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Dutch & Dutch 8c Review

fredoamigo

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I would love to see a "bass bin" to accompany the 8Cs--similar to the Kii BXTs but perhaps less expensive.

Would such bass modules audibly benefit my system? Probably not, although I'm sure they would improve the distortion measurement. In my listening room, I can listen to organ music at levels that make the house shake, and whatever distortion is there (and I'm sure it's easily measurable) is not audible to me.
If I have good memory ?, the BXT of KII works from 700 to 20HZ. and the W371GENELEC from 500 to 23HZ in waterfall...so it's not only in the very low ...do you know how the D&D subwoofers work?
 
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lherrm

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Thanks for your work and time, @hardisj. This look much like a end game speaker to me.
As well as some others here, I would be very (VERY) curious to see how much better this compares to a high end Genelec like 8351B, which price is much lower.
Would there be any viable strategy to enable you to test a speaker like 8351B ? How much $ would be needed to get you one to test (and then be reselled, or whatever) ? I would be interested in contributing, probably others too.
And maybe it's just me, but I am interested in objective data as well as subjective impressions.
Thanks for letting us know.
 
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q3cpma

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Thanks for your work and time, @hardisj. This look much like a end game speaker to me.
As well as some others here, I would be very (VERY) curious to see how much better this compares to a high end Genelec like 8351B, which price is much lower.
Would there be any viable strategy to enable you to test a speaker like 8351B ? How much $ would be needed to get you one to test (and then be reselled, or whatever) ? I would be interested in contributing, probably others too.
And maybe it's just me, but I am interested in objective data as well as subjective impressions.
Thanks for letting us know.
I don't think you can compare the 8351B to the 8c without at least a 7360A to help them.
 

hmt

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I don’t have high hopes, it’s good but not great.

KH420_H_D_510.gif

KH420_V_D_510.gif
I beg to differ since those graphs are scaled -+ 90 degrees and thus look worse than they are.
 

q3cpma

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I beg to differ since those graphs are scaled -+ 90 degrees and thus look worse than they are.
Yeah, the KH420 won't lose on the distortion, on-axis response or horizontal directivity level. It simply is too conventional to belong to the SOTA Olympia full of cardioid and or coaxial designs with DSP crossovers.
 

Frank Dernie

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do you know how the D&D subwoofers work?
I think it is discussed in the review.
The woofers are from 100Hz down, the cardioid behaviour of the mid unit and slots goes down to there. It is probably more important for this characteristic to go to 100Hz than for the bass units to cross over higher.
There is a connector to add a sub, if anybody wants to, but D&D don't make one.
Maybe they will later.
 

Juhazi

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I think it is discussed in the review.
The woofers are from 100Hz down, the cardioid behaviour of the mid unit and slots goes down to there. It is probably more important for this characteristic to go to 100Hz than for the bass units to cross over higher.
There is a connector to add a sub, if anybody wants to, but D&D don't make one.
Maybe they will later.

Yes, D&D8c sealed woofers are flat down to 25Hz free-air. Supposing one is listening to a stereo pair there is 4x8" surface area for bass. I think that is much more capacity than most people have in their subwoofer. This discussion is simply silly and reflects how poor "audio literacy" most readers have...

Nearfield%20Measurements%20compared%20to%20Farfield%20On-Axis.png
 

napilopez

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Designing speakers will always be a game of compromise, and this certainly seems like an informed choice between different design goal as opposed to a bad result due to ignorance. And the choices made also makes sense. So again my comment was not meant as a negative comment towards Dutch, more a comment on the validity of THD.

From my perspective keeping THD will always be a design goal, but any graphs presented must be interpreted in the context of the design. Blind comparison of measurement results (which seems to be a pasttime for some on ASR) isn't necessarily meaningful.

Absolutely agree, I didn't think you were disparaging the speaker:)
 
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Kvalsvoll

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A $12,000 set of speakers shouldn't need such a discussion.

For most of us, a lot of money for loudspeakers, so we demand they are flawless in performance.

However, it is not that simple. A speaker system at this price, and add in constraints for physical size so they can actually be placed in a normal home, there will be compromises. Limitations in laws of physics, as well as some consideration for cost.

Then it sure seems like this is more of a measurement anomaly, and then the question is if this really is a fault that has relevance outside of looking bad on-paper.
 

Purité Audio

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I believe D&d are considering a totally un compromised loudspeaker, but as Kvalsvoll states there are size and cost implications, the 8C is I believe a sensible compromise.
Keith
 

Dialectic

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I believe D&d are considering a totally un compromised loudspeaker
Very interesting and exciting news. However, my experiences in Asia suggest that the kinds of folks who pay in the high five or six figures USD for loudspeakers are unlikely to see the appeal of any fully integrated active loudspeaker that uses a DSP crossover.

And already owning the 8Cs, I hope we see D&D produce a supplemental midrange/subwoofer/bass stand solution that can be integrated via the XLR connections and configured through the Ethernet interface...
 

Purité Audio

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Totally agree, technically literate and rich enough is a relatively small demographic, I will have to get a pair though, should they make them!
Keith
 

Soniclife

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Yes, D&D8c sealed woofers are flat down to 25Hz free-air. Supposing one is listening to a stereo pair there is 4x8" surface area for bass. I think that is much more capacity than most people have in their subwoofer. This discussion is simply silly and reflects how poor "audio literacy" most readers have...

Nearfield%20Measurements%20compared%20to%20Farfield%20On-Axis.png
Agreed. The unit that is struggling with distortion, ignoring if it's audible, is the midrange unit at the bottom of it's working range, because of the cardioid. A stand unit for under the speaker would be more benefit if it added more of these midrange units, and then rolled then off after a few hundred Hz. Extra subs on the back of this unit would be nice as well, but less important, and if you need them really big subs would make more difference.
 

Soniclife

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Great review @haridas, the globes really illustrate to me how speakers like this are different from the norm.
Interesting to see that although they do well on the preference score, they have probably outsmarted it.
 

Dialectic

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Totally agree, technically literate and rich enough is a relatively small demographic, I will have to get a pair though, should they make them!
Keith
Of course you will - you seem to get all the best stuff (perhaps excluding Harman products because of their odd distribution arrangement in the UK).

I worry that a super-8C will become the new Beolab 90--a technically impressive product that fails to find a market.
Agreed. The unit that is struggling with distortion, ignoring if it's audible, is the midrange unit at the bottom of it's working range, because of the cardioid. A stand unit for under the speaker would be more benefit if it added more of these midrange units, and then rolled then off after a few hundred Hz. Extra subs on the back of this unit would be nice as well, but less important, and if you need them really big subs would make more difference.
Now that I am aware of the distortion measurement, I would shell out the $$$ for a bass tower with an additional midrange (or two) and more woofers on the back even though I probably couldn't hear a difference...
 

Pearljam5000

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People mainly mention the bass performance but I wonder about the treble, has anyone compared it to Genelec or Neumann? Are they generally bright or "smooth"? (sorry for the non scientific terms)
 
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