• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

peng

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
2,860
Likes
2,355
Interestingly here where I live the Denon 8500HA is significantly more expensive (by 1k) than the 8500H plus its 8k board.

I wonder, are the DACs in the 8500H (not HA) guaranteed to be the AKMs? If then, it's an even better deal getting the older model.

If you look at the photos on the Denon.jp website, they talked about the new DA board (with photos) for the 6700 and 4700 but did not say anything about the 8500HA, A110 and 3700. It still shows the 8500H has the 4490 but who knows, may be the 8500H is unofficially discontinued before the DAC change?

AVC-X8500H | 13.2 ch AVサラウンドアンプ | Denon公式
 

JWAmerica

Active Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2021
Messages
298
Likes
188
The DAC choices are pretty questionable. It seems they wanted to meet the price point they had with AKM. ESS and TI have better DACs to meet the old AKM specs but they didn’t go for performance parity.
I’m aware we are splitting hairs here, 13 db difference probably won’t be audible, but the HDMI 2.1 disaster should have told them that their audience cares about little details as well. The HDMI issue affected maybe less than 5% of their audience, but the DAC choices affect 100% of their audience.
Their financial reserves to deal with problems has probably been eaten up by the HDMI issue, I highly doubt Nuvoton compensated 100% of the expenses they had.

The reviews have already been written. The average buyer will have no idea that parts and specs have been changed. I'm sure Denon/Marantz are not concerned in the slightest.
 

beren777

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 25, 2020
Messages
294
Likes
477
The reviews have already been written. The average buyer will have no idea that parts and specs have been changed. I'm sure Denon/Marantz are not concerned in the slightest.

Thanks. Is there a URL with measurements?
 

peng

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
2,860
Likes
2,355
Thanks. Is there a URL with measurements?

Right here on ASR, the 3500, 3600, 3700, 4700, 6700, 8500, 6014, 7015, 7705, all before the DA board change have been measured, but none of those with the different DA boards have been reviewed/measured yet. The AV8805 (AK4490), and AV8805A (ES9010K2M) have also been measured, there results for those two were comparable despite the lower spec of the ES9010K2M is not a factor, most likely because in those cases the DAC IC itself is not the limiting factor.

Marantz AV8805A Review (AV Processor) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

1631477241164.png
 
Last edited:

beren777

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 25, 2020
Messages
294
Likes
477
Right here on ASR, the 3500, 3600, 3700, 4700, 6700, 8500, 6014, 7015, 7705, all before the DA board change have been measured, but none of those with the different DA boards have been reviewed/measured yet. The AV8805 (AK4490), and AV8805A (ES9010K2M) have also been measured, there results for those two were comparable despite the lower spec of the ES9010K2M is not a factor, most likely because in those cases the DAC IC itself is not the limiting factor.

Marantz AV8805A Review (AV Processor) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

View attachment 152938

Thanks. I'm specifically interested in the 3700 v2. Hopefully the same logic applies, but it doesn't seem safe to assume that they put the same effort into their mid-range receivers.
 

John24

Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2021
Messages
14
Likes
9
So have we seen any comparisons between the new and old DACs? I've just ordered the new post may X4700H and feel a bit worried
 

amper42

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 21, 2020
Messages
1,171
Likes
1,547
So have we seen any comparisons between the new and old DACs? I've just ordered the new post may X4700H and feel a bit worried

I bought my Denon 4700 in Sept 2020 for $1529. I'm pretty amazed they retail for $1999 now. The good thing is they seem to be back in stock. I doubt you will notice a major difference with the DAC change. What I really like about the 4700 is the ability to use pre-amp mode with external amps and the option for AURO 3D. Hoever, with the Denon 3700 price $500 lower the decision to go with the 4700 becomes a little more difficult. Have fun!
 
