Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

[multisport4me]

I just bought a AVR-X6700H manufactured in Nov 2020 - I'm hoping for the best. I should have it by next Weds. I may send my AV8805A to amir if he can test it quick and ship to my eventual EBay buyer. Unless of course, he finds that the ESS DACs somehow improved the performance of the 8805.

 

[peng]

I just bought a AVR-X6700H manufactured in Nov 2020 - I'm hoping for the best. I should have it by next Weds. I may send my AV8805A to amir if he can test it quick and ship to my eventual EBay buyer. Unless of course, he finds that the ESS DACs somehow improved the performance of the 8805.

That is possible if Marantz also upgraded the HDAM like they did with the SR8015. Do you know if the 8805A started manufacturing at about the same time (or later) as the SR8015? The ES9010K2M DAC IC is not as good as the AK4490 used in the 8805 but it is comparable to the AK4458 found in the Denon AVR-X6700H (also 4700,3700,3600 etc.) so it should be the bottleneck, the HDAM likely would be, if not upgraded to the SR8015's.

 

[multisport4me]

Pretty sure 8805A would have been manufactured in 2021 and released whenever they had the boards to also offer upgrades to 8805 customers. I can check serial number later.

I bought the AVR-X6700H for a few reasons 1) it has dual-speaker preset, which I really want. 2) the channel assignments on the 6700/8015 allows me to use height 3 as front B, front wide (or height 3, obviously) so that I can use dual speaker preset the way I'd like (the 8805A channel assignments does not allow the same terminal to be used as front B or Wide), 3) it cost less than 8015 and both are recommended by amir (well, the 2020 versions were....no clue how the 2021 revisions will turn out), and 4) the discovery of the DAC changes annoy me and put me over the edge. So I'll give the 6700 a try. I am only using it as a pre-pro. I'll miss the aesthetics of the 8805A if I stick with the 6700, but in the end, it's about the sound to me.

 

[peng]

Pretty sure 8805A would have been manufactured in 2021 and released whenever they had the boards to also offer upgrades to 8805 customers. I can check serial number later.

I bought the AVR-X6700H for a few reasons 1) it has dual-speaker preset, which I really want. 2) the channel assignments on the 6700/8015 allows me to use height 3 as front B, front wide (or height 3, obviously) so that I can use dual speaker preset the way I'd like (the 8805A channel assignments does not allow the same terminal to be used as front B or Wide), 3) it cost less than 8015 and both are recommended by amir (well, the 2020 versions were....no clue how the 2021 revisions will turn out), and 4) the discovery of the DAC changes annoy me and put me over the edge. So I'll give the 6700 a try. I am only using it as a pre-pro. I'll miss the aesthetics of the 8805A if I stick with the 6700, but in the end, it's about the sound to me.

Would you try email Marantz and try to emphasize you only want to buy one if they can confirm whether the HDAMs have been upgraded from the 8805 to those used in the SR8015? They should have no problem providing you with the info because the claimed better HDAMs for the SR8015 is public information, directly from Marantz as far as I know, based on the Youtube videos (by either or both Audioholics.com or United Sound, again only iirc..).

Regardless, if you don't need balanced I/O, 7.1 analog input and believe more in specs/measurements than in subjective reviews then the 6700 may actually be a better value than the 8805A anyway.

 

[multisport4me]

I called them yesterday, armed with specific serial numbers of units I was interested in buying, and they claim to know nothing and cannot tell by serial number. Honestly, they didn't even seem to know what I was talking about.

I believe in my ears. That is the first and most important test to me. But the 8805A is not a fully balanced and lacks some features important to me. The bench tests help as I'm a data junkie and love to see the results. But in the end, if the 6700 doesn't sound as nice as the 8805A, I'll live without the features for a while and just keep the 8805A.

I'm betting that if I use the 6700 strictly as a pre-pro, I won't notice a difference between the two at all. We'll see how it turns out.

 

[peng]

I called them yesterday, armed with specific serial numbers of units I was interested in buying, and they claim to know nothing and cannot tell by serial number. Honestly, they didn't even seem to know what I was talking about.

