Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

[Soniclife]

Now that I am aware of the distortion measurement, I would shell out the $$$ for a bass tower with an additional midrange (or two) and more woofers on the back even though I probably couldn't hear a difference...

If I owned these I probably would to, not because it's rational, because it's probably not, more just because.

 

[richard12511]

I did but my UMIK-1 seems to be faulty. I compared it to another set of speakers that I measured previously and there is a drastic HF roll off that should not be there. Just one more item on my list of things to resolve.

You sure you had the right calibration file loaded?

 

[richard12511]

View attachment 116443

THIS!

 

[Dialectic]

People mainly mention the bass performance but I wonder about the treble, has anyone compared it to Genelec or Neumann? Are they generally bright or "smooth"? (sorry for the non scientific terms)

The treble of the 8Cs is not bright or smooth. It is simply correct. Appropriate high frequency response is difficult to characterize if you haven't heard a properly designed loudspeaker before. My impression of the Salons 2s' treble was similar. This treble sound is distinguishable from the "airy" sound of some speakers with exotic tweeters that I have owned (Genesis) and auditioned (Raidhos) or the "layered" treble sound of some speakers with fancy tweeter materials that result in uneven--although arguably "tuned"--treble response (e.g., the B&W 80XD models).

Thanks to @Purité Audio, I was able to do a side-by-side of the 8Cs with the Kii Threes, which sounded subjectively a tad more "detailed" than the 8Cs. The additional detail I seemed to hear was very likely the result of the Kiis' slightly elevated treble, as shown in Stereophile's measurements of the Kiis.

 

[richard12511]

The score should actually be higher, but my LFX code wasn’t working because it looks for -6dB point, and at 20Hz it is only down 3.5dB!!! As such, the “score w/ sub” is not accurate, but I added it for consistency.

Also, as expected, the flat in-room response from 1500Hz-15000Hz lowers the rating.

Preference Rating
SCORE: 7.2
SCORE w/ sub: 7.9

Frequency response: +/-1.7dB 25Hz-18kHz

Due to the super deep bass, my graphs that usually only go down to 30Hz needs to be extended to 20Hz, that’ll be uploaded ata later date as I want the standard scaling to be achieved.

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New Olive score champion, as expected!

 

[MZKM]

New Olive score champion, as expected!

Yeah, I think after COVID is over, I think Amir said he wanted to try his best to do a blind speaker shootout(s) it local audiophiles, with speakers that have SPIN data of course. With modern speakers such as this that pushes the boundaries of perfection, we would be able to make our own algorithm.

 

[richard12511]

Possible to show more real-world distortion measurements maybe? That's my only gripe with ASR reviews. Who listens to their bookshelves at 86dD free-field in their medium-sized rooms (although I do understand the need to have 86dB+ measurements)? ~70dB in-room is loud to me. Maybe I'll go ~75dB for a laugh once in awhile.

Most of my serious listening is 85dB+, rarely 95+, and very rarely 105+. I very rarely ever listen below 80dB. Just doesn't sound very good to me at those volumes.

I think music is mixed at 83dB?, so if you're listening significantly below those levels, it may actually be better to look for speakers with elevated bass and treble(v-curve).

 

[richard12511]

If the DutchDutch "sounds excellent" despite these THD numbers, how relevant is the general THD/SINAD focus of this forum? Note that this isn't a comment on the performance of the Dutch specifically, but the general focus on THD in relation to the result of this test.

Imo, not super relevant for speakers. There have been a few cases where I think it has been clearly audible(ex: 308p), but for the most part they're all generally in the range of completely inaudible to slightly audible with sine tones. Even when it is audible, like with the 308p, it's still doesn't matter all that much compared to other performance metrics.

For electronics, I personally see it as irrelevant(though there's always exceptions), which is why I never read the electronic reviews. People like having a number to compare though, even if that number makes no significant audible difference.

A $12,000 set of speakers shouldn't need such a discussion.

Given that this is likely the best $12,000 speaker (this or Kii3) in the world, and definitely the best measurements we've ever seen here, I don't really understand this. No speaker does everything perfect, even at this price. The 8C does the things that matter a lot(extension, directivity), better than anything else we've seen, while doing the things that don't matter(distortion), or matter very little, mediocre. @q3cpma showed that the 8C's 100Hz H5 distortion is above the audible threshold, but that's for sine waves, not music.

It seems that a conscious decision was made to sacrifice distortion performance to gain directivity performance and extension, as @Kvalsvoll explained. A good trade, imo, considering just how much more important those latter two performance metrics are. For the distortion difference, we're likely talking "ever so slightly audible to trained listeners with less than 3 second switch time on certain segments of certain songs". For the directivity and extension difference, were talking "easily audible to untrained listeners with 3 month switch time on almost any piece of music". A very good trade indeed.

So, show me a speaker that has better distortion than this speaker(@ $12,000), and I'll show you a speaker that has less extension, worse directivity, or both. A speaker with better distortion performance, but worse extension or directivity, is a lesser speaker, which is why your statement confuses me. Now that the standard has been set, it would make more sense to go to the Revel F28Be review and say "Why does it only control directivity down to 500Hz? why is the extension so poor? A $16,000 speaker shouldn't need such questions"

 

[DSJR]

Thanks to @Purité Audio, I was able to do a side-by-side of the 8Cs with the Kii Threes, which sounded subjectively a tad more "detailed" than the 8Cs. The additional detail I seemed to hear was very likely the result of the Kiis' slightly elevated treble, as shown in Stereophile's measurements of the Kiis.

