Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

[peng]

I just read that you mentioned the preamp av8805a. I read that it (along with the x8500ha) has the ESS ES9010 now. They both used to have the AK4490. In the case of these two units, the ESS is comparable to the AK4490. Other major competitors (to these two models) also use the ES9010. Whereas in the case of the x3700, x4700, x6700 the PCM5102A is not a comparable DAC to the AK4458 no other competitor uses this Texas Instrument DAC. That is what's concerning. Again, until we have a teardown who knows what's really in these post-May units. But, at least for now, I have not read any rumors that Marantz changed the DACS of the units that have the AK4458.

PS - if it turns out that the Marantz did keep the AK4458, it does make sense because at it's core, Marantz needs to have that "Marantz sound". That sound requires a warm sounding DAC like the AK4458. I've read that the PCM5102 isn't able to produce the "warmer" Marantz sound. However, if it turns out that Marantz did in fact use a DAC that isn't known to produce "warm"-er sounds, then this is a grave act indeed. It will be a sad day for Marantz aficionados around the world. Again, I am just 2 weeks new to this whole AVR world. I am neither a Denon or Marantz enthusiast. I never even heard of Denon and Marantz before 2 weeks ago. But in my one week of research, it is clear that Marantz owners buy it because of the "Marantz sound". And, Denon owners seem to buy it for the purity (very low distortion) of the sound. I merely want my money's worth for this new AVR of mine =)

I have my doubts because:

1) In my opinion it doesn't make sense for Denon to replace an eight ch AK4458 with 7 to 8 stereo PCM5102a. I would bet 10:1 that it won't be the PCM chip but we'll have to wait and see.
2) The ES9010K2M has lower specs than the AK4490, though not by much.
3) If you buy in to Marantz marketing hype about the warm sound thing then there isn't much point I can say.

You also seem to believe the AK4458 has a warm sound so again what can I say, other than I wonder for the
why you didn't get a Marantz in the first place if the warm sound is what you want. I have seen no evidence the AKM chip will give you the warm sound but since you believe it I think you will hear it for sure lol..

 

[Oski1997]

I have my doubts because:

1) In my opinion it doesn't make sense for Denon to replace an eight ch AK4458 with 7 to 8 stereo PCM5102a. I would bet 10:1 that it won't be the PCM chip but we'll have to wait and see.
2) The ES9010K2M has lower specs than the AK4490, though not by much.
3) If you buy in to Marantz marketing hype about the warm sound thing then there isn't much point I can say.

You also seem to believe the AK4458 has a warm sound so again what can I say, other than I wonder for the
why you didn't get a Marantz in the first place if the warm sound is what you want. I have seen no evidence the AKM chip will give you the warm sound but since you believe it I think you will hear it for sure lol..

I don’t even know what that “warm” Marantz sound is (LoL). It’s just what I read on-line. I only want an AVR that has the new working HDMI 2.1 chip and an AKM DAC. At this time, the only option is the Marantz. Again, only because there hasn’t been a teardown of the post-May units.

 

[Oski1997]

I have my doubts because:

1) In my opinion it doesn't make sense for Denon to replace an eight ch AK4458 with 7 to 8 stereo PCM5102a. I would bet 10:1 that it won't be the PCM chip but we'll have to wait and see.
2) The ES9010K2M has lower specs than the AK4490, though not by much.
3) If you buy in to Marantz marketing hype about the warm sound thing then there isn't much point I can say.

You also seem to believe the AK4458 has a warm sound so again what can I say, other than I wonder for the
why you didn't get a Marantz in the first place if the warm sound is what you want. I have seen no evidence the AKM chip will give you the warm sound but since you believe it I think you will hear it for sure lol..

Btw - I want to thank you for your thoughtful replies. I can tell you care about this subject matter. I've been feeling frustrated with this whole process. Right now it feels like I just need to make a decision with the information I have and let the cards fall where they fall. You have been very helpful. I am grateful for your time!

 

[peng]

Btw - I want to thank you for your thoughtful replies. I can tell you care about this subject matter. I've been feeling frustrated with this whole process. Right now it feels like I just need to make a decision with the information I have and let the cards fall where they fall. You have been very helpful. I am grateful for your time!

Thank you for the kind words. The SR8015 seems like one of the best AVR for a long time so I hope that's the one you are getting.

 

[Oski1997]

Thank you for the kind words. The SR8015 seems like one of the best AVR for a long time so I hope that's the one you are getting.

