Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[EWL5]

A word of wisdom. Protect your ears. They are the only ones you have. It's not a coincidence that almost 50% of ASR readers suffer from Tinnitus. For eyes you have cataract surgery available to give eyes a second chance. With ears, there is only one go round. Wear ear protection at loud concerts, understand it doesn't require that much to cause hearing loss. When one ear is damaged it can make it difficult to tell the direction of sound, leaving you vulnerable to accidents. Constant ringing in the ears from Tinnitus can cause irritability and make you miserable. You may not appreciate the warning for ear protection until it's too late? Hopefully, that's not the case. You have a chance to be more careful with your precious ears. Your music collection and sound equipment are enjoyable now. Hearing impairment can easily reduce your quality of life and new studies indicate it can also lead to increased dementia risk. Protect your ears friends.

Appreciate the warning but where do you get the stat that half of ASR readers have Tinnitus?

In my line of work, hearing protection is highly recommended in the field as a spurious release of sound can approach 120 dB!

 

[EWL5]

NIH studies claim 25.3% of older Americans suffer from Tinnitus. Do a search for Tinnitus on ASR and read through the 20 pages of posts. You will get a good idea how common Tinnitus is among the ASR crowd.

It definitely sounds generational since "hearing protection" wasn't very prevalent or enforced for Boomers and older.

Is there a common high frequency cutoff for folks w/Tinnitus?

 

[Robert-Hifi]

After about five months as the owner of the Denon AVC-X4800H it sounds pretty good compared to my Onkyo TX-NR906.
In stereo the Denon is more spacious by miles, the Onkyo was flat as a pancake in stereo.
But the Onkyo was more muscular in it's low-end with more control/tightness and rhythm and that's something I miss with certain tracks.
This is with listening to music in stereo or surround without subwoofer and running the fronts full-range.

I wonder if it's the sound signature of the X4800H or Denon's sound signature in general (this is my first experience with Denon).
Is damping factor still a thing? Because the Onkyo manual mentions a damping factor of 60 (Front, 1 kHz, 8 ohms).
Online I found a damping factor of 18 for a similar Denon, but can't find the source again.

Or could a poweramp like the Hypex Nilai500DIY improve the tightness?
My front speakers are not hard to drive having 92dB sensitivity and a 6 ohm load.

 

[Robert-Hifi]

Using a Purifi or NCx500 might offer your front speakers cleaner dynamic range but fine tuning the Denon 4800 settings can offer more low-end punch. If you haven't purchased the Denon Audyssey MultEQ Editor for tablet/phone I would do so. Using this tool I would recommend turning off "Midrange Compensation" and turn on Dynamic EQ. Next, increase the sub EQ by +2 dB and see how that sounds. The Denon has many configuration options that can significantly change the sound. These tweaks made a big difference on my setup and the Audyssey MultEQ Editor provides even more options.

Right from the start I purchased the Audyssey MultEQ Editor app for my iPad and turned Midrange Compensation off and enabled Dynamic EQ right away.
Also tried various target curves and played with various settings like Audyssey Reference Level Offset, but it seems the Denon just doesn't have the same control in the low-end.
It's not a case of bass shortage, but merely the control/tightness of the bass.

 

[pogo]

Online I found a damping factor of 18 for a similar Denon

This value is the result of a recent test of the X6800H at 4 ohms, which means that not much control is to be expected here and this could also mean a poorer result for the co-optimization (DLART).

 

[2therock]

Thanks Guys, and for the hearing cautions but I am very aware of this. I am 70 years old and still enjoying home theater with ease.
Past generations of my family worked in factories mainly in the steel can and lid mfg and later aluminum.

Those men learned the hard way and passed the cautions down to me early on before I was of working age.. I did work at continental can co for 18 months but wore the protection religiously then and still now. Mowing shooting, using air tools you name it I am all over it. I cannot remember the last time I cranked as hard as described earlier but they were not often and brief. One of the man things they passed on is you do not just loose hearing but it gets replaced with ringing.

I was a teen and in my 20's at a great time for concerts and because of my family members warnings I never sat close, always my hearing a priority. I've witnessed some awesome concerts, Jimi Hendrix, Buddy Miles, Deep Purple, Cactus, Led Zeplin, The Doors, Uriah Heep, Donovan, Ten Years After, Clapton, I could go on and on. Yeah, i said ear bleeding but you know its an expression of maxing her out to how clean she can run loud.

Reading an opining on Denon Sub woofer performance lacking punch makes me ponder speaker quality. I cannot fathom a brand like Denon dropping the ball there.

 

[dlaloum]

I know that it doesn't affect the other ports? not the topic.

have problems to believe that shit decision of integrating a 100mbit card. and for some things you could do with the device that's by far to slow. Lucky me I'm using specific devices for that. you could sometime check your 20 channels pcm theory but thats completely wrong imho. the 10mbit effective is not even enough for a good tidal mqa quality, which could be streamed via internal heos I guess?
or maybe not I've learned about so many heos restrictions in the meantime... who know..

