Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[Vacceo]

I see a lot of comments, (not yours in particular) expecting ONE unit to do everything, have 7-9 amplifiers, look good, not cost a lot, have every feature and surround sound type, have great performance in every way, and think this will be an actual product that makes a profit..............

Then I see DACs that offer 2 channels and do nothing else, but get praised when they have a great SINAD and cost $1,000....!!

The cost to actually make a profitable AVR that will satisfy EVERY wish would be many thousands, not $1,500.........

This is a bit similar to bashing a minivan for not have great autocross skills.

When we get measurements of AVP's (Marantz Cinema 10), I Hope they provide better performance. Because in those cases, the price is quite high and the amps cannot be blamed.

In the past, AVP's compared poorly to AVR's far cheaper and more flexible, so we'll see with this generation.

 

[thorn]

I bought a 3800 a couple of weeks ago to replace a 6 year old Yamaha, one of the digital inputs stopped working. The 3800 sounds good to me the and I assume the EQ has a lot to do with it. The Yamaha didn't have a way to adjust EQ. I mostly use it for movies and over the weekend (when the family was out of the house ) I cranked it up and put on Lord of the Rings with Dolby Atmos. I could not hear any distortion, at least it sounds good to me. I have an older sub and plan on building 2 subs this winter.

It is disappointing that they used an inferior DAC. Hopefully they didn't skimp on other components.

I wonder if Denon builds their own PCBs or out sources them?

I would think that these receivers are planned out a year or more. They would have to plan way ahead to source components etc.

I guess it would be difficult to de-solder the TI DACs and replace them with AKMs after warranty. They are probably surface mounted anyway use different packages.

 

[GaryH]

Great rebuttal…

 

[PeteL]

That is really the question. How long is the development pipeline for these products? If long enough, they were probably stuck and could only use these chips. It may be like steering a massive oil tanker. Look at just how long they take to implement Dirac Live? About a year to integrate something that is basically of the shelve (yes, yes, there is some porting involved for sure, but not a year's worth).

Even "Off the shelves" or available ICs will have lead time of 6+ months, even more with the freight problems. Of course if you really need fast, You will get them, but you'll pay more for them that's just as simple has that. They secure inventory way way in advance and don't buy from Digikey!. Now I don't know when it launched, but it's not only about Dev. The Pre productions samples had to be ready many months before launched, evaluated, tested, maybe back to the drawing board for little stuff. The actual production starts slow and get's more optimised as months go. At launch, the development has already finished many months ago and the factories are running at full steam. Basically, you have to be ready way way before launch. So yes If one year before launch you still don't know what chip you'll use you're dead.

 

[voodooless]

Even "Off the shelves" or available ICs will have lead time of 6+ months, even more with the freight problems.Of course if you really need fast, You will get them, but you'll pay more for them that's just as simple has that. They secure inventory way way in advance and don't buy from Digikey!. Now I don't know when it launched, but it's not only about Dev. The Pre productions samples had to be ready many months before launched, evaluated, tested, maybe back to the drawing board for little stuff. The actual production starts slow and get's more optimised as months go. At launch, the development has already finished many months ago and the factories are running at full steam. Basically, you have to be ready way way before launch. So yes If one year before launch you still don't know what chip you'll use you're dead.

With off-the-shelve, I was referring to the software/firmware of Dirac live, not any hardware parts.

 

[prakasse]

Was waiting for 3800 to pass the results. Now that it failed what is the best alternative now ?. This is where @Amir and forum members can help folks like us waiting to upgrade our 10 year gear ( I use Yamaha rxv663).

 

[Karls_speaker_works]

Was waiting for 3800 to pass the results. Now that it failed what is the best alternative now ?. This is where @Amir and forum members can help folks like us waiting to upgrade our 10 year gear ( I use Yamaha rxv663).

