Bluesound releases 2024 ICON streamer

[GXAlan]

Super awesome! These are probably the first measurements of the Node Icon that have been published.

Looks to be 5 dB worse than the Topping E70, so it puts the Node Icon definitely in the transparent range with all the benefits of it being a whole streamer.

It’s interesting that Dirac results in a pretty big hit. Are you enabling Dirac with a synthetic flat curve? One thing to try is a silly small window for correction, say from 10 to 15 Hz.

Bass/treble result in 6 dB of digital headroom being lost to allow for correction so it’s possible that you are losing 6 dB. The treble that high makes me think that APx555 SINAD is pretty good.

You might be losing headroom for Dirac. What happens if you do BOTH Dirac and Tone controls?

Edit: and see if you can replicate the testing that was used here to show the Alpha processing effect with the 18/20 Hz test tones along with the third tone.

Denon DCD-900NE Review (CD Player)

Hello Everyone, This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon DCD-900NE stereo player and transport. I previously reviewed the Marantz CD6007 which is in the same category. So much so that packaging is identical, as well as the remote control, as well as the user guide. All look to...

www.audiosciencereview.com

That might help us see how QRONO behaves.

 

[Rja4000]

I tried to re-measure Icon using REW beta with cross correlation feature.
Can't increase the gain as my ADC overloads on higher input.
XLR, 96k, fixed volume, tone control and Dirac are off.

View attachment 426359

Spoiler: Topping, Dirac, Tone control

Cross correlation is off. THD+N is close to one I got with Multitone Analizer.

View attachment 426358

Topping E70V to compare. CC is on.

View attachment 426360

Icon Dirac is on

View attachment 426361

Tone control bass - 0,5 dB
The same issue as you've posted before.

View attachment 426362

Treble -0,5 dB is better

View attachment 426363

Awesome !
Thanks

Unfortunately, this stupid Bass bug is also present.
Fortunately, better base performance makes it less of an issue.
It's ridiculous, nevertheless.

I will link to your post on Bluesound support page, to emphasize that the issue is also there with the Icon.
It's a poor software stuff.

 

[Kolllak]

Looks to be 5 dB worse than the Topping E70,

I believe E70v is about 119 dB. I just checked my Topping to be sure that I can get the better results with my ADC.

say from 10 to 15 Hz.

I tried with 45 Hz limit (one I actually use). It's mostly the same as with the full range Dirac.

if you do BOTH Dirac and Tone

Complete disaster is there, SNR 82 dB.

18/20 Hz test tones along with the third tone

I'm afraid the below pic. is not very useful.
192k and 18k+20k+80 Hz tones.
Blue E70v (linear fast?), red - the Icon.

 

[delamelon]

newbie question:
we can clearly see that the SNR collapses with the Dirac... but if we put a USB DAC in it, can we compensate for this drop?

 

[mikematrix]

if you do BOTH Dirac and Tone

 

[pogo]

You should also load the Mic calib file. This was probably forgotten in the video.

 

[rdytro]

Re: the huge drop-off in SINAD when using Dirac Live, is that normal for devices using it? Does it vary in severity?

 

[GXAlan]

Re: the huge drop-off in SINAD when using Dirac Live, is that normal for devices using it? Does it vary in severity?

It’s common for devices using it. SDP-55 and Storm Audio are mentioned here

Post in thread 'Pure digital AV processor?'
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/pure-digital-av-processor.9370/post-1976998

 

[pogo]

The ICON was tested by STEREO and performed better than the DMP-A10 in terms of measured values.

 

[GXAlan]

The ICON was tested by STEREO and performed better than the DMP-A10 in terms of measured values.

Do you mind sharing some photos of the measurements? It would be nice to see how it compares to the regular Node N132. They also reviewed the WiiM Pro Plus and WiiM Ultra.

 

[pogo]

Do you mind sharing some photos of the measurements?

I don't think that's allowed.

 

[Snoopy]

It’s common for devices using it. SDP-55 and Storm Audio are mentioned here

Post in thread 'Pure digital AV processor?'
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/pure-digital-av-processor.9370/post-1976998

Is it that bad with room perfect and similar software?

 

[Rja4000]

Re: the huge drop-off in SINAD when using Dirac Live, is that normal for devices using it? Does it vary in severity?

Any correction comes with some noise drawback.
Not necessarily the correction in itself (if done digitally), but rather because you first want to decrease the overall level below the maximum positive correction you plan to allow to avoid accidentally saturation.

Dirac, to be efficient, has to be quite aggressive, allowing 10dB correction or maybe more.
Therefore, the overall signal is decreased accordingly.
And, of course, dynamic range (and SINAD) follows.