100mb is heaps for audio and easily supports 20 channels...

Perhaps you are thinking in Internet link terms - where the issue is likely to be latency rather than bandwidth...

In a local area network environment, latency won't be an issue unless something is broken.

Here are some Dante details for audio over IP:

So You're Adding Dante to your Network? | Audinate | Dante Pro AV Networking

Here is all you need to know! PDF Download Basically, what you need to know is that Dante is all IP-based, and makes use of common IT standards. Each Dante device behaves much like any other network device you would already find on your network. In order to make integration into an existing […]

www.audinate.com

Key bit is this:
So that you know what to expect, here is the kind of network traffic you will be seeing on your network with Dante devices:

• Dante uses UDP for audio distribution, both unicast and multicast.
  • Bandwidth usage is about 6 Mbps per typical unicast audio flow (containing 4 channels and 16 audio samples per channel). Flows are pre-allocated a capacity of 4 channels. The samples-per-channel can vary between 4 and 64, depending on the latency setting of the device. For multicast flows, channels-per-flow can be varied from 1 to 8 channels per flow.

Keep in mind that as you ramp up the bandwidth and get close to the limit of the standard you are using (eg: for 100m ethernet, more than 80% utilisation) - then issues such as QoS, traffic signalling overheads, etc... can become factors, and these may impact on latency .... and latency is more likely to be an issue than bandwidth.

But given 6mb can transport 4 channels, 24mb can transport 16 channels.... you would have to be pushing the limits pretty hard to have issues with a 100mbps link.

Yeah they could have spent the extra 10c ona Gb chip... but there really was no need to.

 

[dlaloum]

Can you explain which of the multiple statements in the referenced post is "wrong"?

I am also unaware of any TV currently produced that includes gig Ethernet.

And since they obviously work with all the current streaming solutions, it's clear the 10 / 100 ports ARE sufficient for current streaming demands.

Most people do not have an internet link capable of 100mbps...

Streaming works fine on links down below 10mbps... it is latency sensitive rather than bandwidth sensitive. (talking about audio - video requires more... but still not 100mbps)

 

[dlaloum]

I have never understand that desire for power. Well, I listen at about 55-60dB SPL and use like 0.01W per channel.

Typically the real need is not "pure" power, but stability and the ability to handle difficult loads (EPDR...) without having audible issues... A lot of amps misbehave into difficult loads.

Many old world tube amps are quite capable of handling very difficult speakers, even though their power output is tiny....
Quite a few current "powerhouse" amps (at least according to their dubious spec sheets) - end up sound terrible into difficult speakers - even though they in theory have heaps of power.

You need to consider the amp and speaker as a single "component" - they are highly dependent on each other!

 

[Robert-Hifi]

This value is the result of a recent test of the X6800H at 4 ohms, which means that not much control is to be expected here and this could also mean a poorer result for the co-optimization (DLART).

Ah, yes. That was from the German magazine Stereo. I assume the X4800H would measure similarly regarding the damping factor.
But is a damping factor of 18 really too low to be the issue?

 

[peng]

Ah, yes. That was from the German magazine Stereo. I assume the X4800H would measure similarly regarding the damping factor.
But is a damping factor of 18 really too low to be the issue?

No, it is low but not for 4 ohm load it isn't all that low. Adding a Hypex amp may help, Dirac Live should help more.

 

[Miker 1102]

It definitely sounds generational since "hearing protection" wasn't very prevalent or enforced for Boomers and older.

Is there a common high frequency cutoff for folks w/Tinnitus?

Alot of us grew up going to metal ans hard Rock. I never wore ear protection. I didn't think about it. I still listen at very high db level. My kids never wanted to be in the car with me. It's funny. I am 35 years older than my youngest and I can't even play hard rock in the car with him.

 

[pogo]

But is a damping factor of 18 really too low to be the issue?

My speakers don't work well on a low DF in my room, so the back EMF is an issue here and it stimulates my room modes more.

 

[peng]

Reading an opining on Denon Sub woofer performance lacking punch makes me ponder speaker quality. I cannot fathom a brand like Denon dropping the ball there.

Agreed, there are lots of overrated, even myths, perpetuated by hearsay over the years and now helped by the internet. One can google for damping factor and try to understand it's effect on "damping", but in my opinion, articles written by well know loudspeaker (or even amplifier) designers/engineers who include calculations for all to see has credibility whereas those who just throw out some terminologies don't have.

Talking about damping factor will certainly help those easily affected/biased by preconceived ideas and potentially prone (probably all humans are, to some extent) to hearing differences that would likely not heard if such bias are removed (such as in blind listening tests).

Here's one of those articles, linked in our own ASR thread:

Damping Factor: Effects On System Response

Much ballyhoo surrounds the concept of "damping factor." It's been suggested that it accounts for the alleged "dramatic differences" in sound between tube and solid state amplifiers. The claim is

www.audioholics.com

Benchmark has one too, also linked in the same thread, that one presented a more stringent approach and therefore recommend a higher DF, but its is more to achieve tighter frequency response such as +/- 0.1 dB, but it also consider for "woofer damping purposes". You can just read their conclusions:

Conclusions​

Loudspeaker driver damping can be achieved with damping factors as low as 10. Raising the damping factor above 10, has almost no impact on driver damping. This has been shown by Dick Pierce and others.

