Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

[alik1006]

As I mentioned before, Denon tech support, for some reason has not been very good or useful (in my experience). In this case, their response would be correct for the models made in 2020. For units made in 2021, depending on the manufacturing date, some will have different DAC chips than the 4490 and 4458, so their response is almost useless. Let's wait for Marantz, who (again just in my own experience) seemed to give more informative answers.

I doubt I'm going to hear from them...

 

[peng]

I doubt I'm going to hear from them...

I could take anywhere from a few days to a couple of weeks.

 

[HerbertWest]

FYI I just received this answer from Denon support:

Subject​

X4700h DAC

Response By Email (Customer Care Team) (11/15/2021 06:21 PM) Hello [….] As per checking, the DAC in these receiver is AK4458.

 

[alik1006]

I could take anywhere from a few days to a couple of weeks.

Well. The wait is over:

Unfortunately our engineers no longer provide this information. (c) Customer Support Denon | Marantz

I guess it is some poor DAC. Otherwise they would not keep it a secret.
It's a pity. I was really going to buy Denon or Marantz.

 

[peng]

Well. The wait is over:


I guess it is some poor DAC. Otherwise they would not keep it a secret.
It's a pity. I was really going to buy Denon or Marantz.

Thank you for the feed back. So much conflicting info right now, someone should contact D+M in Japan directly lol.. Still, I would stick to my guess that it would be the ES9006 and if so, performance may drop a dB or 2, no big deal, but I know we should not be guessing.

By the way now you can see why I thought M would do a better job than D's customer support. At least M took the time to contact his engineering counterpart and tell you the truth. D (see post#163, and of course your own post#159..) simply just checked, most likely with the marketing info and go the old info.

 

[Oski1997]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?goto/post&id=818513

For the record let me say this again, I firmly believe the likes of Denon AVR-X3700H, Marantz SR60156 and their higher models will not use the PCM5102a (that is a stereo/2 channel DAC IC that has only 10 pins) to replace the AK4458. If the PCM5102 is used at all, it would be for Z2/3 and it would be a good thing because it has slightly better specs than the PCM5100 found in current D+M models including the AVR-X8500H, for the secondary zones.

Even if pevely got his info from a Denon product manager, it can still be false information. A much more reliable source would be Denon/Marantz's engineering, official website etc... The official website shows the new DAC board (posted again below, with link). That product manage who emailed @pevely is not doing D+M fans as well as D+M itself any favor for sure. Imagine the low SINAD (lucky to get near 90 would be my guess) we can expect if it really is the PCM5102A!!

If in the very unlikely event that they actually use the PCM5102 for the main zones, I would then stay away from D+M, not that I think I can hear a difference but it would be a matter of principle, why go backward?

I posted the following before but I guess it got loss by now so here it is again. It is from the Denon Japan website. One can magnify the photo of the new DAC board and can see two DAC ICs that have the same pin configuration as the 40 pin AK4458. From the photo, there is no evidence of the 10 pin 2 channel PCM5102 being use, if it is, there will be at least 8 of them in order to cover the 13.2 channel plus the secondary zones.

So I am still hopeful the replacement chip will be something much better (in terms of specs) than the PCM5102A that has THD of only -93 dB.

AVC-X6700H | 11.2chプレミアムAVサラウンドアンプ | Denon公式

32-bit compatible high-quality sound D / A converter
The 32-bit compatible high-quality sound D / A converter selected by the careful listening test by the sound manager is adopted. The D / A conversion circuit has eliminated mutual interference by mounting it on a dedicated board independent of a video circuit and a network circuit. In addition, the post filter is operated in class A, and the performance of the D / A converter is maximized by using sound quality countermeasure parts such as thin film polymer multilayer capacitors and thin film resistors.
The D / A converter IC has been changed since the spring of 2021. Since the DAC is a component that has a particularly large effect on the sound quality of the product, when changing it, the circuit is redesigned and the sound tuning is performed in the same process as when developing the new product. We continue to deliver products of the same quality as before, while maintaining the same sound quality, performance, and functions as before.