I believe in my ears. That is the first and most important test to me. But the 8805A is not a fully balanced and lacks some features important to me. The bench tests help as I'm a data junkie and love to see the results. But in the end, if the 6700 doesn't sound as nice as the 8805A, I'll live without the features for a while and just keep the 8805A.

I'm betting that if I use the 6700 strictly as a pre-pro, I won't notice a difference between the two at all. We'll see how it turns out.

In my experience with Marantz tech support, if you ask a technical question that you believe only their engineering team can address, you just ask them to forward it to engineering or whoever has the resource to respond accurately, and they would do it. It may take longer but they would get back to you eventually. No such luck with Denon though, they wouldn't go the extra miles for me.

As far as going by ears, over the years I found that like Dr. Toole and other experts allude to, sighted tests are simply not reliable so I would be the wrong person to comment on that topic. Lol, I couldn't even hear any difference between an AVR-X3400H and my so called (many would..) higher end separates, yet I never have trouble telling the difference between loudspeakers and recording quality of various contents.

 

[multisport4me]

LOL. So true. Lost in all of this are the content and the speakers.

 

[oupee]

In my country (europe) 8805 and 8805A are in stock. 8805A is 13% more expensive and it is stated that it has AK4490.

 

[bigguyca]

Would you try email Marantz and try to emphasize you only want to buy one if they can confirm whether the HDAMs have been upgraded from the 8805 to those used in the SR8015? They should have no problem providing you with the info because the claimed better HDAMs for the SR8015 is public information, directly from Marantz as far as I know, based on the Youtube videos (by either or both Audioholics.com or United Sound, again only iirc..).

Regardless, if you don't need balanced I/O, 7.1 analog input and believe more in specs/measurements than in subjective reviews then the 6700 may actually be a better value than the 8805A anyway.

Did you watch this video of an AV8805A teardown?

It's obvious from looking at the HDAM boards in the teardown video, that transistors have NOT been added to provide the active current sources that were added to the HDAM's in the AV8015 as replacement for resistor-based current sources in previous Marantz AVR's and AVP's. It you look at the one board in the AV8015 that has the HDAM's, you will clearly note the added transistors. Marantz also claims that these current sources were added, but don't trust and do verify.

The AV8805A also lacks the current sources that have been added to the opamps in the DAC filter circuits in, for example,the X6700H and AV8015. These current sources cause the outputs of the opamps to be operated as Class A instead of Class A/B. The opamps used in these products are far from the state-of-the-art, so operation in Class A likely helps.

It's hard to tell from the video, but the AV8805A also appears to lack the upgrade to thin-film 1% surface mount transistors in key locations found in many Denon AVR products. The thick-film 5% surface mount transistors that are still likely used, have added noise and distortion vs. thin-film units.

 

[multisport4me]

If I could find an SR8015 for a good price and knew what I was buying, I'd have likely stuck with Marantz since it looks nice with the Marantz amps I have. But I just happen to find a "good" X6700H for a good price and think it will work out just fine as a pre-pro until D&M comes out with a new flagship model that will outperform it. Yes, I will miss the XLR connectors but the 8805A isn't a fully balanced pre-pro anyway. I should note - the 8805A sounds good to me subjectively - I doubt too many folks would ever notice the difference. There are just other features I want in the 6700/8015 missing in the flagship models and this change in DACs just pushed me over the edge. I may send amir my 8805A for testing once I listen to both and decide which one I'm keeping.

 

[Geoflux]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?goto/post&id=818513

For the record let me say this again, I firmly believe the likes of Denon AVR-X3700H, Marantz SR60156 and their higher models will not use the PCM5102a (that is a stereo/2 channel DAC IC that has only 10 pins) to replace the AK4458. If the PCM5102 is used at all, it would be for Z2/3 and it would be a good thing because it has slightly better specs than the PCM5100 found in current D+M models including the AVR-X8500H, for the secondary zones.

Even if pevely got his info from a Denon product manager, it can still be false information. A much more reliable source would be Denon/Marantz's engineering, official website etc... The official website shows the new DAC board (posted again below, with link). That product manage who emailed @pevely is not doing D+M fans as well as D+M itself any favor for sure. Imagine the low SINAD (lucky to get near 90 would be my guess) we can expect if it really is the PCM5102A!!

