Does Op-amp Rolling Work?

[DMB90]

Well, you can find numerous studies on audibility thresholds, but you can always try it for yourself with some synthetic tests.
In my case *anything* mixed -80dB below a signal that regularly hits full-scale essentially can't be heard. Not a hard threshold to clear.

As I have mentioned before I have a QA403 audio analyzer. I also have a CLIO pocket. They may not be the top research tools but they do the job.

 

[Labjr]

How do you measure soundstage? Go ahead and explain to me how you do that. Bring the details. Don't just tell me it got wider, deeper, etc. Tell me how exactly you measure it.

With a tape measure?

 

[SIY]

As I have mentioned before I have a QA403 audio analyzer. I also have a CLIO pocket. They may not be the top research tools but they do the job.

Those are irrelevant for ears-only listening tests. Which we're all waiting for.

 

[im_gumby]

But all of your analogies are flawed because you are handicapping them each time you use the "lets say/look at it this way" phrase. If someone was going to test the difference between two different bullets, entrance/exit wounds, penetrating power, armor plate level pentration, etc are all things we know should be objectively tested to0, along with other metrics you listed.

Sure. that's the problem w analogies.

How do you measure soundstage? Go ahead and explain to me how you do that. Bring the details. Don't just tell me it got wider, deeper, etc. Tell me how exactly you measure it.

That's my question... you just said that sound stage is based on the signal so a change in sound stage would be a change in the signal.
(BTW we're talking about the description of ... I changed <x> and the sound stage seemed wider or smaller... )

"sound stage" isn't a function of opamps, it's created by speakers interacting in a room and can be predicted by measuring frequency response and dispersion. Unless you've got an extraordinarily broken design, your preamp and amplifier are not going to be altering the frequency response and cannot alter dispersion.

Everything you've posted here seems to boil down to "there must be a difference, so you must not be measuring properly".

There's one sure-fire way to learn if the measurements aren't measuring everything, and that's to do properly controlled blind listening tests. If listeners can consistently hear a difference when the measurements say there isn't one, then we're not measuring the right things. If the measurements say there's no difference and listeners in a properly controlled test also say there's no difference, there's no difference.

I'm not aware of any properly-controlled blind tests that show a audible differences when opamp rolling, so I'm going to err on the side of the measurements and say changing out your opamps is a waste of time and money. If you've got access to some controlled test results that show otherwise, please share them, I'm sure everyone would like to see them.

Ok and here's a disconnect.

When you talk to people who roll the op amps and then talk about the changes in what they hear... they are using the same speakers or iems. So the only change was the op amp. So if they claim they heard a change... and everything else was constant what do you think was responsible for their observation? (Besides the edibles kicking in...)

So when you hear people talk about how there seems to be more control over the bass, the music is 'cleaner'... etc ... what is being said is that its all in their head that they are imaging it. I don't buy that. Someone does a listening test. Yet some here are skeptical and point out flaws.

And this goes back to the argument that there is no sonic difference in these op amps because they are all measuring roughly the same and that any difference is below what we can hear.

If I were to swap out the op amps.. and go back and forth... and then claim there was a difference... you'll say that I was imagining it.

But here's the kicker... the one person who did these tests... It was buried in the conversations that someone gave the link ... He said that in one of the tests he allowed the listener to bring their own music. He said that one of the audiophiles could correctly identify the differences in his music so he (Fran) included it in future tests.
This leads me to believe that it is possible to hear the differences. But it would mean that you need to know the music and to be paying careful attention.

BTW Ali Expess is having a sale and I think the ASR code is still valid...

 

[BDWoody]

I'm just trying to reconcile this issue when its more than a handful of people from all walks of life that claim to hear a difference.

Key word there is claim. We try to be more evidence based. Once basic controls are put in place, we have something to discuss. Without that, it's just more of the same.

I am just a bit skeptical of both sides and believe that the truth is somewhere in the middle

The more you understand, the less it will seem that way. Either there is evidence, or there isn't.

 

[SIY]

If I were to swap out the op amps.. and go back and forth... and then claim there was a difference... you'll say that I was imagining it.

With lack of basic ears-only controls, that is overwhelmingly the most likely reason.

 

[antcollinet]

So if they claim they heard a change... and everything else was constant what do you think was responsible for their observation?

Perceptive bias.

Again

Perceptive bias

Again

Perceptive bias.

Again

Perceptive bias

It is always there. You can't stop it. The only way to eliminate it as an issue is controlled listening tests.

 

[DMB90]

Those are irrelevant for ears-only listening tests. Which we're all waiting for.

My original post was that the amp used in the video had a THDN of 0.003. NC252MP uses the same NE5532 and on this forum was tested to have THDN 0f 0.0014. So the final amplification stage of the amplifier may be the limiting factor.

 

[oleg87]

So when you hear people talk about how there seems to be more control over the bass, the music is 'cleaner'... etc ... what is being said is that its all in their head that they are imaging it. I don't buy that. Someone does a listening test. Yet some here are skeptical and point out flaws.

Well, you are free to underestimate it, but I've humbled my ears enough doing controlled listening tests to have a very healthy respect for the human imagination. The "edibles kicking in" bit should be the hint here: the brain is a wee bit more complex than an NE5532, and unlike an op-amp, there is little mystery to how it could generate complex perceptual phenomena like soundstage, slam, velvetiness, or what have you.