View attachment 144460

I called Marantz yesterday. The representative told me Denon receivers manufactured after May 2021 have been getting the PCM1502 because of the chip shortage from AKM due to the fire last October. Because of the low supply, Sound United is only putting the superior AKM 4458 into their ”premium“ brand Marantz.

 

[Oski1997]

FYI I just received this answer from Denon support:

Subject​

X4700h DAC

Response By Email (Customer Care Team) (11/15/2021 06:21 PM) Hello [….] As per checking, the DAC in these receiver is AK4458.

I called Marantz yesterday. The representative told me Denon receivers manufactured after May 2021 have been getting the PCM1502 because of the chip shortage from AKM due to the fire last October. Because of the low supply, Sound United is only putting the superior AKM 4458 into their ”premium“ brand Marantz. Do you think the representative was looking at the DAC information that was being used before the May 2021 change? Maybe an old product detail sheet?

 

[peng]

I called Marantz yesterday. The representative told me Denon receivers manufactured after May 2021 have been getting the PCM1502 because of the chip shortage from AKM due to the fire last October. Because of the low supply, Sound United is only putting the superior AKM 4458 into their ”premium“ brand Marantz. Do you think the representative was looking at the DAC information that was being used before the May 2021 change? Maybe an old product detail sheet?

As I responded to your ther post, I felt the same about the "rep" you talked to, that he/she did not have the facts. Probably got it via hearsay as the PCM5102A (he/she couldn't even get the number right??, I rest my case). Instead of returning you unit, may be contact Amir and convince him to measure it in a hurry because.. Then you can return it if the results don't look good. I think if you do that many members will appreciate, some may even offer to help pay for shipping.

Marantz always want people to believe they are the premium brand, but by now we should know what that really mean... Don't believe in those marketing hypes, better to trust specs and measurements lol..

 

[Oski1997]

Fifth number from right in serial number indicates new DAC (PCM5102a) models. If the number is 7, then it is new DAC implementatioI calle dM

As I responded to your ther post, I felt the same about the "rep" you talked to, that he/she did not have the facts. Probably got it via hearsay as the PCM5102A (he/she couldn't even get the number right??, I rest my case). Instead of returning you unit, may be contact Amir and convince him to measure it in a hurry because.. Then you can return it if the results don't look good. I think if you do that many members will appreciate, some may even offer to help pay for shipping.

Marantz always want people to believe they are the premium brand, but by now we should know what that really mean... Don't believe in those marketing hypes, better to trust specs and measurements lol..

I posted this reply to another person so here it is again (I didn't want to re-type a similar answer - lol).

This whole issue is convoluted. I'm just 2 weeks new to this whole AVR world. I literally just purchased my first set of speakers and AVR last week. As you can imagine, I've never done more research on a product in my life. I even had to go to Japanese websites using my VPN to read translated responses from Denon to Japanese customers informing them that the post-May 2021 x-series Denons had different DACs (and another different component which I didn't bother to read about). I have spent over 40 hours this past week researching Denons practices, supply chains, CEO speeches/comments. Again, I'm only 2 weeks new to this world. I've had to learn a whole new language. But, for someone new to this world, it is clear that Denon has not been transparent about the changes they have made their x-series ARVs. Usually when companies change manufacturers (like Apple using LG and Samsung Oled screens but not telling us which serial numbers have which manufacturer) it's not a big deal because it doesn't significantly change the experience of the product. But Denon changing a DAC to a lower quality DAC (and charging us $300-$500 more for these post-May units) is as significant as Apple changing their A-series processors to a Qualcomm Snapdragon processor and not telling its customers about the changes in efficiency, power, etc. Since I am new to all of this I am not going to get involved (sorry to say). I have already posted my information in a handful of forums and youtube channels with industry "leaders" but no one seems to care enough to do anything with this information. If those individuals who have spent decades keeping AVR companies like Denon informed about customer issues don't care enough to do anything about it, I'm going to assume that this industry is somehow flawed at its core.