If in the very unlikely event that they actually use the PCM5102 for the main zones, I would then stay away from D+M, not that I think I can hear a difference but it would be a matter of principle, why go backward?

I posted the following before but I guess it got loss by now so here it is again. It is from the Denon Japan website. One can magnify the photo of the new DAC board and can see two DAC ICs that have the same pin configuration as the 40 pin AK4458. From the photo, there is no evidence of the 10 pin 2 channel PCM5102 being use, if it is, there will be at least 8 of them in order to cover the 13.2 channel plus the secondary zones.

So I am still hopeful the replacement chip will be something much better (in terms of specs) than the PCM5102A that has THD of only -93 dB.

AVC-X6700H | 11.2chプレミアムAVサラウンドアンプ | Denon公式

32-bit compatible high-quality sound D / A converter
The 32-bit compatible high-quality sound D / A converter selected by the careful listening test by the sound manager is adopted. The D / A conversion circuit has eliminated mutual interference by mounting it on a dedicated board independent of a video circuit and a network circuit. In addition, the post filter is operated in class A, and the performance of the D / A converter is maximized by using sound quality countermeasure parts such as thin film polymer multilayer capacitors and thin film resistors.
The D / A converter IC has been changed since the spring of 2021. Since the DAC is a component that has a particularly large effect on the sound quality of the product, when changing it, the circuit is redesigned and the sound tuning is performed in the same process as when developing the new product. We continue to deliver products of the same quality as before, while maintaining the same sound quality, performance, and functions as before.

View attachment 144460

My updated X3700h has 7 of the pcm5102a chips from what I could see. Could have been more or I could have been looking at the wrong board but definitely read the chips right. This sounds like a lot for just secondary zones. Makes me weary now.

 

[Jbrunwa]

My updated X3700h has 7 of the pcm5102a chips from what I could see. Could have been more or I could have been looking at the wrong board but definitely read the chips right. This sounds like a lot for just secondary zones. Makes me weary now.

Yes, that pretty much confirms 7 pcm5103a are the replacement on the 3700H. I have heard through a reliable third party that my 8500ha has 8 of the ES9010k2m but I’m still waiting to hear back from Denon to hear it from the horses mouth. We will have to wait for ASR measurements to see if there is any change to performance. It is entirely possible that some other components have also changed, possibly for the good.

 

[multisport4me]

Yes, that pretty much confirms 7 pcm5103a are the replacement on the 3700H. I have heard through a reliable third party that my 8500ha has 8 of the ES9010k2m but I’m still waiting to hear back from Denon to hear it from the horses mouth. We will have to wait for ASR measurements to see if there is any change to performance. It is entirely possible that some other components have also changed, possibly for the good.

I can confirm that the 8805A absolutely has the ESS DACs. I checked mine.

 

[peng]

Yes, that pretty much confirms 7 pcm5103a are the replacement on the 3700H. I have heard through a reliable third party that my 8500ha has 8 of the ES9010k2m but I’m still waiting to hear back from Denon to hear it from the horses mouth. We will have to wait for ASR measurements to see if there is any change to performance. It is entirely possible that some other components have also changed, possibly for the good.

Return or not will be up to you obviously, imo you likely won't be able to hear a difference (all else being equal) just because the PCM5102A (assume your 5103a was a typo) has a lower THD+N spec than the AK4458 by 13 dB. For me I would return it and investigate if the higher model such as the X4700H has the 8 channel DACs that are more comparable to the AK4458. My following post shows the two D/A board from Denon.jp. You can see the two 8 channel DAC ICs at the lower half of the photos in both boards have the same number of pins, so the new one definitely do not show the PCM5102A for the main zone. Admittedly that's my basis of not believing the rumor of the PCM5102A being the replacement all along, that is, I based it on Denon's photo of the X4700H and X6700H's D/A boards. Now it would seem that based on your finding on the X3700H, maybe Denon started to use the lower end DAC ICs in the lower models.