I was looking up videos on the history of Denon and Marantz. I came across the A110 AVR (he Anniversary Edition). It's very well made. Do you know if Anniversary Editions from the past have kept their value? My father gave me a Rolex (before he died two years ago) as an heirloom. I told him it would be a poor investment because I thought it would lose it's value (like a luxury car). But, he was right. It has doubled in value in just 3 years. I was thinking if Anniversary Editions grow in value over time, I should buy the A110. Any thoughts?

 

[peng]

I was looking up videos on the history of Denon and Marantz. I came across the A110 AVR (he Anniversary Edition). It's very well made. Do you know if Anniversary Editions from the past have kept their value? My father gave me a Rolex (before he died two years ago) as an heirloom. I told him it would be a poor investment because I thought it would lose it's value (like a luxury car). But, he was right. It has doubled in value in just 3 years. I was thinking if Anniversary Editions grow in value over time, I should buy the A110. Any thoughts?

I think the A110 would likely top the chart if measured on ASR but it won't be my choice because of the price. I highly doubt an avr could appreciate in value like Rolex watches. Amps may..

The SR8015 would still be my choice and is the only Marantz model including the AVPs I would buy. I don't like that slight roll of from 10 kHz if digital inputs are used, but I know for sure it won't make an audible difference for me.

 

[Oski1997]

I'm literally 2 weeks new to all of this. Why would an amp appreciate and not an avr. They both do exactly the same thing (when I looked at the features). I don't quite understand what an SR unit does that an AV unit does not. Can you explain?

 

[beren777]

I'm literally 2 weeks new to all of this. Why would an amp appreciate and not an avr. They both do exactly the same thing (when I looked at the features). I don't quite understand what an SR unit does that an AV unit does not. Can you explain?

An AVR has bundled functionality, some of which changes as standards change. Look at an AVR from 5 years ago, or 10 years ago, and compare the inputs/outputs to what you would expect today.

An amplifier just amplifies. It doesn't care what the source is.

 

[Oski1997]

An AVR has bundled functionality, some of which changes as standards change. Look at an AVR from 5 years ago, or 10 years ago, and compare the inputs/outputs to what you would expect today.

An amplifier just amplifies. It doesn't care what the source is.

Great, thank you

 

[peng]

I'm literally 2 weeks new to all of this. Why would an amp appreciate and not an avr. They both do exactly the same thing (when I looked at the features). I don't quite understand what an SR unit does that an AV unit does not. Can you explain?

When I said "amp", I mean integrated amp or power amp so no they don't do exactly the same thing as AV receivers. I would think they can keep their value better because some amps can last for a very long time and because they really don't get outdated much if at all. AV receivers are very feature rich and they do get outdated much quicker. Just look at the different versions of HDMI and HDCP within the last 10 years. So their price may even go up over time because of inflation, not because they actually worth more in real sense as they grow older.

I can give you a couple of examples:

I have a pair of Marantz SC-7 and SM-7 that my brother bought in 1979 for about $900, now a 42 years old pair in good condition could go for $2,000 to $3,500.

Marantz SM-7 Specifications Marantz

Marantz SC-7 Specifications Marantz

https://www.ebay.com/itm/334157135324?hash=item4dcd513ddc:g:pkIAAOSwCQNhS003

Now take a look of the Denon integrated amp, the PMA-SX1 limited edition:

In 2020 it was listed for 780,000 Y, or USD 6,825
Now it is listed for 902,000 Y, or USD 7,900 and used one doesn't seem to be available yet.

The limited edition is supposed to have a limit set for production. The PMA amp is rated 50 W into 8 ohms or 100 W into 4 ohms.

 

[Oski1997]

When I said "amp", I mean integrated amp or power amp so no they don't do exactly the same thing as AV receivers. I would think they can keep their value better because some amps can last for a very long time and because they really don't get outdated much if at all. AV receivers are very feature rich and they do get outdated much quicker. Just look at the different versions of HDMI and HDCP within the last 10 years. So their price may even go up over time because of inflation, not because they actually worth more in real sense as they grow older.

I can give you a couple of examples:

I have a pair of Marantz SC-7 and SM-7 that my brother bought in 1979 for about $900, now a 42 years old pair in good condition could go for $2,000 to $3,500.

