Bluesound releases 2024 ICON streamer

[pogo]

@GXAlan
The very good ADC is still missing in your comparison.

 

[pogo]

For me, BluOS and all the possibilities including additional hardware solutions would also be a plus.

 

[Scoobz1]

Still no proper tets published on this ?

 

[DonH56]

<elided>

@DonH56 , can you add some insights to this? Short summary is that the Bluesound Node Icon is a balanced differential source with a floating earth ground. People are getting ground loops with XLR connections which can be homebrewed reduced but not eliminated by tying RCA shields to earth ground, etc.

How does it work when you have a mix of floating ground source with three prong amplifier/active speaker. We usually think of unbalanced connections as being more susceptible to ground loops, but in this case, it sounds like switching to unbalanced connections reduces the hum.

I don't know anything about the Bluesound Node.

Balanced does not always mean fully differential, but even then there has to be a common-mode reference for the circuit to work, and nothing has infinite common-mode rejection. "Balanced" can be implemented with a pair of op-amps that are ground referenced but opposite in polarity, or one active stage with the other side simply a resistor (or resistor + capacitor) to ground that provides equal (balanced) impedance. There are plenty of designs that have poor ground/return implementation, and ground loops can occur with balanced or unbalanced connections. Differential and many balanced designs provide the ability to isolate chassis/safety ground from signal ground but that does not mean it is always implemented correctly. It can get tricky, with both direct and indirect leakage paths inside components, and it is virtually impossible to test all use cases so difficult to test.

Keeping signal ground low-impedance and isolated from other grounds is the solution but not always easy for a consumer (or product designer).

 

[PloddyPastard]

Resolving Ground Loop Noise Issues with the NODE ICON and XLR Connections

The Bluesound NODE ICON is a two-plug power product with no ground. It has a floating ground as it is the preferred grounding style for audiophiles. The NODE ICON does not have the provision to con...

support1.bluesound.com

Looks like they officially said, go figure it out on your own, we aren't changing our "audiophile" design.

That's indeed a somewhat strange solution. Some Amps may even not have RCA at all....or use xlr to rca adapter and keeping fingers crossed.

Btw...have you tried their suggested "resolution" with RCA?

 

[GXAlan]

But then again can't compare 2 manufacturers this way since we don't know their test params.

Right, but I have been able to take the Panasonic UB9000 and Marantz PM-90 that Amir tested (which I sent in) and got similar SINAD measurements using my E1DA Cosmos.

I didn’t save my results but I did match Amir’s for the WiiM Ultra. So it’ll be interesting to see how QRONO affects things.

$330 vs $999

That’s the big one. I actually have it at $270 on sale versus $750 loyalty credit.

I don't know anything about the Bluesound Node.

Just more generically ground loops, and XLR pin 1 when there is no chassis ground. I have read not to tie to signal ground while others say that tying it to signal ground helps reduce noise.

Is there an official standard or best practice?

"Balanced" can be implemented with a pair of op-amps that are ground referenced but opposite in polarity, or one active stage with the other side simply a resistor (or resistor + capacitor) to ground that provides equal (balanced) impedance.

If you look at the Node Icon, they say they have a dual mono DAC design. Since they are using stereo DACs, might they be using the two channels of audio to generate the +/- signal? Looking at the pin outs from the IC itself, it looks like it has separate grounds.

it is virtually impossible to test all use cases so difficult to test.

That makes sense why it seems so inconsistent. Presumably like HDMI CEC, they just test with a few popular products and in house products.

 

[DonH56]

Just more generically ground loops, and XLR pin 1 when there is no chassis ground. I have read not to tie to signal ground while others say that tying it to signal ground helps reduce noise.

It depends upon the circuit implementation, which is unknown in this case (at least by me). Best RFI rejection will be when the shield is grounded at both ends, but raising it at one end to break a ground loop is pretty common. And often indicates a poor implementation at one end or the other.

Is there an official standard or best practice?

I am not sure the standard, though AES has something on it. Best practice with a properly-implemented design is to use a shield plus ground wire with no connection to the pin 2/3 signal lines, but again what works depends upon what the manufacturer did, and that varies. Additionally, it depends upon the transmitter (source) and receiver so how components interact comes into play. Likely not a single answer for all.

If you look at the Node Icon, they say they have a dual mono DAC design. Since they are using stereo DACs, might they be using the two channels of audio to generate the +/- signal? Looking at the pin outs from the IC itself, it looks like it has separate grounds.

Again, don't know anything about the Node specifically, and just don't care enough to try to find out. I am not surprised the IC has separate signal returns for each DAC, but then it's up to the product designer for final implementation. Whatever they did, if safety/chassis ground is not completely isolated from signal return (ground) paths there is a potential loop that depends upon how the Node and whatever it's attached to implement the circuit. It is not just the Node in play here.

That makes sense why it seems so inconsistent. Presumably like HDMI CEC, they just test with a few popular products and in house products.

No idea, but they certainly cannot test with every product out there. HDMI is so loosely spec'd that interoperability is a nightmare (as many can attest). I do not know if there's a consumer standard for XLR connector ground isolation, but even if there is, ground problems are so common that it's practically irrelevant.

 

[pogo]

So it’ll be interesting to see how QRONO affects things.

This is already described in the technical white paper including measurements.
Or what other measurements do you expect?