I bought an AVR and speakers just to have a nice home theater experience watching movies with my friends and family. I never imagined I would have to do this kind of research on supply chain issues (the AKM fire last October),etc to ensure I am getting the value I expect after spending thousands of dollars on an AVR. I am done my friend. I've done my part as a neophyte to this AVR world. I've informed the people I have followed online. It is now up to them to do what they want with this information.

 

[beren777]

Has anyone measured the updated Denon receivers to see if the performance change is significant? Denon's handling the messaging and customer service very poorly by not being transparent, but has anyone verified that performance is significantly degraded?

 

[GD Fan]

As I responded to your ther post, I felt the same about the "rep" you talked to, that he/she did not have the facts. Probably got it via hearsay as the PCM5102A (he/she couldn't even get the number right??, I rest my case). Instead of returning you unit, may be contact Amir and convince him to measure it in a hurry because.. Then you can return it if the results don't look good. I think if you do that many members will appreciate, some may even offer to help pay for shipping.

Marantz always want people to believe they are the premium brand, but by now we should know what that really mean... Don't believe in those marketing hypes, better to trust specs and measurements lol..

There seem to be enough of us in this same wagon that a collective effort to cover to and from shipping to Amir should be feasible.

Working it in to his queue for testing might be another matter, however.

 

[peng]

I posted this reply to another person so here it is again (I didn't want to re-type a similar answer - lol).

This whole issue is convoluted. I'm just 2 weeks new to this whole AVR world. I literally just purchased my first set of speakers and AVR last week. As you can imagine, I've never done more research on a product in my life. I even had to go to Japanese websites using my VPN to read translated responses from Denon to Japanese customers informing them that the post-May 2021 x-series Denons had different DACs (and another different component which I didn't bother to read about). I have spent over 40 hours this past week researching Denons practices, supply chains, CEO speeches/comments. Again, I'm only 2 weeks new to this world. I've had to learn a whole new language. But, for someone new to this world, it is clear that Denon has not been transparent about the changes they have made their x-series ARVs. Usually when companies change manufacturers (like Apple using LG and Samsung Oled screens but not telling us which serial numbers have which manufacturer) it's not a big deal because it doesn't significantly change the experience of the product. But Denon changing a DAC to a lower quality DAC (and charging us $300-$500 more for these post-May units) is as significant as Apple changing their A-series processors to a Qualcomm Snapdragon processor and not telling its customers about the changes in efficiency, power, etc. Since I am new to all of this I am not going to get involved (sorry to say). I have already posted my information in a handful of forums and youtube channels with industry "leaders" but no one seems to care enough to do anything with this information. If those individuals who have spent decades keeping AVR companies like Denon informed about customer issues don't care enough to do anything about it, I'm going to assume that this industry is somehow flawed at its core.

I bought an AVR and speakers just to have a nice home theater experience watching movies with my friends and family. I never imagined I would have to do this kind of research on supply chain issues (the AKM fire last October),etc to ensure I am getting the value I expect after spending thousands of dollars on an AVR. I am done my friend. I've done my part as a neophyte to this AVR world. I've informed the people I have followed online. It is now up to them to do what they want with this information.

Don't believe any of those until we can see the evidence.

As it is now, just look at post#163 and 164, those are in writing from D and M, plus your verbal one from D, why should we believe any hearsay any more?

I spent hours of research myself too, even posted the new DAC board shown on the Denon.jp site and clearly it did not show 7 x PCM5102A. You can see it for yourself. Resolution of that photo is not great but you can see enough.

So afaic, the D+M reps probably got their info from datasheets that have not been updated (as you alluded to yourself).

