I must ask what happened to the old school Thiel/Small parameters or Vas, Vb, Qts, Qes, Fs, Sd, F3, Fb, Lp, EBP, which I believe were the basis of speaker design?
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JBL Conceal C62 Invisible Speaker Review
- Thread starter amirm
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OP
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Harman put the Oppo player through their tests and found a bunch of bugs. Oppo fixed them and Harman gave them permission to put it in their own product as well. This work wasn't free. In addition, Harman sold the product through distribution which Oppo was not, necessitating significant price lift. So while mistakes were made in their strategy here (they should have gotten OPPO to sell them a custom variation), the story is not remotely as sensational as it has been reported online.
valerianf
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@amirn
How do you know it will be "completely different?" And are you claiming it would be much better or much worse?
If I understand properly how this speaker is designed, without seeing it working, it is flat surface that has an exciter mounted at the back.
The exciter is inducing micro-movements to the surface: this induce the sound that we listen.
It is easy to guess that any change (weight, damping varnish, sealant applied at the 4 corners) applied to the radiating surface may change the sound produced.
Damping and weight could be collateral changes induced by the painting or worst a mechanical deformation due to the mounting.
If wants from ASR a proof of this phenomenon, best way it to apply some product on the front surface, make a change on the mounting sealant and run another Klippel measurement.
Data will show if there is any change that is not marginal.
In the past I have designed this type of transducers and it is very difficult to control the end sound result.
I have used glass and ABS surfaces.
Some Airbus planes are using this technology for sound diffusion since the end of the 90's.
When it is properly installed the way it works is magic.
How do you know it will be "completely different?" And are you claiming it would be much better or much worse?
If I understand properly how this speaker is designed, without seeing it working, it is flat surface that has an exciter mounted at the back.
The exciter is inducing micro-movements to the surface: this induce the sound that we listen.
It is easy to guess that any change (weight, damping varnish, sealant applied at the 4 corners) applied to the radiating surface may change the sound produced.
Damping and weight could be collateral changes induced by the painting or worst a mechanical deformation due to the mounting.
If wants from ASR a proof of this phenomenon, best way it to apply some product on the front surface, make a change on the mounting sealant and run another Klippel measurement.
Data will show if there is any change that is not marginal.
In the past I have designed this type of transducers and it is very difficult to control the end sound result.
I have used glass and ABS surfaces.
Some Airbus planes are using this technology for sound diffusion since the end of the 90's.
When it is properly installed the way it works is magic.
Yes, we were Harman dealers then as now and got the same story from Harman. That still doesn't explain the "Made i n USA" label on the rear and didn't make it less embarrassing when our customers accused us of being thieves or fools.
I obviously have issues with the brand. Like seeing a family member continue to make bad decisions and you can't help them.
Apologies if this has been covered (I couldn't find it), but how did you decide on the JBL Conceals? Did you look at the newer (not older) Sonance Invisible Series?
Thanks for sharing both the speakers for testing and the pics of your installation. We're also doing a modern remodel with lots of glass and few suitable surfaces for speakers. Did I see some small aperture speakers on your walls?
Honestly, a large reason why I chose the JBL Conceal is that I was able to find several dealers (eventually Amir, but also others) who would directly sell me the speakers. For Sonance, I could not find them without a full service quote with install ($25k+) rather than about half that for JBL. And yet the install cost would not actually include the drywall work, that was still on my contractor, and I can run speaker wires myself.
All press I could find on the JBL Conceal was positive, and completely lacking objective data. But largely the same for Sonance. So I was curious about sending them Amir's way, but I had to commit to buying them before I got test results. Do I wish the C62 sounded better? Yes. Do I hope the C83s that I am using for L/R/C sound better, when we see those results? Yes. Also, I will be using them with the C82W as well to boost low end, but I can probably add a real subwoofer somewhere if I need more punch.
The room these are going in will have WAY too many reflections for a great experience, as it has a great view out to the park on the left side, and giant triple slider out to the patio on the right. So this is compromised from the get go.
Regarding the holes, those are the templates for the speakers with holes for the wires. Once the rough drywall is in around the template, the template is removed, the speaker is installed, and then they mud the seams and then paint.
That's great feedback & I totally get the point about selling speakers without a required installer.
I'm sure the full install will sound pretty good, not to mention looking fantastic.
One thought for your install - based on the Sonance design - maybe mud in flat magnets at the corners of the speakers to make them easy to find / have a good reminder of where the speakers are.