This is exactly the problem here. People see this testing as pass/fail instead of realizing that these units fall on a spectrum, and AVRs in general won't necessarily excel in the DAC department, which in my opinion is over-weighted in these reviews of an extremely complex integrated product. Out of 57 AVRs tested, only 13 got a "pass" (recommendation) by Amir. Three of those were Denon products that now use this same DAC as the X3800H, but were not retested and would very likely show similar performance to the X3800H now, which would leave 10 of 57 (18%) recommended. I would suggest that people not use these results as a pass/fail bible. That's not how they should be interpreted (at least in my opinion.) Perhaps that's how Amir wants them interpreted? I am not really sure, but I would hope not?

Personally I will be upgrading my 12 year old Pioneer AVR with the X3800H - it's everything I would have expected as a replacement and I can't wait to start playing Auro 3D and Atmos content through it!

 

[GXAlan]

@amirm, if you had to grade even further on a curve, distinguishing post pandemic products, would you recommend the Onkyo RZ 50 or the X3800H? Or are both so compromised that you would advise against both?

 

[beaRA]

Was waiting for 3800 to pass the results. Now that it failed what is the best alternative now ?. This is where @Amir and forum members can help folks like us waiting to upgrade our 10 year gear ( I use Yamaha rxv663).

The Audyssey MultEQ XT32 room correction will make a far more audible impact than the tested SINAD compared to your RX-V663. You can get this room correction in older products if you are willing to go used. You have to decide if you care about the features added to the X3*00 this generation: multiple HDMI 2.1 ports, 4 independent sub outs, Auro-3D. There is also future Dirac upgradeability, but the X3900H is likely to be released before DLBC is ready to go.

The best competitor to the X3800H available new is the Onkyo TX-RZ50 which has a bit better DAC section, but a worse amplifier section. You do get Dirac full range included, but there is no definitive comparison suggesting it would be preferred over Audyssey XT32. The real differentiator in DLBC will never be supported on the TX-RZ50 which only has 1 independent sub out.

 

[prakasse]

@beaRA, @amirm . I want to start enjoying Atmos which is not possible with current receiver (rx663). I don't intend to use more than one subwoofer. All I need is a good avr which I can treat as preprocessor. My 663 has multichannel input which I can use as amplifier and also have 2 channel emotiva power amp too. In Asia market onkyo is not available.

 

[Vacceo]

This is exactly the problem here. People see this testing as pass/fail instead of realizing that these units fall on a spectrum, and AVRs in general won't necessarily excel in the DAC department, which in my opinion is over-weighted in these reviews of an extremely complex integrated product. Out of 57 AVRs tested, only 13 got a "pass" (recommendation) by Amir. Three of those were Denon products that now use this same DAC as the X3800H, but were not retested and would very likely show similar performance to the X3800H now, which would leave 10 of 57 (18%) recommended. I would suggest that people not use these results as a pass/fail bible. That's not how they should be interpreted (at least in my opinion.) Perhaps that's how Amir wants them interpreted? I am not really sure, but I would hope not?

Personally I will be upgrading my 12 year old Pioneer AVR with the X3800H - it's everything I would have expected as a replacement and I can't wait to start playing Auro 3D and Atmos content through it!

Room EQ will be a world apart. That was the biggest difference I noticed when I changed a very old Denon to a not so old (just 6 years) Marantz.

 

[peng]

Not really.
You are saying it VARIES based on each subject.
Subjective assessment verus objective assessment is one persons method of characterizing WHAT they hear.

We are in this forum talking about subjective/objective assessment.

I said what I said, not what you thought what I was saying..

 

[beaRA]

@beaRA, @amirm . I want to start enjoying Atmos which is not possible with current receiver (rx663). I don't intend to use more than one subwoofer. All I need is a good avr which I can treat as preprocessor. My 663 has multichannel input which I can use as amplifier and also have 2 channel emotiva power amp too. In Asia market onkyo is not available.

If all you are looking for in the upgrade is Atmos, try to find a used Denon X3600H. It is unlikely that the amps in your 663 are any better than any of the AVRs mentioned.