The Marantz response, not your verbal one, seems more credible because he/she seemed to have checked with engineering (posr#164). If that is the case, then we are not going to find out easily. Someone will have too pop the case and dig deep.

Good thing I don't need an avr or avp, yet. If I did, I would have contacted D+M Japan directly.

 

[peng]

There seem to be enough of us in this same wagon that a collective effort to cover to and from shipping to Amir should be feasible.

Working it in to his queue for testing might be another matter, however.

If someone would send one to Amir for test and tear down, I am willing to contribute to the shipping cost.

 

[beren777]

If something would send one to Amir for test and tear down, I am willing to contribute to the shipping cost.

I'll also contribute money towards shipping.

 

[krabapple]

I posted this reply to another person so here it is again (I didn't want to re-type a similar answer - lol).

This whole issue is convoluted. I'm just 2 weeks new to this whole AVR world. I literally just purchased my first set of speakers and AVR last week. As you can imagine, I've never done more research on a product in my life. I even had to go to Japanese websites using my VPN to read translated responses from Denon to Japanese customers informing them that the post-May 2021 x-series Denons had different DACs (and another different component which I didn't bother to read about). I have spent over 40 hours this past week researching Denons practices, supply chains, CEO speeches/comments. Again, I'm only 2 weeks new to this world. I've had to learn a whole new language. But, for someone new to this world, it is clear that Denon has not been transparent about the changes they have made their x-series ARVs. Usually when companies change manufacturers (like Apple using LG and Samsung Oled screens but not telling us which serial numbers have which manufacturer) it's not a big deal because it doesn't significantly change the experience of the product. But Denon changing a DAC to a lower quality DAC (and charging us $300-$500 more for these post-May units) is as significant as Apple changing their A-series processors to a Qualcomm Snapdragon processor and not telling its customers about the changes in efficiency, power, etc. Since I am new to all of this I am not going to get involved (sorry to say). I have already posted my information in a handful of forums and youtube channels with industry "leaders" but no one seems to care enough to do anything with this information. If those individuals who have spent decades keeping AVR companies like Denon informed about customer issues don't care enough to do anything about it, I'm going to assume that this industry is somehow flawed at its core.

I bought an AVR and speakers just to have a nice home theater experience watching movies with my friends and family. I never imagined I would have to do this kind of research on supply chain issues (the AKM fire last October),etc to ensure I am getting the value I expect after spending thousands of dollars on an AVR. I am done my friend. I've done my part as a neophyte to this AVR world. I've informed the people I have followed online. It is now up to them to do what they want with this information.

Ask yourself: is it going to make an audible difference? How do you know that "Denon changing a DAC to a lower quality DAC... is as significant as Apple changing their A-series processors to a Qualcomm Snapdragon processor and not telling its customers about the changes in efficiency, power, etc. "

You may be going to a lot of trouble for nothing.

 

[Oski1997]

Ask yourself: is it going to make an audible difference? How do you know that "Denon changing a DAC to a lower quality DAC... is as significant as Apple changing their A-series processors to a Qualcomm Snapdragon processor and not telling its customers about the changes in efficiency, power, etc. "

You may be going to a lot of trouble for nothing.

It's also just the principle of Denon charging an extra $300-$500 for the post-May units and then using a Texas Instruments (PCM-variant) DAC that no major competitor (i.e. NAD, Emotiva, Trinnov, Arkam, etc.) uses in their mid-high tier units. I would've been ok with buying the Denon with this new PCM DAC if Denon would've kept the prices the same. I know the AKM fire last October has affected this industry. I would've done my part to support them (at the old price). But don't charge me an extra $300-$500 and then put a lower specd DAC (on paper) in my Denon. That's just asking for too much.

I agree, I just ordered a new Marantz to ensure I'd be getting an updated HDMI 2.1 chip and an AKM chip. Peace of mind is more important than the extra cost of a Marantz over a Denon. It's due to arrive on Saturday. I can't wait!!