I'm sure the full install will sound pretty good, not to mention looking fantastic.
One thought for your install - based on the Sonance design - maybe mud in flat magnets at the corners of the speakers to make them easy to find / have a good reminder of where the speakers are.
I have no experience with this JBL invisible series speakers, but I do have experience with several other brands of invisible speakers and I recommend that you plan on using in-wall or in-room traditional subwoofers with your speakers. I probably wouldn't use the invisible woofer modules, but if you have already purchased them I suppose you can always try them both in the mix and disconnected.
These very inconspicuous in-wall subs from Artison (now part of Savant) are quite good with only a 3" by 14" grille: http://sav-documentation.s3.amazonaws.com/Artison/RCC_Whitepaper.pdf
Dynaudio has a very similar subwoofer and JL Audio has several very good in-wall subs, but they have much larger grilles.
The coat closet, which is also the AV closet, is right on the opposite side of the wall from the TV. So adding a in-wall sub later should be fairly easy, if we give up a bit of shoe space, which is part of why we did not do it now.
JL Audio, the Dynaudio RCC sub, and the Artison RCC subs will all fit within a single 2 by 4 stud bay so you shouldn't have to give up any closet space. If you want the room to have theater bass you can double up two Artison RCC 320s with a single amp and you'll be amazed at what such a small package can deliver.
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Just wondering if the mud and paint dampens a specific frequency range that tames the unwieldy parts a bit.
A 15 yo bad decision, but far from the worst I've seen in audio.
The brand has also offered/offers some fantastic high quality products.
Maybe time to move on with the attitude over one issue.
As to "invisible" speakers, at least with the technology available today, if a Quality result is desired from a surround sound
installation, these things suck! Do it the way it's supposed to be done, with near identical speakers for all channels.
You wouldn't put a Salon 2 on the Left and a Invisible on the Right of a stereo system and call it "good enough" ?
I agree that the Oppo debacle was only one blunder and I only brought it up because it had to do with co-engineering/rebadging. It is absolutely possible that Harman put some of their best and brightest on this project and helped Stealth to significantly improve the product. However it is also they only stuck their logo on an existing product.A 15 yo bad decision, but far from the worst I've seen in audio.
The brand has also offered/offers some fantastic high quality products.
Maybe time to move on with the attitude over one issue.
As to "invisible" speakers, at least with the technology available today, if a Quality result is desired from a surround sound
installation, these things suck! Do it the way it's supposed to be done, with near identical speakers for all channels.
You wouldn't put a Salon 2 on the Left and a Invisible on the Right of a stereo system and call it "good enough" ?
My issues with Harman are many and center around a multitude of decisions they have made that seem to focus on short term profits... a topic for another thread, and possibly another forum.
In your hypothetical, the correct application of invisibles would be to use a pair of Salon 2s with either a third as center or Voice2 and deploy 2 or more invisibles as surrounds. In this case they may be "good enough."As to "invisible" speakers, at least with the technology available today, if a Quality result is desired from a surround sound
installation, these things suck! Do it the way it's supposed to be done, with near identical speakers for all channels.
You wouldn't put a Salon 2 on the Left and a Invisible on the Right of a stereo system and call it "good enough" ?
Yes, it would be good to see that question answered empirically rather than theoretically.
Only in my idea of surround sound hell. LOL
Just more ammo for the 2ch only crowd to crow how they've never heard a surround system that sounds as good as stereo only.
I cannot speak to the other speakers, but the JL takes a *lot* of vertical space in that stud bay - almost 5' iirc. So, you cannot have switches, plugs, other wiring, hvac, etc., in the way.
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No, actually I was quite serious. To each their own, I guess - your client got what they asked for, so it's all good. Me personally, I have to be surrounded on all sides with gear, wires, speakers and media to be happy. Any clean lines and uncluttering, and I do not like it.
Yep, then you know the owner is "serious" about music and reproduction.
Not just some pretender with deep pockets.
What processor will you be using? This is one system where I am sure full range EQ will work well for you. I stand by my opinion that the Bose 901’s work very well once you correct them full range with Dirac and these speakers are better than the 901’s in FR smoothness.
Once you add reflections, I am betting your dispersion in room sounds way better than “it should”.
Don’t forget this review and Amir’s subjective opinions and the measurements:
Canon S-50 Wide Directivity Speaker Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Canon S-50 wide directivity ("omni-directional") speaker. It was a venture from their UK division from what I have read (in early 1990s). Phil Ward tells the story well in this article...
www.audiosciencereview.com
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