Denon AVR-X4800H AVR Review

[popej]

the problem is you don't get 100mbit with a 100mbit card. usually a 10th of it, maybe 12 mbit

Maybe you mean you get 10-12MB/s on 100Mbit card.

 

[supermood]

always bit not byte. I mean what I wrote

 

[D8hS]

always bit not byte. I mean what I wrote

Well what you wrote doesn't make any sense. Why would you get a tenth of the advertised speed? You sound confused

 

[popej]

that's 3 eur more per device with their prices best guess...

Ethernet interface is probably a part of microcontroller, kind of freebie. Upgrading to gigabit could mean some major redesign.

 

[ofc]

Ethernet interface is probably a part of microcontroller, kind of freebie. Upgrading to gigabit could mean some major redesign.

This. And with Gigabit we might end up with more HF noise as well... And it uses (slightly) more power than Fast Ethernet. So why even bother if there is no benefit and only potentially negative impact?

In TV sets this is a different story as video streaming may actually require higher bandwidths, but in an AVR we are talking about audio only.

 

[McRobert]

puhh bad... but thanks! they are hiding that info very good. not a word in the manual or spec sheets or every site I found..

I have a oled 4 or 5 years old with 1gig. and needed with dv movies without the receiver / external streaming device. sometimes 80mbit/s load...

I believe you are confused about this. I don't think there are any televisions with 1G ports, only 100M. There is no need for 1G ports because 100M is enough for streaming. If you have proof of some tv that has 1G port, please post the specs link.

Uhd bluray remux bitrate is about 50-100Mbps, so you can use a 100M port for that too. I have done it many times with a 100M router and apple tv 4k.

So why would you need 1G port for avr? You won't stream uhd blurays through avr ethernet anyway. You stream with external streamer and connect it to your avr via HDMI.

Can you elaborate, how would the 1G port benefit you in practice?

 

[ban25]

I believe you are confused about this. I don't think there are any televisions with 1G ports, only 100M. There is no need for 1G ports because 100M is enough for streaming. If you have proof of some tv that has 1G port, please post the specs link.

Uhd bluray remux bitrate is about 50-100Mbps, so you can use a 100M port for that too. I have done it many times with a 100M router and apple tv 4k.

So why would you need 1G port for avr? You won't stream uhd blurays through avr ethernet anyway. You stream with external streamer and connect it to your avr via HDMI.

Can you elaborate, how would the 1G port benefit you in practice?

Wrong.

 

[jhwalker]

Wrong.

Can you explain which of the multiple statements in the referenced post is "wrong"?

I am also unaware of any TV currently produced that includes gig Ethernet.

And since they obviously work with all the current streaming solutions, it's clear the 10 / 100 ports ARE sufficient for current streaming demands.

 

[2therock]

Hello, I am interested in this receiver in a stand alone setup streaming TV and music playback in a variety of ways from stereo to across my 7.1 setup.

Cutting through the chase my questions are about the unit heat and performance without external amplifiers? Will it be good to rock My 4 ohm & 6 ohm Speakers? I don't continuously blast but will turn up the fun parts and rewind to catch them again with more volume.
The page has not been updated in years but the speakers and SC-75 pioneer are still here and I run a LG OLED C3 55. Need to update the tech over the SC-75.
I see folks adding fan units and ponder how long it takes for them to need to be opened and dusted.

Thanks

 

[peng]

Hello, I am interested in this receiver in a stand alone setup streaming TV and music playback in a variety of ways from stereo to across my 7.1 setup.

Cutting through the chase my questions are about the unit heat and performance without external amplifiers? Will it be good to rock My 4 ohm & 6 ohm Speakers? I don't continuously blast but will turn up the fun parts and rewind to catch them again with more volume.

This sort of questions keep popping up, it is a good example of the effects of exaggerated talks from print magazines and of course the internet in recent years.
The fact is, impedance is just one factor, to answer your question you have to consider at least the following:

- Distance, speaker sensitivity,
- Impedance curve, 4 ohm, 6 ohm etc., are just single values on the frequency axis, it is better to obtain the impedance vs frequency curve.
- Phase angle, to address your concern about heat dissipation in your receiver, or even external power amp, phase angle vs frequency could also be a factor.
- Most importantly, how "loud" you listen is an important factor.