Thanks for that, as I've only heard the Kii Three's and loved them. They certainly don't lack hf but I actually found it almost sweet toned which genuinely surprised me bearing in mind my incorrect preconceptions of the amps used (shows how rough and ragged most domestically used tweeters on the UK market are imo). No issues at all if the 8C is very slightly less 'obvious' up top but again, I fear spitty, or muffled and smeared highs as so many passive domestic speakers offer. Try telling many other-forum peeps to listen to the 8C or Kii and you'd be totally ignored though, which I think is a crying shame!

 

[MrPeabody]

Bravo Erin, super work and on a speaker which is of use for something other than a desktop setup!

You really should read a bit more about the speaker before wildly speculating, there has been plenty of information about it on the web for month, maybe years.
The driver on the front is a mid driver, not a "woofer" as you describe it.
There are no, and never have been, any passive radiators in this design, just 2 woofers benefiting from a clever use of the front wall and the physics of how sound radiates.
On a science based forum such ill informed speculation is not the sort of thing I hope to see.

There are 2 woofers and the cardioid pattern actually starts at 100Hz.

Wow, Frank, I would have thought that by now someone would have explained to you that it is rude and boorish to reply to something that someone else wrote by saying "You really should read a bit more about ..." As you surely know, this is just a way to pretend to be civil while telling something that they don't know what they are talking about.

So let's see, did you really have any reason to think that I hadn't read anything about this speaker? What did I say that was not correct? Just one thing really, and it didn't amount to a hill of beans. I referred to the rear-mounted drivers as passive, whereas in fact they are active. So what? Does this error have any relevance at all to the points that I made? Not really. But you were obviously offended by what I wrote, and were motivated to nitpick, even to chastise me for referring to a midrange driver as a woofer.

The gist of what I said is that distortion is unusually high as a consequence of the need to use EQ to flatten the response in compensation for phase cancellation occurring between the direct wave from the front-mounted main driver and the out-of-phase wave from that same driver, radiating from the opening on the side of the enclosure. In a nutshell, that is what I said, and it is 100% correct and is a highly pertinent observation to make about this speaker. If you want to say that THIS is not correct, or that it is not a highly pertinent comment to make about this speaker, then please do so, and were you to do something this genuine, you would then have some reason to use a tone that is a touch disagreeable, although still not nearly as disagreeable as the inappropriately rude tone you have used. To paraphrase you, on a science-based forum, such rude and boorish behavior as you have used is not the sort of thing I hope to see.

 

[617]

The only reliable way to establish whether distortion is a problem is to listen to it. There is no reliable metric in general use. THD, IMD, % of H2, H3, none of these things correlate with perception meaningfully. This speaker has an 8" midrange and four 8" subwoofers with big amps behind them. Even with some boost required for the cardioid pattern, I don't see distortion as being an intrinsic problem to this design. 8" midbass are used in dipole dynamic designs regularly, which presumably need even more boost.

If you care about ultra low measured distortion you're not going to achieve it with a normal sized speaker. Think a danley SH50 with 18" pro sound subwoofers, or some kind of $$ horn set up. Domestic speakers are small speakers. They are all compromised. Anything reproducing midrange with less than a 10" woofer of some sort is a sacrifice for aesthetics in my opinion.

Dispersion and extension are vastly more important metrics and this speaker achieves incredible pattern control with extremely low bass extension in a stand mount speaker. This really is a triumph of engineering, worthy of the price tag and worthy of being called one of the best speakers ever designed.

 

[Dimifoot]

So, show me a speaker that has better distortion than this speaker(@ $12,000), and I'll show you a speaker that has less extension, worse directivity, or both.

https://www.me-geithain.de/en/me-901k1.html

Just less beautiful

 

[olivier salad]

What kind of amp is inside? Hypex, Purifi, ICEpower?

 

[Frank Dernie]

What kind of amp is inside? Hypex, Purifi, ICEpower?

Edit, the Geithian 901 has A/B
Their new range has class D amps.

 

[Dialectic]

What kind of amp is inside? Hypex, Purifi, ICEpower?

Pascal

 

[617]

"Pascal Audio S-PRO2 Class D amps handle tweeters and midrange drivers, whereas a single 500w module of the same topology amplifies both woofers. Texas Instruments PCM4104 and PCM4202 handle D/A and A/D conversion respectively, whereas the DSP core of choice is fully programmable ADAU1452 by Analog Devices. "

 

[617]

View attachment 116632View attachment 116633

https://www.me-geithain.de/en/me-901k1.html

Just less beautiful

ME Geithain really has been ahead of their time for like 20 years or something.

 

[Frank Dernie]

View attachment 116632View attachment 116633

https://www.me-geithain.de/en/me-901k1.html

Just less beautiful

I am hoping to hear some after the lockdown is over.

 

[richard12511]

View attachment 116632View attachment 116633

https://www.me-geithain.de/en/me-901k1.html

Just less beautiful

Directivity doesn't look quite as good, though I'd need to see much better measurements than those to make any meaningful conclusion. Erin's measurements are much more detailed. From just those, it looks slightly worse than the 8C, but definitely comparable. ME Geithain is legit, though. Wish they were easier to find in the US.

 

[Dimifoot]

I am hoping to hear some after the lockdown is over.

I have. Never got over it.