 

[peng]

It's also just the principle of Denon charging an extra $300-$500 for the post-May units and then using a Texas Instruments (PCM-variant) DAC that no major competitor (i.e. NAD, Emotiva, Trinnov, Arkam, etc.) uses in their mid-high tier units. I would've been ok with buying the Denon with this new PCM DAC if Denon would've kept the prices the same. I know the AKM fire last October has affected this industry. I would've done my part to support them (at the old price). But don't charge me an extra $300-$500 and then put a lower specd DAC (on paper) in my Denon. That's just asking for too much.

I agree, I just ordered a new Marantz to ensure I'd be getting an updated HDMI 2.1 chip and an AKM chip. Peace of mind is more important than the extra cost of a Marantz over a Denon. It's due to arrive on Saturday. I can't wait!!

I also think it is a matter of principle, but I have to agree with krapple that you really don't know if Denon is replacing the AK4458 with a lower quality one, nor do you know that Marantz is keeping the AK4458 for their AVRs.

I don't know why you seem to only trust the Marantz rep who you spoke to on the phone and not the one who responded to @alik1006 in writing and who actually contacted their engineers for an answer. I bet if you ask that same rep you spoke to on the phone about the AV8805A, he would tell you it has the AK4490 too because that's what the information sheet says.

As I mentioned before, the only sure thing we know so far is that Marantz did replace the AK4490 with the ES9010K2M, at least on the one unit torn down by someone (thanks to him) who posted the following YT video previous linked by others on ASR.

Again, the video is about the AK8805A, not the Marantz AVR you may be getting, but the point is, if Marantz substituted the AKM chip for the flag ship AV8805A, how do you know they would not, or have not done it already, for their AVRs too?

If you want to save time you can start at the 26 minute point:

I am not trying to contradict what you are saying at all, but knowing that your goal is to get the AK4458, I just want you to be aware that the information you got from that phone call may not be reliable. If anything it is not logical, as it would make not make sense for Denon, and Marantz, in the case of the AV8805A to switch away from AKM because of the shortage, yet keep the same chip for the SR6015, SR7015, SR8015 models.

By the way, just to check availability of the chip right now, you can go to Digi-Key, search for the AK4458 and you will get the following message:

AK4458VN Asahi Kasei Microdevices/AKM | Integrated Circuits (ICs) | DigiKey

Order today, ships today. AK4458VN – DAC, Audio 32 b 768k DSD, I²S 48-QFN (7x7) from Asahi Kasei Microdevices/AKM. Pricing and Availability on millions of electronic components from Digi-Key Electronics.

www.digikey.com

0 In Stock
Due to temporary constrained supply, Digi-Key is unable to accept backorders at this time.

The thing is, if you jump in right now based on what you heard from one person, you may not be happy if later on someone does a tear down and found the DAC in your Marantz unit is not the AK4458, though hopefully it would be one that has comparable performance specs. Another thing to keep in mind, even the Marantz models with the AK4458 measured with SINAD at least 20 dB lower than that of the Denon models, unless you are getting the SR8015, that did measure just as good.

Anyway I have tried my best, so best of luck..

 

[beren777]

The only way to settle this is for someone to send in their Denon for "examination."

 

[Oski1997]

I also think it is a matter of principle, but I have to agree with krapple that you really don't know if Denon is replacing the AK4458 with a lower quality one, nor do you know that Marantz is keeping the AK4458 for their AVRs.

I don't know why you seem to only trust the Marantz rep who you spoke to on the phone and not the one who responded to @alik1006 in writing and who actually contacted their engineers for an answer. I bet if you ask that same rep you spoke to on the phone about the AV8805A, he would tell you it has the AK4490 too because that's what the information sheet says.

As I mentioned before, the only sure thing we know so far is that Marantz did replace the AK4490 with the ES9010K2M, at least on the one unit torn down by someone (thanks to him) who posted the following YT video previous linked by others on ASR.