Numerical examples in support of he above:

- The sound pressure level at your listening position is related to distance, example: a speaker that produces 90 dB at 1 meter, will produce 84 dB at 2 meters, 78 dB at 4 meters.
- A speaker that has impedance averaging 6 ohms in the range 20-200 Hz may be more "difficult to drive" than a speaker that has a couple of 3 to 4 ohms dip in the 20-60 Hz but above 8 ohms everywhere else on the frequency axis.
- An so called 8 ohm nominal speaker that has nominal impedance >35 degrees, or much higher in the 20-300 Hz (just an example) could cause the amplifiers/receivers to heat up more than 4 ohm nominal speaker that has phase angle below 20 degrees in the same frequency range.
- To perceive (probably not all but most people) twice as loud, you may need about 6 to 10 dB more "power", that means if you enjoy listening at say 80 dB average level, with peaks to 100 dB, you will need 10 times more power than someone who enjoys 70 dB average, 90 dB peak. That also means 4 ohms speakers may not be a concern for someone who sits say only 3 meters from their speakers and they enjoy 70 dB average, and could not even tolerate 80 dB average for any more than a few second, but it could be a real concern for someone who frequently listen to 80 dB average on material that have 100 dB peak or higher.

You can ignore all of the above if you just size your receiver or amp to allow for the worse case, for example, if the speaker spec says recommended 20-100 W, you get them an amp, or receiver conservatively rated 120 W to 150 W 8 ohms, or external amps rated 200 W/300 W 8/4 ohms (better, obviously).

My point in my long post is simply that it is not a Yes/No answer to your simple question.

 

[2therock]

Thank You,
So my speaker specs link shown in my OP are no help in determining if an external amp would be required?
I humbly reveal my low level technical or audiophile experience.
The mains being 4 ohm and "Recommended amp power" 10 to 250 watts is not an indicator?
I guess I'll have to wing it going by the joy over the years from past experience with these speakers across these two AVR's.
Seems every decade I advance AVR tech.

On both of these AVR's I could play content so loud and clear one could not realize how loud it was until trying to speak to another person in the room.

From first a 2002 Onkyo TX-SR800, (Days of No HDMI Connectivity)
AMPLIFIER SECTION
Continuous average power output (FTC)
All channels: 100 W per channel min. RMS at 8
Ω, 2 channels driven from 20 Hz to
20 kHz with no more than 0.08%
total harmonic distortion.
130 W min. RMS at 6 Ω, 2 channels
driven from 1 kHz with no more
than 0.1% total harmonic
distortion.
Continuous power output (DIN) 135 W at 6 Ω
Maximum power output (EIAJ) 160 W at 6 Ω
Dynamic power output (stereo) 2 × 250 W at 3 Ω
2 × 210 W at 4 Ω
2 × 130 W at 8 Ω

Then the 2013 Pioneer SC-75
Amplifier section
Continuous average power output*
8 W .............................................................................................................................................135 W** per channel
6 W ...........................................................................................................................................175 W*** per channel
* Measured pursuant to the Federal Trade Commission’s Trade Regulation rule on Power Output Claims for
Amplifiers
** 1 kHz with no more than 0.08 %**** total harmonic distortion
*** 1 kHz with no more than 1 %**** total harmonic distortion
**** Measured by Audio Spectrum Analyzer
Multi channel simultaneous power output (1 kHz, 1 %, 8 W)
9 ch total .............................................................................................................................................................760 W
Continuous Power Output (1 kHz, 8 W, 0.08 %)
Front ................................................................................................................................................... 135 W + 135 W
Center .................................................................................................................................................................135 W
Surround ............................................................................................................................................ 135 W + 135 W
Surround back ................................................................................................................................... 135 W + 135 W
Continuous Power Output (1 kHz, 6 W, 1.0 %)
Front ................................................................................................................................................... 175 W + 175 W
Center .................................................................................................................................................................175 W
Surround ............................................................................................................................................ 175 W + 175 W
Surround back ................................................................................................................................... 175 W + 175 W
Front height/Front wide ..................................................................................................................... 175 W + 175 W
Continuous Power Output (1 kHz, 4 W, 1.0 %)
Front ................................................................................................................................................... 220 W + 220 W
Center .................................................................................................................................................................220 W
Surround ............................................................................................................................................ 220 W + 220 W
Surround back ................................................................................................................................... 220 W + 220 W
Front height/Front wide ..................................................................................................................... 220 W + 220 W
Total harmonic distortion ........................................................................................ 0.04 % (1 kHz, 110 W + 110 W, 8 W)
Guaranteed speaker impedance ..................................................................................................................... 4 W to 16 W

 

[peng]

Thank You,
So my speaker specs link shown in my OP are no help in determining if an external amp would be required?

Yes it is helpful, just not enough to determine if an external amp would be required.

I humbly reveal my low level technical or audiophile experience.
The mains being 4 ohm and "Recommended amp power" 10 to 250 watts is not an indicator?

Yes it is an indicator, and I addressed that in my response:

You can ignore all of the above if you just size your receiver or amp to allow for the worse case, for example, if the speaker spec says recommended 20-100 W, you get them an amp, or receiver conservatively rated 120 W to 150 W 8 ohms, or external amps rated 200 W/300 W 8/4 ohms (better, obviously).

