Best measuring tube pre amp?

[GXAlan]

As for me, if I have to finish the music creation process by introducing distortion, I have no interest supporting those artists.

That's a perfectly reasonable perspective to take, but then you're only supporting mass-market/industry-backed musicians, even if their recording label happens to be a low-volume boutique audiophile label.

You're missing out on upstart singer-songwriters who may not have the resources to hire the "best" recording/mixing/mastering engineers. Sometimes raw emotion and raw talent is a joy to listen to and enhancing their recording with tubes in the playback chain improves the sound that reaches your ears.

Personally, I'm more interested in the music than the recording.

Adele is a genuinely talented singer, but the amount of enhancement that goes into her albums is impressive and yes, tubes are used in her music creation process.

Tom Elmhirst: Recording Adele 'Rolling In The Deep'

Adele’s second album, 21, has broken sales records all around the globe. Mixer Tom Elmhirst and producer Paul Epworth explain how they created its multi‑platinum lead single, ‘Rolling In The Deep’.

www.soundonsound.com

So, for her albums, you're right that adding extra tube harmonics is a bad idea.

For other talented singers without Adele's industry backing, using a tube reproduction chain can add the harmonics and compression after-the-fact.

 

[GXAlan]

But you are creating your very own sound unique to you.
Keith

Yes! I'm privileged to create my very own sound unique to me!

 

[fpitas]

tubes are used in her music creation process.

Sure. And that's fine, when you're making music.

 

[Chr1]

I find it amusing that so many people here love music that involves valves in it's production but are adamant that it is always awful added distortion in playback. I use both transparent and valve based systems personally and lots of recording's sound best on the valve based system to me. Personal taste obviously.

 

[fpitas]

I find it amusing that so many people here love music that involves valves in it's production but are adamant that it is always awful added distortion in playback. I use both transparent and valve based systems personally and lots of recording's sound best on the valve based system to me. Personal taste obviously.

I simply draw the line between effects introduced in production, vs effects that my playback system introduces. I want to hear the recording.

 

[Chr1]

I simply draw the line between effects introduced in production, vs effects that my playback system introduces. I want to hear the recording.

Me too but often recordings are not great. Don't listen to a lot of classical myself but most other genres the quality varies hugely

 

[fpitas]

Me too but often recordings are not great. Don't listen to a lot of classical myself but most other genres the quality varies hugely

If you like the tube sound, go for it. The best tube amps I've heard sounded just like good SS.

 

[Chr1]

If you like the tube sound, go for it. The best tube amps I've heard sounded just like good SS.

I use a VTL ST-85 which doesn't add a lot of distortion. Makes lots of sub optimal masters sound better than my Neumann KH310s. Since I got the Neumanns, I have been quite shocked at the very average quality of lots of my favourite music from jazz to modern electronic music. They are kinda ruthless, I find!

 

[fpitas]

I use a VTL ST-85 which doesn't add a lot of distortion. Makes lots of sub optimal masters sound better than my Neumann KH310s. Since I got the Neumanns, I have been quite shocked at the very average quality of lots of my favourite music from jazz to modern electronic music. They are kinda ruthless, I find!

Yes, accurate speakers are a mixed blessing. I EQ in just a touch of "warmth".

 

[Chr1]

Yes, accurate speakers are a mixed blessing. I EQ in just a touch of "warmth".

Indeed. Me too. I have only had the Neumanns for a few months but do enjoy switching between them and the valve setup. I am now super critical re the quality of the recording... Definitely a mixed blessing as you say!

 

[4D_Coaxial_Cube]

It’s not as simple as “my ears/brain are better than yours, which is why I don’t like tubes” . It may work just as well to say “my imagination is better than yours so a bit of noise and distortion allows my brain to do a superior fill while others are too rigid and struggle when the music isn’t presented perfectly…”

This is one reason why some audiophiles like “hyper-real” sounds where you can hear the rosin of the bow of a violin or the singer wetting her lips between stanzas when you cannot hear that in real-life with a live unamplified concert.

I find that for classical music, extreme transparency and precision is great.