Last edited:

John24

Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2021
Messages
14
Likes
9
I bought my Denon 4700 in Sept 2020 for $1529. I'm pretty amazed they retail for $1999 now. The good thing is they seem to be back in stock. I doubt you will notice a major difference with the DAC change. What I really like about the 4700 is the ability to use pre-amp mode with external amps and the option for Auto 3D. However, with the Denon 3700 price now $500 lower the decision to go with the 4700 becomes a little more difficult. Have fun!
Ahhh I see, well for me in the UK the difference was not that large, also doing part exchange of to old receiver the x4700h cost me the same as x3700h.
 

peng

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
2,860
Likes
2,355
So have we seen any comparisons between the new and old DACs? I've just ordered the new post may X4700H and feel a bit worried

It wouldn't be too bad if they use something like the ES9006. You an see the comparison between the 8805 (AK4490) and 8805A (ES9010), very comparable, but it is unlikely for them to use the ES9010 in the X4700H.
 

symphara

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
318
Likes
265
Not sure if this was mentioned here, but the HDMI bug was also fixed in the updated line:

https://www.whathifi.com/news/denon...s-built-since-may-are-free-of-the-hdmi-21-bug

Make sure the serial ends with numbers from 70001 onwards, which means that the AVR has both ESS DAC and newer bug-free HDMI chip.
How would you "make sure" of that? I have no way of knowing the serial number prior to receiving the item.

I don't understand why they haven't renamed the fixed versions, similar to 8500H -> HA.
 

John24

Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2021
Messages
14
Likes
9
How would you "make sure" of that? I have no way of knowing the serial number prior to receiving the item.

I don't understand why they haven't renamed the fixed versions, similar to 8500H -> HA.
I emailed my retailer before and asked them to check. They at least said the one I will be getting will be of the new post May batch.
 

uhdtv4me

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2021
Messages
44
Likes
37
A good rule of thumb is the date manufactured. If it was made in 2021 it will have the HDMI fix and the "new" DACs.
 

wseroyer

Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2021
Messages
75
Likes
52
I bought my Denon 4700 in Sept 2020 for $1529. I'm pretty amazed they retail for $1999 now. The good thing is they seem to be back in stock. I doubt you will notice a major difference with the DAC change. What I really like about the 4700 is the ability to use pre-amp mode with external amps and the option for AURO 3D. Hoever, with the Denon 3700 price $500 lower the decision to go with the 4700 becomes a little more difficult. Have fun!

I bought my 4700 in May of 2021 for $1399, i'm so glad I didn't wait till CEDIA 2021 to see what the new models that where never announced would look like. I'm feeling pretty good about my decision now, because my biggest concern with the 4700 was it only having one HDMI 2.1 input but they have come out with a 3 port 2.1 switching box that's controlled by the AVR so now I don't think I'll need a new AVR for a long time. I don't think they'll be coming out with the new xX800h models till 2022 so it's going to be awhile.
 

jimbob626

New Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2021
Messages
2
Likes
1
I have had a Denon AVR-X3700H sitting boxed since the end of February this year (problems moving house has prevented me from using it) and I am unsure if it would have the lesser quality DAC. This is it's serial number DBCG122012822. Does this serial number contain a manufacture date?
 

uhdtv4me

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2021
Messages
44
Likes
37
I have had a Denon AVR-X3700H sitting boxed since the end of February this year (problems moving house has prevented me from using it) and I am unsure if it would have the lesser quality DAC. This is it's serial number DBCG122012822. Does this serial number contain a manufacture date?
Pretty sure that was manuf in Dec 2020, so it is almost certainly using the original AKM DACs since the fire occurred in Nov 2020. It seems replacement DACS started hitting in 2021.
 

alik1006

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 18, 2020
Messages
39
Likes
34
Location
Jersey City
In my naivete :) I simply sent a question to Marantz and Denon via their web sites. FWIW this is what I received back:

Denon:
Thank you for contacting Denon Support, we value you as a customer and appreciate the opportunity to be of assistance!

The DAC of AVR-X8500HA is AK4490 , while the AVR-X6700h is AK4458

If you have any further questions please feel free to contact us again.
Thank you for contacting Denon Customer Support. Have a great day!

Still waiting for the reply from Marantz...
 
Last edited:

peng

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 12, 2019
Messages
2,860
Likes
2,355
In my naivete :) I simply sent a question to Marantz and Denon via their web sites. FWIW this is what I received back:

Denon:


Still waiting for the reply from Marantz...

As I mentioned before, Denon tech support, for some reason has not been very good or useful (in my experience). In this case, their response would be correct for the models made in 2020. For units made in 2021, depending on the manufacturing date, some will have different DAC chips than the 4490 and 4458, so their response is almost useless. Let's wait for Marantz, who (again just in my own experience) seemed to give more informative answers.
 
Top Bottom