I used the example 20-100 W speaker, you can substitute it using your 10-250 W, the answer is the same, in my response I used a 200 W/300 W 8/4 ohms, and then you can ignore the rest of my long post.

If you, for whatever reason, want to use a less capable external amp, or just use your Pioneer AVR, then it will be helpful if you read the rest of my long post.

I guess I'll have to wing it going by the joy over the years from past experience with these speakers across these two AVR's.
Seems every decade I advance AVR tech.

On both of these AVR's I could play content so loud and clear one could not realize how loud it was until trying to speak to another person in the room.

Again, I cover that in my response, it depends on your distance to speakers, speaker sensitivity specs, impedance/phase angle specs, and your desired SPL.

From first a 2002 Onkyo TX-SR800, (Days of No HDMI Connectivity)
AMPLIFIER SECTION
Continuous average power output (FTC)
All channels: 100 W per channel min. RMS at 8
Ω, 2 channels driven from 20 Hz to
20 kHz with no more than 0.08%
total harmonic distortion.
130 W min. RMS at 6 Ω, 2 channels
driven from 1 kHz with no more
than 0.1% total harmonic
distortion.
Continuous power output (DIN) 135 W at 6 Ω
Maximum power output (EIAJ) 160 W at 6 Ω
Dynamic power output (stereo) 2 × 250 W at 3 Ω
2 × 210 W at 4 Ω
2 × 130 W at 8 Ω

Then the 2013 Pioneer SC-75
Amplifier section
Continuous average power output*
8 W .............................................................................................................................................135 W** per channel
6 W ...........................................................................................................................................175 W*** per channel
* Measured pursuant to the Federal Trade Commission’s Trade Regulation rule on Power Output Claims for
Amplifiers
** 1 kHz with no more than 0.08 %**** total harmonic distortion
*** 1 kHz with no more than 1 %**** total harmonic distortion
**** Measured by Audio Spectrum Analyzer
Multi channel simultaneous power output (1 kHz, 1 %, 8 W)
9 ch total .............................................................................................................................................................760 W
Continuous Power Output (1 kHz, 8 W, 0.08 %)
Front ................................................................................................................................................... 135 W + 135 W
Center .................................................................................................................................................................135 W
Surround ............................................................................................................................................ 135 W + 135 W
Surround back ................................................................................................................................... 135 W + 135 W
Continuous Power Output (1 kHz, 6 W, 1.0 %)
Front ................................................................................................................................................... 175 W + 175 W
Center .................................................................................................................................................................175 W
Surround ............................................................................................................................................ 175 W + 175 W
Surround back ................................................................................................................................... 175 W + 175 W
Front height/Front wide ..................................................................................................................... 175 W + 175 W
Continuous Power Output (1 kHz, 4 W, 1.0 %)
Front ................................................................................................................................................... 220 W + 220 W
Center .................................................................................................................................................................220 W
Surround ............................................................................................................................................ 220 W + 220 W
Surround back ................................................................................................................................... 220 W + 220 W
Front height/Front wide ..................................................................................................................... 220 W + 220 W
Total harmonic distortion ........................................................................................ 0.04 % (1 kHz, 110 W + 110 W, 8 W)
Guaranteed speaker impedance ..................................................................................................................... 4 W to 16 W

Those two AVRs are quite powerful indeed but without knowing the impedance and phase angle characteristics (curves), and your desired SPL, we cannot answer your question, that is " determining if an external amp would be required". However, if you have had no trouble using those AVRs to listen so much louder than you could tolerate, then my previous response about "ignore the rest of my post" will apply for sure. Except for the heat concern, but on that you could easily find out for yourself.

So given the additional information that is "I could play content so loud and clear one could not realize how loud it was until trying to speak to another person in the room." I wonder why you seem concern in the first place? Based on that, you don't need an external amp, but should check and make sure the AVRs don't run too warm when you listen loud for long duration, even if it does, you can use an external fan as well instead of relying on the internal fans (if they have them...).

 

[popej]

Most importantly, how "loud" you listen is an important factor.

I have never understand that desire for power. Well, I listen at about 55-60dB SPL and use like 0.01W per channel.

 

[peng]

I have never understand that desire for power. Well, I listen at about 55-60dB SPL and use like 0.01W per channel.

People like us would not have to worry about 4 ohm speakers with dips to maybe 2 ohms. That's why listening habit is factor, and blanket statements are not always helpful.

 

[pogo]

This thread will certainly be very interesting. There is a complete lack of understanding of EPDR, etc.: Link

 

[2therock]

Thanks guys, All very helpful. I already knew I was weak in the tech savvy but not how bad. My bet is the X4800H will be fine.