Again, the video is about the AK8805A, not the Marantz AVR you may be getting, but the point is, if Marantz substituted the AKM chip for the flag ship AV8805A, how do you know they would not, or have not done it already, for their AVRs too?

If you want to save time you can start at the 26 minute point:

View attachment 166172View attachment 166176

I am not trying to contradict what you are saying at all, but knowing that your goal is to get the AK4458, I just want you to be aware that the information you got from that phone call may not be reliable. If anything it is not logical, as it would make not make sense for Denon, and Marantz, in the case of the AV8805A to switch away from AKM because of the shortage, yet keep the same chip for the SR6015, SR7015, SR8015 models.

By the way, just to check availability of the chip right now, you can go to Digi-Key, search for the AK4458 and you will get the following message:

AK4458VN Asahi Kasei Microdevices/AKM | Integrated Circuits (ICs) | DigiKey

Order today, ships today. AK4458VN – DAC, Audio 32 b 768k DSD, I²S 48-QFN (7x7) from Asahi Kasei Microdevices/AKM. Pricing and Availability on millions of electronic components from Digi-Key Electronics.

www.digikey.com

The thing is, if you jump in right now based on what you heard from one person, you may not be happy if later on someone does a tear down and found the DAC in your Marantz unit is not the AK4458, though hopefully it would be one that has comparable performance specs. Another thing to keep in mind, even the Marantz models with the AK4458 measured with SINAD at least 20 dB lower than that of the Denon models, unless you are getting the SR8015, that did measure just as good.

Anyway I have tried my best, so best of luck..

Thanks for your support. I thought about that too. What if Marantz units are also getting the PCM chip. All I can do is make an informed decision with the information I have today. There has been no talk about Marantz units not having an AKM DAC. Do you have any links? I have 30 days to return the Marantz unit. Thanks again.

 

[Oski1997]

I also think it is a matter of principle, but I have to agree with krapple that you really don't know if Denon is replacing the AK4458 with a lower quality one, nor do you know that Marantz is keeping the AK4458 for their AVRs.

I don't know why you seem to only trust the Marantz rep who you spoke to on the phone and not the one who responded to @alik1006 in writing and who actually contacted their engineers for an answer. I bet if you ask that same rep you spoke to on the phone about the AV8805A, he would tell you it has the AK4490 too because that's what the information sheet says.

As I mentioned before, the only sure thing we know so far is that Marantz did replace the AK4490 with the ES9010K2M, at least on the one unit torn down by someone (thanks to him) who posted the following YT video previous linked by others on ASR.

Again, the video is about the AK8805A, not the Marantz AVR you may be getting, but the point is, if Marantz substituted the AKM chip for the flag ship AV8805A, how do you know they would not, or have not done it already, for their AVRs too?

If you want to save time you can start at the 26 minute point:

View attachment 166172View attachment 166176

I am not trying to contradict what you are saying at all, but knowing that your goal is to get the AK4458, I just want you to be aware that the information you got from that phone call may not be reliable. If anything it is not logical, as it would make not make sense for Denon, and Marantz, in the case of the AV8805A to switch away from AKM because of the shortage, yet keep the same chip for the SR6015, SR7015, SR8015 models.

By the way, just to check availability of the chip right now, you can go to Digi-Key, search for the AK4458 and you will get the following message:

AK4458VN Asahi Kasei Microdevices/AKM | Integrated Circuits (ICs) | DigiKey

Order today, ships today. AK4458VN – DAC, Audio 32 b 768k DSD, I²S 48-QFN (7x7) from Asahi Kasei Microdevices/AKM. Pricing and Availability on millions of electronic components from Digi-Key Electronics.

www.digikey.com

The thing is, if you jump in right now based on what you heard from one person, you may not be happy if later on someone does a tear down and found the DAC in your Marantz unit is not the AK4458, though hopefully it would be one that has comparable performance specs. Another thing to keep in mind, even the Marantz models with the AK4458 measured with SINAD at least 20 dB lower than that of the Denon models, unless you are getting the SR8015, that did measure just as good.

