD is only related to the electronic input/output, and stating SINAD for an amplifier does not tell you much at all for an active loudspeaker. The SINAD of the Genelec integrated power amplifier becomes part of these two overall system specifications.
Aki


I hope this answers your question, and let me know if you have any other question or concerns and we will do our best to help.


Best Regards / Ystävällisin Terveisin
Jani Oksanen
Factory service team
Factory number +358 (0) 17 83881
www.genelec.com

 

[AudioStudies]

Going to a speaker system with active crossovers has advantages over running an amp to passive speakers. Yeah, not all active monitors look that attractive . . .

 

[stevenswall]

fun fact: mains in control rooms are mostly there to impress clients on couches at the back wall, not for critical listening

I thought they were used for movie mastering or something to make sure you're listening from the same distance as a theater goer or something, (and to ensure you have something so loud that it can play at the ear destroying levels of modern cinemas.)

I heard some Gens and in my opinion the main monitors, that is from the 1238 up, are more complete.
Big cabinets and woofers help a lot.
They cost more than the 8000 series though.
But, again they are very unforgiving and accurate, and many people prefer different kind of speakers.
All of the above is valid if the speakers placement and room acoustic are go, if not we will be listening our room mostly.

Have you listened to their largest 8000 series monitors? Looks like they are more accurate, just not as loud. (As far as I understand, zero difference in dynamics, as neither noticeably acts as a dynamic range compressor, though volume=dynamics to some.) On the Genelec forums it sounds like the 8000 series are the "better" speakers, and the larger ones are "better" if you like "louder" which can be necessary in larger rooms. Hard to beat the in room performance and dispersion of their coaxial monitors I imagine unless someone doesn't move around and has soffit mounted speakers.