Marantz SM-7 Specifications Marantz

Marantz SC-7 Specifications Marantz

https://www.ebay.com/itm/334157135324?hash=item4dcd513ddc:g:pkIAAOSwCQNhS003

Now take a look of the Denon integrated amp, the PMA-SX1 limited edition:

In 2020 it was listed for 780,000 Y, or USD 6,825
Now it is listed for 902,000 Y, or USD 7,900 and used one doesn't seem to be available yet.

The limited edition is supposed to have a limit set for production. The PMA amp is rated 50 W into 8 ohms or 100 W into 4 ohms.

Oh wow, that was a good investment. I'll take a look at the SX1. Thanks for the info.

 

[Jkaiser3]

Hi, I recently picked up a refurbished denon x4700h that has the new hdmi board and a “7” in the fifth digit from the right. I did request an old one but this is what came. My question is, do we know definatively know what dacs are being put into denon for a replacement of the AKM DAC of old? I’m wondering if it’s throwing a fuss over, but I’d swear there is a different sound signature than I expected coming from denon and demoing an older x4700h. It has power and good frequency response but lacks expression and dynamics, also the bass is digital sounding, not authoritative.

 

[symphara]

Hi, I recently picked up a refurbished denon x4700h that has the new hdmi board and a “7” in the fifth digit from the right. I did request an old one but this is what came. My question is, do we know definatively know what dacs are being put into denon for a replacement of the AKM DAC of old? I’m wondering if it’s throwing a fuss over, but I’d swear there is a different sound signature than I expected coming from denon and demoing an older x4700h. It has power and good frequency response but lacks expression and dynamics, also the bass is digital sounding, not authoritative.

I bought a new 4700H a couple of weeks ago (I'm sure it was manufactured recently, the dealer got it from Denon in October) and to me it has the same "sound signature" (or more like, the lack of) as my 8500H with its AKM4490EQ.

 

[voodooless]

I’d swear there is a different sound signature than I expected coming from denon and demoing an older x4700h.

Let me guess: different room, different speakers, different setup?

 

[peng]

I bought a new 4700H a couple of weeks ago (I'm sure it was manufactured recently, the dealer got it from Denon in October) and to me it has the same "sound signature" (or more like, the lack of) as my 8500H with its AKM4490EQ.

Various experts have said this time and again that in order to have more meaningful comparison listening test results, one has to do it in controlled tests and in DBT. You experience vs Jkaiser3 just demoed this in lightning speed, thank you..

 

[peng]

By the way, do we have legal experts on ASR who can comment on if there is any legal implications for Denon and Marantz to still refer to the AKM DAC ICs in their downloadable information sheets for their AVR/AVP line ups?

I don't remember if they have the fine prints that say something like D+M reserved the right to substitute any parts anytime without notice. Even if such fine prints are there, so they don't have to give notice in the form of announcement as Denon.jp did for the 4700,6700,2700 and 1600, but isn't it still wrong for them to not update their information sheets?

 

[peng]

I have not read any rumors that Marantz changed the DACS of the units that have the AK4458.

You don't need to read rumors on that, I just realized someone has posted this months ago:

Here's the official words, Marantz's are affected too, as expected. The rep who told you about the "new policy" thing seems to be false.

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/official-2020-marantz-sr8015-owners-thread.3161282/page-28#post-60687525

At that time only the SR8015, SR6015, NR1711 were identified, may be more by now, you can check on the Marantz.jp site:

You can check on the Marantz.jp site to see if there are any further notices:

https://www.marantz.jp/ja-jp/news/news/21003

 

[symphara]

Various experts have said this time and again that in order to have more meaningful comparison listening test results, one has to do it in controlled tests and in DBT. You experience vs Jkaiser3 just demoed this in lightning speed, thank you..

Of course - my post was merely intended to assuage what I regard as mostly unjustified fears about the replacement DAC.

I could be wrong, but the new 4700H sounded fine to me: there's that crisp Denon sound and low (inaudible to me) noise floor.

 

[Jkaiser3]

Let me guess: different room, different speakers, different your guess is right. Seriously.

 

[Jkaiser3]

Nothing has changed in my setup but a new denon x4700 that has had surgery with boards from the sr6015 inside from what I could see, there has been major alterations in the guts the boards are different colors and at least 2 of them. My setup is the same my old denon went black out no power soon after purchase. I went refurb because I wanted another older x4700h. I don’t care about gaming 2.1 problems. Got a new one and it is invariable a step down in performance. No question my front mains have the sound stage and expression and low level detail of a 500 receivers surround sounds.