 

[beagleman]

Audibility is the standard of sound when compared to other sound like it. As the standard is qualified by hearing and in the context of home audio this can only be achieved by listening and subsequently having a subjective opinion on that sound.
An objective opinion is based on fact, while a subjective opinion is based on emotions
It is not possible to hear the quality of sound as fact because we perceive sound individually.

Uhm, not saying this makes no sense, but I have no idea what you mean...........

I have never heard of an objective "opinion"..........??

 

[Narnian]

As I noted, I ran the measurements by Denon so no bad cap this time.

Since you have a channel to them would it be possible to get Denon’s take and reasoning?

 

[beagleman]

I said what I said, not what you thought what I was saying..

You could be quite right..Cheers!

 

[NikolasA]

amirm already lowered the threshold of what he considered acceptable when measuring an AVR. When Denon swapped out the AKM DAC for a significantly lower measuring part, Denon had to know it would impact the ASR rating. I believe that's why they never sent an updated unit in to ASR after the DAC change. If we want manufacturers to keep moving forward with better measuring gear we need to vote with our dollars. Denon could have avoided this issue with another $10 in parts but instead raised the price $400 and included lower measuring parts. It's hard to understand why this happened if a company values their reputation and customers.

I want to start out with a huge Thanks to Amir for not only this awaited review but everything he does for the community with this site.

Awful results, disappointment with denon 3800 implementation blah blah blah

There are so many of us that are tired of waiting after the several year debacle of beta testers in overpriced avrs. I think I speak for a lot of us that with this implementation we all expected an easy home run and wonderful all rounder upselling us even high future hope. Aka Dirac dlbc etc at a yes elevated but worth it price….
Not sure if I am oversimplifying but the true culprit to me is obvious. It was clearly stated by the new ownership that they wanted higher margins. They don’t care about Sinad or XLR all they care is bottom line. That’s a harsh fact of business life.

We collectively through forums like this or even direct messages to the board may… big maybe… influence a decision maker. But usually it takes a flop and people not buying to maybe get an ear.
If we support half ass half ass is all we will ever get. I am back at the station waiting to get on the next wagon to AVR satisfaction. Where to now? When are we expecting in 2023 to see the new Akm veritas? Implemented and by who? Is there going to be a htp-1 2? Monoprice? Maybe I just need to wait long enough to afford a trinnov…

End of rant… sorry for my long sentences, no commas / poor English

 

[pseudoid]

1) When we get measurements of AVP's (Marantz Cinema 10), I Hope they provide better performance. Because in those cases, the price is quite high and the amps cannot be blamed.
2) In the past, AVP's compared poorly to AVR's far cheaper and more flexible, so we'll see with this generation.

1) You mean that $7000.00 monstrosity called Marantz Cinema AV 10?
2) Would you be kind enough to provide some substance to this assertion?

 

[MCORN]

Uhm, not saying this makes no sense, but I have no idea what you mean...........

I have never heard of an objective "opinion"..........??

It would seem you haven’t heard of a few things…. happy to help with the definition of audibility…. Google should be able to help with the rest

 

[ArturoKiwi]

The Audyssey MultEQ XT32 room correction will make a far more audible impact than the tested SINAD compared to your RX-V663. You can get this room correction in older products if you are willing to go used. You have to decide if you care about the features added to the X3*00 this generation: multiple HDMI 2.1 ports, 4 independent sub outs, Auro-3D. There is also future Dirac upgradeability, but the X3900H is likely to be released before DLBC is ready to go.

The best competitor to the X3800H available new is the Onkyo TX-RZ50 which has a bit better DAC section, but a worse amplifier section. You do get Dirac full range included, but there is no definitive comparison suggesting it would be preferred over Audyssey XT32. The real differentiator in DLBC will never be supported on the TX-RZ50 which only has 1 independent sub out.

The Amp section of the RZ50 isn't a problem for me, because I'm looking for a pre.
With the price of the X3800H + Dirac + DLBC I could buy a used Av8805a. That doesn't have Dirac, but it is a better pre.
Is there a real mid range, max 2000€, that worth the money?