A damping factor of 10 can produce amplitude response variations exceeding 2 dB. These variations should be sufficient to create audible changes in the apparent voicing of a loudspeaker.

There is also a 6 page ASR thread on the same topic:

Audibility of Low Damping Factor? - Benchmark Myth-Busting White Paper

What is still leaving me perplexed at this stage is amplifier manufacturer's use of DF as a marketing argument. Hegel for example extolls on the virtues of DF values of 4000 in their higher-end products. They claim and users often agree that Hegel amplifiers generally "control" woofers and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[pogo]

This has been shown by Dick Pierce and others.

This topic is not trivial and good information can be found here, but it certainly does not cover everything:

'High Performance Audio Power Amplifiers' by Ben Duncan
7.4.3 Damping factor & 2.3.2 What speakers are looking for

 

[popej]

Typically the real need is not "pure" power, but stability and the ability to handle difficult loads (EPDR...) without having audible issues... A lot of amps misbehave into difficult loads.

IMHO this kind of theorizing is useless without providing any estimation of the actual audibility of the problem. Kind of like considering how many N copper wire should have.

I know only one real tests. It was done by Arny Krueger on his PCABX site:

PC ABX - The PCABX Amplifier Listening Room

Would be interesting if anyone could provide results of similar ABX testing.

 

[peng]

Typically the real need is not "pure" power, but stability and the ability to handle difficult loads (EPDR...) without having audible issues... A lot of amps misbehave into difficult loads.

Many old world tube amps are quite capable of handling very difficult speakers, even though their power output is tiny....
Quite a few current "powerhouse" amps (at least according to their dubious spec sheets) - end up sound terrible into difficult speakers - even though they in theory have heaps of power.

You need to consider the amp and speaker as a single "component" - they are highly dependent on each other!

True, but that doesn't apply to someone like popej who apparently only needs 0.01 W average, 1 to 10 W peak.

 

[dlaloum]

IMHO this kind of theorizing is useless without providing any estimation of the actual audibility of the problem. Kind of like considering how many N copper wire should have.

I know only one real tests. It was done by Arny Krueger on his PCABX site:

PC ABX - The PCABX Amplifier Listening Room

Would be interesting if anyone could provide results of similar ABX testing.

My testing was purely subjective (as I do not have the requisite tools) - but there was a noticeable difference between the Onkyo SR876 / Integra DTR 70.4 / Crown XLS2500 / Quad 606 (which all sounded the same, or sufficiently close that I doubt I could differentiate between them in a blind test) - and the Integra DTR 3.4.

All the amps in the former category, are high power and high current designs - the last one (odd man out) - has reasonable "power" according to its spec sheet.... but (and here I am guessing) appears to be unable to handle the speakers properly. It also has a much smaller power supply, and my guess is that current may be the issue into the 3 ohm woofer crossover and 1.6ohm tweeter my speakers have... or alternatively the amp topology may have issues with the capacitive load of the tweeter...

 

[Robert-Hifi]

My experiment to use my old Onkyo TX-NR0906 as a poweramp for the Denon AVC-X4800H has failed.
I wanted to see if it would bring back the muscular low-end from the Onkyo, but I couldn't get it to output sound.
Only connected the front L/R to the Onkyo and assigned the multichannel input to the proper input (DVD) and switched the audio selector to multichannel input for the DVD input, also tried it for the Game/TV input.
On the Denon I set the front L/R to pre-out only, but got no sound whatsoever.
Tried to switch to the surround L/R as pre-out on the Denon, but that resulted in volume fluctuations in the center channel (probably due to the two volume controle fighting each other).

So, I disconnected the Onkyo and put it in storage again.
I hope it didn't damage the Denon in any way.

 

[Joost80]

My experiment to use my old Onkyo TX-NR0906 as a poweramp for the Denon AVC-X4800H has failed.
I wanted to see if it would bring back the muscular low-end from the Onkyo, but I couldn't get it to output sound.
Only connected the front L/R to the Onkyo and assigned the multichannel input to the proper input (DVD) and switched the audio selector to multichannel input for the DVD input, also tried it for the Game/TV input.
On the Denon I set the front L/R to pre-out only, but got no sound whatsoever.
Tried to switch to the surround L/R as pre-out on the Denon, but that resulted in volume fluctuations in the center channel (probably due to the two volume controle fighting each other).

So, I disconnected the Onkyo and put it in storage again.
I hope it didn't damage the Denon in any way.

Maybe it sounds 'less muscular' because its better integrated in the sound field? My favorite test scene when I show people the setup is Ready Player One opening race scene. I have a PC12 Plus and if the bass would be more muscular, cracks will appear in the concrete. I have owned the NR906 as well years back. Great machine.