However for other mass-media recordings, the “La La Land” soundtrack for example, the multitrack recording sounds artificial with a fully transparent audio system. Emma Stone and Ryan Gosling are good but not great singers (obviously they are better actors). Listening to this album on a less accurate system is more enjoyable.

Baudrillard's use of the audiophile concept as an illustration of hyper real is a powerful insight and I suggest anyone into the chase of the finest audio to be had to read what he has to say about it. Human kinds obsession with turning the representation into something better than what is represented is an odd driver for our behavior when one considers the monetary motives and how our species has been entrapped in this downward spiral of hyper reality as presented by the Spectacle/Simulation.

 

[4D_Coaxial_Cube]

Indeed. Me too. I have only had the Neumanns for a few months but do enjoy switching between them and the valve setup. I am now super critical re the quality of the recording... Definitely a mixed blessing as you say!

Im considering the Benchmark AHB2 and bi-amping with a 60wpc tube amp on the HF poles and putting the Benchmark on the LF poles of the Perlisten R7T's. I could then get the damping factor and control of the bass while getting the tube warmth, and optionally I could easily unplug the tube amp and throw on the jumpers so that the Benchmark handles the entire band. For anything classical or electronic the Benchmark would probably be more preferred for the higher accuracy. For rock or jazz I would probably prefer the tubes up top...recording quality would also be a variable. I see a lot of flexibility in this approach and its much more practical than having a tube pre that is either in or out of the chain - requiring more effort to switch back and forth.

 

[Mnyb]

There rarely is a "one size fits all sound good with everything solution" it similar to snake oil medicine if it cures everything from cancer to allergy and nearsightedness . You should be worried if a "cure" fixes things with very differing functional mechanism ie they have noting in common .

Likewise if your going to use equipment as fixed eq you cant change , you may need several system for different kinds of music , maybe one per bad recording with the correct inverse function to the badness of the record ?

This is not effective ? or maybe so ineffektive that it never relaly works , and send you on the upgrade merry go round

It's more effective to get neutral/correct sounding equipment , in fact good speakers setup correctly ( it will be hard to find electronics that actually have a "sound" ).

ANd use some eq software to fix the recordings ? A good old loudness control and some simple tone controls goes a long way if you want to stay analog

 

[radix]

My understanding, if you want the "tube sound" is to do it at the amp stage, not the preamp stage.

I've seen people do the hybrid tube/SS mix. McIntosh has pre-built amps along that design. You'll need a decent crossover and external measurement tools to get the right frequency response.

Have you listened to the tube sound and determined you prefer it? (I've not read the whole thread). You should do that first, IMO. Or, just get the AHB2 and see if you're happy. That's what I have and I'm very happy with it.

Remember that a tube amp needs some periodic maintenance. You need to bias the tubes (some amps can do this automatically) and periodically replace them (depends on hours of on time).

In regards to sound reproduction vs sound production, if an artist wants a tube sound or distortion (and some high-end mics use this "warm" sound), they will put it there. I don't think artists are relying on consumers having tubes to add a needed element to what they want to produce.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Sonic Frontiers Line 1, Line 2, and Line 3 likely measure low distortion and noise. That being said, I never saw a comprehensive measurement on any of them. I had a Line 3 for many years, it sounded as good and as quiet as my transistor gear. The problem is they are expensive, with lots of tubes.

Some measurements of the Line 2.

Sonic Frontiers Line 2 line preamplifier Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements A complete set of measurements was made on the Sonic Frontiers Line 2 in its unbalanced mode, with selected measurements repeated in the balanced configuration. Unless otherwise stated, results shown here are for unbalanced operation. The Line 2's unbalanced main output...

www.stereophile.com

Just for comparison on C-J's were pretty good too.

Conrad-Johnson PV10 preamplifier Measurements

Sidebar 2: Measurements The output impedance of the PV10A at its line output measured about 690 ohms, give or take less than 10 ohms depending on the channel, the setting of the level control, and whether the balance control was in or out of the circuit. The line-level input impedance varied...

www.stereophile.com

 

[Blumlein 88]

I agree with some others, tube preamps don't have much of a sound. Tube power amps do. I've owned several of both. If you want tube sound, get it from the amplifier. Tube preamps don't operate or have a sound at all like the power amps.