Anyway I have tried my best, so best of luck..

I also think it is a matter of principle, but I have to agree with krapple that you really don't know if Denon is replacing the AK4458 with a lower quality one, nor do you know that Marantz is keeping the AK4458 for their AVRs.

I don't know why you seem to only trust the Marantz rep who you spoke to on the phone and not the one who responded to @alik1006 in writing and who actually contacted their engineers for an answer. I bet if you ask that same rep you spoke to on the phone about the AV8805A, he would tell you it has the AK4490 too because that's what the information sheet says.

As I mentioned before, the only sure thing we know so far is that Marantz did replace the AK4490 with the ES9010K2M, at least on the one unit torn down by someone (thanks to him) who posted the following YT video previous linked by others on ASR.

Again, the video is about the AK8805A, not the Marantz AVR you may be getting, but the point is, if Marantz substituted the AKM chip for the flag ship AV8805A, how do you know they would not, or have not done it already, for their AVRs too?

If you want to save time you can start at the 26 minute point:

View attachment 166172View attachment 166176

I am not trying to contradict what you are saying at all, but knowing that your goal is to get the AK4458, I just want you to be aware that the information you got from that phone call may not be reliable. If anything it is not logical, as it would make not make sense for Denon, and Marantz, in the case of the AV8805A to switch away from AKM because of the shortage, yet keep the same chip for the SR6015, SR7015, SR8015 models.

By the way, just to check availability of the chip right now, you can go to Digi-Key, search for the AK4458 and you will get the following message:

AK4458VN Asahi Kasei Microdevices/AKM | Integrated Circuits (ICs) | DigiKey

Order today, ships today. AK4458VN – DAC, Audio 32 b 768k DSD, I²S 48-QFN (7x7) from Asahi Kasei Microdevices/AKM. Pricing and Availability on millions of electronic components from Digi-Key Electronics.

www.digikey.com

The thing is, if you jump in right now based on what you heard from one person, you may not be happy if later on someone does a tear down and found the DAC in your Marantz unit is not the AK4458, though hopefully it would be one that has comparable performance specs. Another thing to keep in mind, even the Marantz models with the AK4458 measured with SINAD at least 20 dB lower than that of the Denon models, unless you are getting the SR8015, that did measure just as good.

Anyway I have tried my best, so best of luck..

I just read that you mentioned the preamp av8805a. I read that it (along with the x8500ha) has the ESS ES9010 now. They both used to have the AK4490. In the case of these two units, the ESS is comparable to the AK4490. Other major competitors (to these two models) also use the ES9010. Whereas in the case of the x3700, x4700, x6700 the PCM5102A is not a comparable DAC to the AK4458 no other competitor uses this Texas Instrument DAC. That is what's concerning. Again, until we have a teardown who knows what's really in these post-May units. But, at least for now, I have not read any rumors that Marantz changed the DACS of the units that have the AK4458.

PS - if it turns out that the Marantz did keep the AK4458, it does make sense because at it's core, Marantz needs to have that "Marantz sound". That sound requires a warm sounding DAC like the AK4458. I've read that the PCM5102 isn't able to produce the "warmer" Marantz sound. However, if it turns out that Marantz did in fact use a DAC that isn't known to produce "warm"-er sounds, then this is a grave act indeed. It will be a sad day for Marantz aficionados around the world. Again, I am just 2 weeks new to this whole AVR world. I am neither a Denon or Marantz enthusiast. I never even heard of Denon and Marantz before 2 weeks ago. But in my one week of research, it is clear that Marantz owners buy it because of the "Marantz sound". And, Denon owners seem to buy it for the purity (very low distortion) of the sound. I merely want my money's worth for this new AVR of mine =)