I'm shopping Denon because Pioneer and Onkyo are plagued with HDMI dropping outs or failures in general, I was warned but..... I have a VSX-LX505 in a box going back to Adorama with no designated replacement. It ran perfect for 32 days and after explaining the issues and the trouble shooting I did they gave me the 2 days and a shipping label. And I didn't learn of the power being limited when its pushed (exposed by amirm) on this until after the purchase.

Thanks

 

[peng]

Thanks guys, All very helpful. I already knew I was weak in the tech savvy but not how bad. My bet is the X4800H will be fine.

I'm shopping Denon because Pioneer and Onkyo are plagued with HDMI dropping outs or failures in general, I was warned but..... I have a VSX-LX505 in a box going back to Adorama with no designated replacement. It ran perfect for 32 days and after explaining the issues and the trouble shooting I did they gave me the 2 days and a shipping label. And I didn't learn of the power being limited when its pushed (exposed by amirm) on this until after the purchase.

Thanks

Based on the measurements of the Cinema 40, your are likely correct that the X4800H will be fine for you, the Cinema 40 did good in the reactive load test as well. I do recommend using an ext. fan just for peace of mind, and keep in mind that AVRs are not really great with 4 ohm nominal speakers, especially those that dips below well below 3 ohms at multiple points, and/or have nasty phase angles. Your speakers have good sensitivity, that helps.

How far do you sit?

 

[2therock]

Thank You, the speakers are great. Many years ago i read a magazine review on them where they even examined the internal components and were impressed at how they could meet the price point using similar builds as the likes of AXIOM and others.
It was not long after one of the big AV companies bought them out and folded the brand. It was a good year for me, the US to CAD was in my favor. I got them from Audio Shop Ottawa CA still in business last I looked.

 

[2therock]

How far do you sit?

13 feet from mains with sub behind the stand @14.5feet.

My room is not ideal or the satellites positions, but we enjoy what we have been running.

As for the ear bleeding volume I spoke of those are rare short burst demos. The first time I did it a buddy was visiting asked if I had maxed it yet, not yet, and he said lets put her to the question.
I forgot the song, it was with Onkyo mentioned above. It may have sourced via my Onkyo DV-SP800 DVD Player or my OPPO BDP-93.
But I ramped it up gradually and I looked at him to say in a mildly raised voice "Damn!" and could not hear myself. I cut it back and he said the same, and couldn't getover how clean it was.

 

[peng]

13 feet from mains with sub behind the stand @14.5feet.

My room is not ideal or the satellites positions, but we enjoy what we have been running.

As for the ear bleeding volume I spoke of those are rare short burst demos. The first time I did it a buddy was visiting asked if I had maxed it yet, not yet, and he said lets put her to the question.
I forgot the song, it was with Onkyo mentioned above. It may have sourced via my Onkyo DV-SP800 DVD Player or my OPPO BDP-93.
But I ramped it up gradually and I looked at him to say in a mildly raised voice "Damn!" and could not hear myself. I cut it back and he said the same, and couldn't getover how clean it was.

Thank you, I asked for the distance as I am curious to do a guessimate on whether you might still benefit from a 200/300 W power amp for your 4 ohm speakers. At 14.5 ft, spl calculated for your speaker driven with 140 W is about 99.5 dB based on 1 speaker, and no room gain. Assumed sensitivity of the speaker is 94 dB/2.83V/m, your link does not say if the 94 dB was based on 2.83V or 1 W, so I pick 2.83 V just to be on the conservative side.

You will get some room gain, but it mainly affects the bass to mid bass so I wouldn't want to include it without taking measurements first.
Still that's when 1 speaker is making sound so in reality of course you will get ear bleeding volume if you crank it up.

The potential benefit with still going with a powerful external amp is that a) more headroom for unusually high occasional peaks, b) minimize or even eliminate the chance of any clipping moments, c) allow the amp to run cooler, d) potentially better bass response, such as stronger, tighter, and more relax midrange/highs.

c) above could be actually happening without being notice unless you take measurements or do some AB comparison listening with vs without a powerful ext. amp. As often mentioned on forums, the saying that people don't realize how little "power" they need, and people don't realize how often clipping occur can both be true.

Not long ago, I compared too small amps, one is the Fosi class D mini smp and the other a 50 W NAD integrated, using REW sweeps, I could see no easily visible difference but as soon as I cranked the volume up high enough, there were still no difference visible in the mids and highs but the Fosi amp lost quite a few dB in the bass range. I would post it if I could find the graph but I guess I didn't save it.

Loud does not mean the speakers can't "sound better", they potentially could, under certain load conditions though it is true that under most conditions people only need a few watts average, and/or 20 to 50 watts for most peaks in the contents listened to.