There is no miracle.
Any similar system will have the same drawback.
That's probably one of the reasons why Amir is advocating for a SINAD comfortably above audibility threshold.

Here are some measurements

MiniDSP DDRC-22D DIRAC measurements

Hi After all those talks about AVR and their poor performances, I measured my MiniDSP DDRC-22D Dirac for SINAD, just to check what impact the DSP and Dirac can be in that story. The MiniDSP DDRC-22D is stereo only. Note that Dirac Stereo forces the sampling frequency to 96kHz, so that's how I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[mikematrix]

And listening to the result is still clearly better with Dirac correction than without so... for me this drop is not a problem which is still quite acceptable. We don't have an SNR of 60dB either.

 

[scotchrocks]

I just swapped out my Marantz AV7703 with the Icon, and it's been working well so far. No network or setup issues at all over wifi, HDMI ARC works reliably with our TV with an Apple TV 4K, and sound quality is great with the 2.1 setup (Genelec 8351A plus SVS SB16). I think it sounds a bit crisper than the Marantz did with no EQ/Audyssey, maybe a result of the Marantz rolloff or just placebo. But I honestly haven't had a long enough time to evaluate, and I previously ran it with Audyssey anyway. I'm excited to try it with Dirac to see if it can really improve things, as out of the box, the sub integration in my room isn't the best. Audyssey on the Marantz did a decent job with this, but it never felt completely natural. Once I try out Dirac, I'll come back with an update.

Overall, this is a very cost effective way to get a great DAC with balanced outputs, Dirac, and HDMI ARC all in one package, as long as you don't need more than 2.1. Denon/Marantz and others are probably losing out on sales by restricting balanced outputs to their most costly separates.

 

[GXAlan]

Any correction comes with some noise drawback.
Not necessarily the correction in itself (if done digitally), but rather because you first want to decrease the overall level below the maximum positive correction you plan to allow to avoid accidentally saturation.

Dirac, to be efficient, has to be quite aggressive, allowing 10dB correction or maybe more.
Therefore, the overall signal is decreased accordingly.
And, of course, dynamic range (and SINAD) follows.

There is no miracle.

+1. And all of our SINAD measurements are pretty much at 0 dBFS and real music is quieter. You can think of noise as being a fixed amount and as your signal goes down and your noise stays constant, your signal-to-noise RATIO drops.

To my knowledge, Trinnov does everything full floating point. Measurements show that you “could” use external DACs and hit 120 dB SINAD for up to 16 channels.

Someone with DANTE based AVP’s could test to see how Dirac affects SINAD.

Yamaha has 64-bit precision for YPAO, but their AVRs aren’t set up for super high SINAD in the first place since they peak out at around 1V pre out (which actually makes sense for real world use, but bad for measurements; at sub 1V levels, it actually does better than stuff like the HTP-1 and matches the AV10.

 

[pogo]

Further measurements will be published by AUDIOstereoplay on March 10.

 

[GXAlan]

@amirm has a Bluesound Node Icon too. Although he won’t have Dirac testing, it would be neat to quantify what the 6 dB of headroom required for tone controls translates into SINAD.

Is it simply the drop expected from voltage being dropped in half? Or worse?

@amirm, when you test the Node Icon, can you turn on tone controls? It automatically reduces peak output by 6 dB to give you headroom for the up to 6 dB of correction.

I guess the smart way to do this is to figure out what is being asked. If your tone control is only negative, you shouldn’t attenuate anything at all or else you get hit twice. Alternatively, if I wanted a 2.5 dB bass boost, it seems smarter to limit my max volume by 2.5 dB instead of an across the board 6 dB which is suggested by the official FAQ.

 

[Verig]

Re: the huge drop-off in SINAD when using Dirac Live, is that normal for devices using it? Does it vary in severity?

Try Dirac and you will forget 2 or 20dB of SINAD quite fast.

 

[sapphari]

I'm experiencing the ground loop buzz/hum issue others have reported. Bit tough to characterize as it's sporadic (sometimes nearly silent, sometimes audible from several feet away from speaker). Buzzing is only coming from one channel.

Amp is Buckeye Purifi, connection via XLR. Using remote trigger between Icon and Purifi does not solve the problem. The Buckeye doesn't have RCA, so I can't link the units that way to resolve the issue (as suggested by Bluesound). Swapping orientation of Icon plug into socket (this is possible since both prongs are the same size) didn't resolve it.

Will continue troubleshooting and decide if I need to make a return. Real shame cause the Icon sounds awesome.