The upper photo is the D/A board for the X4700H with the replacement IC, the lower photo shows the board for the X4500H that obviously have the original one, i.e. the AK4458:

(1) Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H | Page 3 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

If my assumption is wrong, and the whole line from X3700H through X6700H now all have the PCM5102A for the main zone, then I guess the Denon.jp has the wrong info about the D/A board, and that would seem incredible as it is the official Denon Japan website (so I don't think so..).

 

[peng]

I can confirm that the 8805A absolutely has the ESS DACs. I checked mine.

I am sure you are aware of the fact that the ESS DAC, according to that Youtube video, is the ES9010K2M that has only -106 dB THD+N vs the original AK4490's -112 dB. It is also 4 dB lower in DNR, than the AK4490. That does not mean it is bad, just significantly higher distortion plus noise.

AK4490 English Datasheet (akm.com)
ES9010K2M-Datasheet-v3.0.pdf (esstech.com)

 

[Daniel0]

I am sure you are aware of the fact that the ESS DAC, according to that Youtube video, is the ES9010K2M that has only -106 dB THD+N vs the original AK4490's -112 dB. It is also 4 dB lower in DNR, than the AK4490. That does not mean it is bad, just significantly higher distortion plus noise.

AK4490 English Datasheet (akm.com)
ES9010K2M-Datasheet-v3.0.pdf (esstech.com)

The DAC choices are pretty questionable. It seems they wanted to meet the price point they had with AKM. ESS and TI have better DACs to meet the old AKM specs but they didn’t go for performance parity.
I’m aware we are splitting hairs here, 13 db difference probably won’t be audible, but the HDMI 2.1 disaster should have told them that their audience cares about little details as well. The HDMI issue affected maybe less than 5% of their audience, but the DAC choices affect 100% of their audience.
Their financial reserves to deal with problems has probably been eaten up by the HDMI issue, I highly doubt Nuvoton compensated 100% of the expenses they had.

 

[peng]

The DAC choices are pretty questionable. It seems they wanted to meet the price point they had with AKM. ESS and TI have better DACs to meet the old AKM specs but they didn’t go for performance parity.
I’m aware we are splitting hairs here, 13 db difference probably won’t be audible, but the HDMI 2.1 disaster should have told them that their audience cares about little details as well. The HDMI issue affected maybe less than 5% of their audience, but the DAC choices affect 100% of their audience.
Their financial reserves to deal with problems has probably been eaten up by the HDMI issue, I highly doubt Nuvoton compensated 100% of the expenses they had.

Also, when they bragged about using the ex AKM flagship AK4490 for the AV8805 and AVR-X8500H that's fine, but if they replaced the AK4490 with the ES9010K2M in the AV8805A that has lower specs, they should also tell people. By not saying anything, new customers may reasonably assume they are still getting the AK4490, or something better (in terms of specs). That does not sound fair.

 

[dricks2222]

Hi,

i own a x8500H, and was interested with buying the HDMI2.1 upgrade
https://www.denon.com/en-us/product/av-receivers/avr-x8500h-hdmi-8k-upgrade

But then i saw that they downgraded the AK4490EQ with an ESS 9010 on the new x8500HA
So, is the DAC also on this card too, and thus, will my 4490 be replaced with a 9010 ?
Or is it on other parts, and i'll keep my 4490 safe ?

Thanks for your help!

 

[peng]

Hi,

i own a x8500H, and was interested with buying the HDMI2.1 upgrade
https://www.denon.com/en-us/product/av-receivers/avr-x8500h-hdmi-8k-upgrade

But then i saw that they downgraded the AK4490EQ with an ESS 9010 on the new x8500HA
So, is the DAC also on this card too, and thus, will my 4490 be replaced with a 9010 ?
Or is it on other parts, and i'll keep my 4490 safe ?

Thanks for your help!

The DACs are on a different board.

It looks like this:

 

[symphara]

Interestingly here where I live the Denon 8500HA is significantly more expensive (by 1k) than the 8500H plus its 8k board.

I wonder, are the DACs in the 8500H (not HA) guaranteed to be the AKMs? If then, it's an even better deal getting the older model.