Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

[Frank Dernie]

I have. Never got over it.

Whet did you think?

 

[tonyo123]

Wow on the speakers and wow on the thoroughness of the review! Along with ASR, I am adding ErinsAudioCorner.com as one of my home page tabs.

 

[Dimifoot]

Whet did you think?

I have heard many well designed speakers, unfortunately not the D&D.

Grimm+subs, kii3, kii3+bxt, Neumann 310, Genelec Ones, all great designs. I like them all, for different reasons.
The Geithains are in a different level. Breathtaking. I wanted to cry. I wanted to sell my house and buy a bigger one just to have room to accommodate them. It might be the non-dsp cardioid + the headroom, I don’t know.

It might be just me.

 

[Purité Audio]

@Frank, they are definitely worth a listen, they weren’t as ‘sparkly’ as some of the other monitors we listened to that day (KMR Barnet) you would need to listen to them at your place, the U.K distributor only has/had the one pair which are on permanent loan there, I heard the smaller 944’s here and they were good.
Keith

 

[richard12511]

I have heard many well designed speakers, unfortunately not the D&D.

Grimm+subs, kii3, kii3+bxt, Neumann 310, Genelec Ones, all great designs. I like them all, for different reasons.
The Geithains are in a different level. Breathtaking. I wanted to cry. I wanted to sell my house and buy a bigger one just to have room to accommodate them. It might be the non-dsp cardioid + the headroom, I don’t know.

It might be just me.

Most of the subjective impressions I've read relating to MEG vs Genelec, MEG vs Kii, etc. have been similar to yours(ie the MEG comes out on top). Unfortunately, the measurements I've seen are all incomplete and insufficient to really judge a speaker. The third party measurements I've seen look good, but not Genelec good. We need to get one to Erin or Amir, or maybe ME Geithain could send a sample themselves?

Could it be the full range cardioid response? Even the 8C only controls down to 100Hz, though I've also heard that cardioid doesn't matter under 200Hz anyway, so who knows.

MEG, D&D, Kii, and Grimm are all on my shortlist for my 2.0 channel room. Grimm probably not, since they seem quite overpriced. I'd have to be blown away. I wish MEG speakers were easier to find where I live.

I also disagree with you that they look bad. They're actually some of my favorite speakers, aesthetically.

 

[Soniclife]

I've also heard that cardioid doesn't matter under 200Hz anyway, so who knows.

I wonder the same, or more specifically what aspects matter under the transition frequency?

 

[richard12511]

I wonder the same, or more specifically what aspects matter under the transition frequency?

Personally, I would think it would still be valuable below 200Hz for dealing with SBIR, but I also don't really know what I'm talking about .

 

[Soniclife]

I also disagree with you that they look bad. They're actually some of my favorite speakers, aesthetically.

I kind of like the metal stand look they have, it takes no prisoners.

 

[Dimifoot]

Unfortunately, the measurements I've seen are all incomplete and insufficient to really judge a speaker. The third party measurements I've seen look good, but not Genelec good.

We should take into account not only Klippel/anechoic measurements, but also measurements in real rooms.
This is where I think cardioid speakers will shine over other excellent designs.

 

[Soniclife]

Personally, I would think it would still be valuable below 200Hz for dealing with SBIR, but I also don't really know what I'm talking about .

That's about as far as I've got with the thoughts as well, I'm hoping someone here knows.

 

[HiFidFan]

I kind of like the metal stand look they have, it takes no prisoners.

Those are some serious looking speakers! I prefer the look.

 

[Dimifoot]

I kind of like the metal stand look they have, it takes no prisoners.

I don’t like them, but I would buy them anyway if I had the space

 

[q3cpma]

Most of the subjective impressions I've read relating to MEG vs Genelec, MEG vs Kii, etc. have been similar to yours(ie the MEG comes out on top). Unfortunately, the measurements I've seen are all incomplete and insufficient to really judge a speaker. The third party measurements I've seen look good, but not Genelec good. We need to get one to Erin or Amir, or maybe ME Geithain could send a sample themselves?

Could it be the full range cardioid response? Even the 8C only controls down to 100Hz, though I've also heard that cardioid doesn't matter under 200Hz anyway, so who knows.

MEG, D&D, Kii, and Grimm are all on my shortlist for my 2.0 channel room. Grimm probably not, since they seem quite overpriced. I'd have to be blown away. I wish MEG speakers were easier to find where I live.

I also disagree with you that they look bad. They're actually some of my favorite speakers, aesthetically.

Here's an in-room measurements for the 901k that shows the SBIR improvement: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rdioid-vs-omni-directivity.20143/#post-664113
Sadly, nothing else. I wonder if my initial intuition of higher on-axis SPLower response ratio makes sense for wavelengths that large.

 

[Juhazi]

Cardioid below 100Hz means remarkably larger size than 8c. The benefit in normal domestic listening rooms is negotiable. I can live without, but I dream of a pair of 18" sealed playing 20-300Hz...

 

[Rntlee]

Interesting that they chose solid oak for the cabinets. If the speaker is 15” deep, that would make ~14” side panels. As a woodworker, I would expect about 1/4” of seasonal dimensional change in a panel that wide.

 

[olivier salad]

"Pascal Audio S-PRO2 Class D amps handle tweeters and midrange drivers, whereas a single 500w module of the same topology amplifies both woofers. Texas Instruments PCM4104 and PCM4202 handle D/A and A/D conversion respectively, whereas the DSP core of choice is fully programmable ADAU1452 by Analog Devices. "

Thanks. And what's inside D&D?

 

[daftcombo]

Is there any advantage of cardioid design when speakers are far from all walls?

 

[ctrl]

Is not the distortion data a bit dissapointing?

My designs are different form the D&D, but they share some common principles, such as the directivity control in the upper bass - lower midrange frequency range using acoustic ports with acoustic resistive damping in those ports, as well as inside the cabinet.
My speakers also show the same behavior with increased distortion with lower frequency, levels may be different, but same tendency.

As to why the high harmonic distortion around 100Hz occurs, I have a "theory" (rather speculation) to offer.
Have only skimmed the thread do not know if my "theory" has already been mentioned - sorry if the answer is yes.

The lateral slots are nothing else than Helmholtz resonators. These are used with the midrange driver to generate phase-inverted sound pressure and thereby produce the cardioid radiation.

The phase-inverted sound must cover a wide frequency range, which means that the tuning frequency of the slots must be relatively high.
You could also use differently tuned slots to extend the frequency range, but don't ask me what exactly happens then. This and my "theory" would all have to be checked and verified at least by simulations.

It would have been interesting if @hardisj had also taken near-field measurements of the lateral slots, that would facilitate a possible explanation.

Since the subwoofers have a crossover frequency of 100Hz, the midrange driver still plays at full sound pressure level below the tuning frequency of the slots. However, this means that the excursion of the midrange driver increases extremely and it therefore generates more HD3.

If then at around 60Hz mainly the two subwoofers generate the sound pressure, the distortion drops to an intermediate minimum.

 

[ebslo]

I don't know much about what is/isn't audible, so here's some bro-science for you guys to poke holes in.

Consider the 3rd harmonic distortion component of a 100Hz fundamental is 300Hz, musically about G2 and D4. Say the 3rd harmonic is -20.5dB relative to the fundamental. The A-weight curve is about 11dB higher at 300Hz than at 100Hz. So 3rd harmonic distortion from the G2 is a D4 that's 9.5dB down perceptually, which should sound about half as loud as the fundamental.

 

[617]

Thanks. And what's inside D&D?

That is the d&d