 

[Galliardist]

This is already described in the technical white paper including measurements.
Or what other measurements do you expect?

The technical white paper, being generous, gives a measurement of one filter. QRONO is at least supposed to be more than one filter. We actually don’t know if that filter is ever actually used by QRONO (a number of MQA filters seemed never to be selected in practice)

The description in the white paper implies that the MQA “triangle” cut off of frequencies is in place by much may be relevant to gamers or HT users. The effect if any is not shown.

The white paper quotes research from 15 years ago as “new”, and much of what it says appears to actually be written about old MQA.

I prefer to wait for detailed independent measurements from an expert.

 

[darth]

This is already described in the technical white paper including measurements.
Or what other measurements do you expect?

 

[pjug]

This is already described in the technical white paper including measurements.
Or what other measurements do you expect?

You wonder why people say Lenbrook agents are posting hon this thread?

 

[darth]

You wonder why people say Lenbrook agents are posting hon this thread?

And here

Switch Minidsp Htx for Bluesound Icon?

Having used the blusound streaming platform before and Wiim, the Wiim just works exactly as you want it to. Bluesound wasn't terrible but I remember it being irritating too. So, rather than "no doubt," what you have is speculation. As it happens, my Bluesound Node Icon is working just as I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[GXAlan]

This is already described in the technical white paper including measurements.
Or what other measurements do you expect?

They want a little of leakiness because they say that only affects test tones not real music.

So… let’s see how leaky it is.

It shouldn’t affect a 1 kHz test tone but it might affect higher frequencies.

Likewise the premium ADC only matters if it’s somehow exposed to the end user through the USB-C connection but I don’t think that’s true. It should be better than the WiiM Ultra but the WiiM should have more ground loop risk due to single ended rather than balanced outputs.

The Fosi ZD3 is two prong power and was less noisy than the WiiM Ultra . The CEC power off support wasn’t as reliable.

You wonder why people say Lenbrook agents are posting hon this thread?

Agreed. @pogo, your posts are super helpful including pointing people to updates on Dirac.

However, you’re so much of a fan of NAD/Bluesound/MQA that it feels as if you have at least some sort of bias.

I guess from Don’s posts, there’s enough inconsistency with balanced outputs that we don’t know if it’s broken or just incompatible but the white paper is subject to bias.

For QRONO, d2a that white paper doesn’t even look at 44.1 kHz where you might run into the biggest problems.

I know you don’t work for Lenbrook, but does anyone in your family or extended family have a potential conflict of interest, such as being a retailer or supplier to Lenbrook?

 

[Rngrsn94]

What a stupid answer they gave, they basically got the design wrong.
It's full of double insulated devices that obviously don't have "hum" issues.

Shit design then, everybody should not buy the Node... then they'll fix the design flaw. What lousy engineers do they have working for them?

 

[sapphari]

Took an Icon home with me today. I have a 60 day full return policy through my local shop which is really nice. Will report back perhaps over the weekend on first impressions.

I'm not following the ground topic super closely but for those who are, Icon is plugged into a power strip that has 3-prong outlets and a 3-prong into the wall. Icon connected via XLR to a Crown amp (for now), which has a 3-prong power cord plugged into the same power strip as the Icon.

 

[pogo]

I guess from Don’s posts, there’s enough inconsistency with balanced outputs that we don’t know if it’s broken or just incompatible

I understood this differently, i.e. the icon is more flexible at this point.

I know you don’t work for Lenbrook, but does anyone in your family or extended family have a potential conflict of interest, such as being a retailer or supplier to Lenbrook?

No.

 

[pjug]

I understood this differently, i.e. the icon is more flexible at this point.

I don't know why you say this. An earlier post said that Bluesound's solution of grounding via RCA did not make the hum with XLR go away completely. If your amp has only XLR inputs it seems the only option is to return the Icon, unless Bluesound comes up with a better remedy.

 

[GXAlan]

If your amp has only XLR inputs it seems the only option is to return the Icon, unless Bluesound comes up with a better remedy.

Right, but it’s not clear if everyone with XLR output and XLR inputs has this problem. It’s unlikely that EVERYONE has this problem but it is clear that you should only buy the Node Icon if there is an in home trial associated with it.

I am not sure if there have been any revisions, if there are supply chain shortages, or if demand is sky high.

Clearly, some people got theirs last December. It’s not vaporware. Bluesound.com in the U.S. claimed that it would ship this week for orders, but it has been updated to week of Jan 20. I ordered mine Jan 2 from TMR, and my understanding is that the retailer is waiting for their next shipment, which they said is “before the end of the month”.

There are clearly people with issues, but there is no clear answer what percent of buyers have the problem.

NAD/Bluesound have poor and stellar measuring products so there isn’t a clear prediction you can assign.

 

[darth]

Btw...have you tried their suggested "resolution" with RCA?

I did not since I already packed and returned it. I don't even have an RCA to plug into. Genelec speakers don't have RCA and nor did I have RCA to XLR cables and frankly I was not gonna attach a grounding to all 3 of my genelecs via their AES connection.

 

[sapphari]

If anyone is having trouble getting an order filled for an Icon, I know that ListenUp.com has 1 in inventory as of Monday this week. They have a warehouse in Denver, CO (USA) and also a few brick+mortar stores and are who have the 60 trial period.

I decided against this, but it occurred to me that one could purchase the Icon, have it measured by Amir, and return it within the 60 days if desired.