It's worth keeping in mind that there's a considerable cohort of audiophiles that believe absolutely crazy, physically impossible things with equal sincerity. I fully believe they "hear" these things, they're just misattributing the cause.

 

[im_gumby]

Perceptive bias.

Again

Perceptive bias

Again

Perceptive bias.

Again

Perceptive bias

It is always there. You can't stop it. The only way to eliminate it as an issue is controlled listening tests.

In one of the links where a controlled listening test was done... an audiophile who was familiar w the music he provided... could actually hear the difference.
Now the issue... if you know the piece of music... and listen closely, you can hear the difference. This is why YT reviewers like NDR and others have set evaluation tracks when comparing audio components.

Just out of curiosity... what do you listen to on your home system?
Do you use lamp cord as your speaker wires?

 

[Buckeye Amps]

Do you use lamp cord as your speaker wires?

No but you absolutely could and get the same audible result.

 

[antcollinet]

In one of the links where a controlled listening test was done

Which link where?

 

[im_gumby]

Well, you are free to underestimate it, but I've humbled my ears enough doing controlled listening tests to have a very healthy respect for the human imagination. The "edibles kicking in" bit should be the hint here: the brain is a wee bit more complex than an NE5532, and unlike an op-amp, there is little mystery to how it could generate complex perceptual phenomena like soundstage, slam, velvetiness, or what have you.

The edibles was a joke to keep things light. ;-)

I've always been a bit skeptical of things.. until I see it for myself I tend to take things with a grain of salt.

Its sort of like listening to those YT videos where they do sound clip comparisons. With my headphones... its hard to hear a difference and many times... I couldn't hear it.
But when I switched to my iems... I could. I'd go back and forth between them... and even after ... I could only hear the differences w my iems. (They are much better than the head phones.)

Now if I didn't have the iems and only listened w my headphones... and I didn't hear the difference... I'd be skeptical too.
But I could hear the difference. As to which sounded better? Got me. I thought both sounded good.

And while I am skeptical.. I'm giving some benefit of doubt to the amp rollers.

 

[SuicideSquid]

When you talk to people who roll the op amps and then talk about the changes in what they hear... they are using the same speakers or iems. So the only change was the op amp. So if they claim they heard a change... and everything else was constant what do you think was responsible for their observation? (Besides the edibles kicking in...)

There's so much information hear and elsewhere about psychoacoustics. Please review it, otherwise we're just going in circles.

For an example of the power of suggestion in audio:

I moved into a new place with my girlfriend and was setting up the surround system. I placed the subwoofer in location I thought was appropriate and was testing whether it sounded better with phase set to 0 or to 180. I had my girlfriend sit on the couch so she could judge at the listening position, and I was behind the gear flipping the switch. We both agreed that it sounded better at 180.

Then I discovered I hadn't plugged it in yet.

 

[Buckeye Amps]

You keep severely underestimating the power the brain has on listening tests/comparisons when proper controls are not implemented.

 

[BDWoody]

Do you use lamp cord as your speaker wires?

Do you believe that matters?

Where is your threshold of skepticism? Green CD markers? Shakti stones? Is there a limit to the potential improvement to be gained by 'better' (generally meaning high $$) cables than lamp cord, or does it just scale up to infinity?

How about USB or toslink? Trying to get an idea about how much of the propaganda you've bought into.

This is a good time to maybe take a break from making bad analogies and read through more of the forum where some version of this discussion has taken place somewhere around 8 million times.

 

[im_gumby]

There's so much information hear and elsewhere about psychoacoustics. Please review it, otherwise we're just going in circles.

For an example of the power of suggestion in audio:

I moved into a new place with my girlfriend and was setting up the surround system. I placed the subwoofer in location I thought was appropriate and was testing whether it sounded better with phase set to 0 or to 180. I had my girlfriend sit on the couch so she could judge at the listening position, and I was behind the gear flipping the switch. We both agreed that it sounded better at 180.

Then I discovered I hadn't plugged it in yet.

And someone made fun of my edibles comment.

 

[amirm]

That's my question... you just said that sound stage is based on the signal so a change in sound stage would be a change in the signal.

It is also my question. You all keep saying soundstage has widened, deepened, etc. You say this with every upgrade. How can the soundstage become wider and deeper constantly? Why isn't there a limit to it? You get a new DAC and soundstage expands. You get an amp and soundstage expands. You get new cables and soundstage expands. You put the devices on a stand and soundstage expands. You get AC conditioner and soundstage expands. I am asking how you are measuring this. It is a 3-D space thing, right? How do you know the actual size as to now it being larger?

 

[amirm]

Related, if the soundstage has expanded, how do you know it has not expanded beyond what the artist heard and approved? If soundstage has expanded, isn't possible that you are now hearing a fake effect that is applied to ALL music? You want every piece of music to have infinite soundstage?

 

[Buckeye Amps]

Related, if the soundstage has expanded, how do you know it has not expanded beyond what the artist heard and approved? If soundstage has expanded, isn't possible that you are now hearing a fake effect that is applied to ALL music? You want every piece of music to have infinite soundstage?

That's why copper has to be 99.99999% pure and not 99.9999%, otherwise the soundstage will not stop expanding.