 

[GXAlan]

In regards to sound reproduction vs sound production, if an artist wants a tube sound or distortion (and some high-end mics use this "warm" sound), they will put it there.

Let’s make the same argument that if we want 20-20 kHz ruler flat in room, we will have it. The reason we all don’t have flagship Genelec’s in a dedicated, acoustically engineered room is that we are constrained by budget.

In 2019, a place like Abbey Road

Daily Studio hire
Hire is based on a 10 hour day and the costs for the studios are as follows:

• Studio 2: £2,000/day + VAT*

* Set up time / Overtime is charged by the hour.

Engineer fees
Engineer fees range from £500 – £1000 +VAT* / day depending on the engineer and project.

*Overtime is £100/hour

So that’s the recording where you might have a chance to try out different mics not to mention different takes.

Once you have the recording in the gear you want, how much are you paying per hour to have the recordings mixed/eq’d?

Again, the idea that the artist always has the best version of their art on the distributed copy is false. Likewise, the idea that tubes are a fixed distortion box is also a fallacy since it’s pretty easy to have two listening setups…

 

[radix]

Let’s make the same argument that if we want 20-20 kHz ruler flat in room, we will have it. The reason we all don’t have flagship Genelec’s in a dedicated, acoustically engineered room is that we are constrained by budget.

Once you have the recording in the gear you want, how much are you paying per hour to have the recordings mixed/eq’d?

Again, the idea that the artist always has the best version of their art on the distributed copy is false. Likewise, the idea that tubes are a fixed distortion box is also a fallacy since it’s pretty easy to have two listening setups…

I disagree with this. The mixing/mastering engineer knows that it will be listened to at home or in a vehicle. Likely in an untreated messy acoustic environment, but maybe in an environment with something approximating a harman curve (slight bass boost, slight high drop). I've heard of mixing engineers going to their car to listen to the mix to see how it sounds there. There's also a difference between wanting flat response in a recording monitor vs doing a master mix.

I don't think it's that hard for an artist to find their vocal mic. Many studios have tube mics or tube preamps or colored mic preamps. Same with guitar or other instrument amps. I would think someone going to Abby Road studio would know their stuff already. I'm not sure where Abby Road came into the discussion.

Anyway, my point was that if an artist wants a tube sound, it can be added in many ways in the studio. Either through mics or preamps or post effects.

Tubes are not a simple "add this distortion" box. They are non-linear distortion that will depend on many things. That said, I've heard there are some decent digital tube emulators, but they are complex tube models, not a harmonic distortion injector.

If a consumer prefers to warm up what an artist produces, that's their personal choice. Some people prefer a warmer sound.

 

[dasdoing]

get a professional hardware saturator. it will give you control.
or get omething like this if you have a PC in your chain: https://www.freqport.com/

 

[Mnyb]

Im considering the Benchmark AHB2 and bi-amping with a 60wpc tube amp on the HF poles and putting the Benchmark on the LF poles of the Perlisten R7T's. I could then get the damping factor and control of the bass while getting the tube warmth, and optionally I could easily unplug the tube amp and throw on the jumpers so that the Benchmark handles the entire band. For anything classical or electronic the Benchmark would probably be more preferred for the higher accuracy. For rock or jazz I would probably prefer the tubes up top...recording quality would also be a variable. I see a lot of flexibility in this approach and its much more practical than having a tube pre that is either in or out of the chain - requiring more effort to switch back and forth.

Biamp with dissimilar amps is somewhat problematic , they rarely have the same gain so you migth end up mucking up the crossover region in the speakers ? With different Gain in the amps the high and low parts of the speakers will not play at the same volume for the same input ? And biamp passive speakers with similar amps is not a very good idea anyway a waste of amps imho get one good amp .

If one wants to adjust the frequency response there is a better tool for it EQ , use that.

These double terminals are mainly there too sell more expensive speaker cables for biwiring and that to is not a solid idea use one cable per speaker.



Sadly even very accomplished speaker manufacturers has to accommodate “audiophile feelings” and succumb to their marketing departments and add those biwiring terminals, imho they should not even be there .

And if there is something user fixable in a recording it’s very often the tonal balance so again EQ is the tool .